Can you explain the whole Rise x Marie thing for me? I like them being friends thanks to episode 5 of p4ga, but I was never interested in anything further than that.
Hey, my first call-in! Thank you!
There's a lot that I like about Rise x Marie, but I want to start with pointing out that the two of them share very similar interests.
Rise, on the final day of the game if you max her, mentions that she plans on writing her own lyrics to her songs, though she isn't very good at the moment, mentioning her poor composition grade.
Marie, as we see multiple times throughout the game, loves writing poems. She has nine poems throughout the game, and adds a tenth in her dungeon. She loves them to the point she even improvises a poem during her Rank 1, though like Rise she does not feel confident in her skills.
With this, I want to point out the similarity between poetry and lyrics. Both of them are meant to convey evocative imagery and express emotions throughout their work, with Zhang Xueyi from South Central University in Changsha noting that not only are many lyricists also poets, but there is not much difference between poetry and lyrics in certain aspects such as the imagery used.
It is debatable whether the lyrics are equal to the poems because without the melody and other embellishments, the words themselves can be silly. At the same time, it is also said that the boundaries should not be so strict. Poetry and song lyrics are bridged and blurred in practice. Some songwriters had written poems when they were young. For example, the famous singer Lou Reed would combine poems with rock music. Moreover, skills of writing poems can be useful in lyrics writing as well, and some songwriters write poems when they want to create a song. Taking rock music as an example, the rock lyrics themselves can be considered poems. What they are like in poems is that words have liberated themselves from the duty of meaning something precise and concrete. Due to that, words stimulate the imagination of the audience, which indicates rock music has been described as a literary tradition that goes back to romanticism and symbolism, nonsense poetry, and literary modernism
[...]
Lyrics do not have the historical development as poems do, and nor do they have some critics to discuss their forms and contents, such as the rising of Imagism. It seems that lyrics have more freedom than poems because there are no certain demands for them. Therefore, in the aspect of images, except for the history and standard of imagery, no clear difference between poetry and lyrics. Both of them use images to build a corresponding atmosphere that adapts the feelings of the works.
[...]
...[L]yrics without melody are actual poems in a broad sense instead of real lyrics. This is the main point that decides the differences between lyrics and modern poems in contents and forms. A song would be performed in public, so the lyrics must be popularized to meet the demand of the masses. Most of them are moving and use simple words rather than choosing scads of delicate words. Compared with lyrics, poems cannot reach the same effect that songs have because they only have words to build a mental world [11].
There are several examples. Swedish melodic doom metal band Draconian adapted Wordsworth’s poem “A Slumber Did My Spirit Seal”, and that indicates poems can be transferred into lyrics without any movement of the words. Meanwhile, when combined with emotions and melodies, something would change. The outlook of the poem and the lyrics can be different: they do share the same words, but they express so differently; while the poem is created with some emotions and atmosphere, and with musical instruments and stage performance, this kind of atmosphere of a poem can be amazingly presented.
So, there is already this detail present--they are both passionate artists, and I could easily imagine them upon getting closer working together on songs. This was the original spark for me.
And even beyond that, Rise and Marie have a surprising amount in common. I want to point out that both of them suffer identity crises in their lives, which is the driving conflict of their character arcs.
In Marie's case, this is because she literally does not remember who she is. I have a writeup about her in the works, but memories are strongly tied to identity--memories possessed by a person are used to shape an individual's identity, and her lacking these memories robs her of that identity. Stanley Klein researched the relationship memory can have on one's identity, and mentioned two patients: one who suffered anterograde amnesia (and therefore could not make new memories) and someone who suffered severe retrograde amnesia (inability to recall past memories), like Marie. Here is a statement from the gentleman with retrograde amnesia like Marie:
What I realized was that I did not ‘own’ any memories that came before my injury. I knew things that came before my injury. In fact, it seemed that my memory was just fine for things that happened going back years in the past [the period close to the injury was more disrupted]. I could answer any question about where I lived at different times in my life, who my friends were, where I went to school, activities I enjoyed, etc. But none of it was ‘me’. It was the same sort of knowledge I might have about how my parents met or the history of the Civil War or something like that.
The unnamed man (called RB) points out that he does not feel like these memories were his own, and he does not connect them to his identity. Meanwhile, the man with anterograde amnesia keeps his memories from the past:
Strikingly, when episodic memory is partially intact, people retain a sense of identity even if there has been dramatic memory loss. Consider the famous case of H.M., who had a large portion of his medial temporal lobes surgically removed to alleviate seizures. After the surgery, H.M. could not form new episodic memories. But he reveled in telling a few stories about his childhood. One of H.M.’s biographers recounts: ‘He tells of living in South Coventry, Connecticut, where he could go behind the house to shoot guns. He had a rifle, “One with a scope!” he says, always enthusiastic at this point in his story. “And I had handguns too! A .38 and a .32”’ (Hilts 1995, p. 138). The difference here between the child and the man is profound. After surgery, H.M. was no longer capable of taking care of himself, he could not remember whether his parents were alive or dead, he did not know where he was living, and he was, as noted, unable to form new episodic memories. And yet he seems to take himself to be identical with the young man with a .38 and a .32.
Marie, with (supernaturally-induced) retrograde amnesia, comments on this impact on her in her Rank 9, saying that if she returns everything she "borrows," she will not exist. She does not feel she has an identity, and that even her name Marie does not belong to her.
In Rise's case, this is instead because of her compulsory masking that comes with her being an idol. She has to be professional at all times, since it's her job. In Marukyu Striptease, Himiko acts as a corrupted version of the Risette persona all throughout her dungeon, never dropping the act so long as the Investigation Team is not on her stage.
Upon confronted, she complains about having to mask, enraged that she feels there is no way for her to express herself. In the animated series, she summons a bunch of copies of Rise to demand an answer to who the "real" Rise Kujikawa is, further emphasizing Rise's identity crisis that stemmed from the masking that Himiko despises.
Masking can be a threat to the mental health of the individual who is doing such a thing, as going for too long can put stress on them and they become too used to said mask. And when it comes to actors, their characters can exert influence on them in day to day life due to the amount of emotional immersion and occasional behavior changes, leading to there being a blurred line between where the actor ends and character begins. A research paper in support of "de-roling" (that is, breaking the character of an actor to make sure they are not trapped in-character) discusses how people may be stuck in-character and the social, emotional and even physical damage this may create.
In fact, actors who use Stanislavski’s system are encouraged to “live oneself into the part,” and Method actors, particularly those following Sanford Meisner’s version, are encouraged to do much of their affective memory/emotional recall work as “homework” to be completed outside of rehearsal (Carnicke; Krasner). At the very least, the acting process – no matter what acting school it originates from – can lead to an actor being “called upon to give up much of his own identity and to suspend temporarily his own boundaries” (Rule, 53). After a while an actor might begin to confuse his character’s thoughts and feelings with those of his own and begin to have nightmares as his character’s life seeps into his subconscious, or feel he is in some way “possessed” by his character (Burgoyne Dieckman; DeCosta et al; Rule).
Janice Rule, an actor who underwent psychoanalysis, believes
that acting creates recurrent identity crises for actors. She describes an actor friend who took on the cynical attitudes and actual phrases of a character he was performing in a play, and in so doing almost destroyed his engagement to be married. This role confusion was discovered when his fiancée, who was quite hurt by the actor’s behavior, glanced at his script and recognized lines and behavior his character expressed in the play that were identical to the phrases and behaviors he was enacting in his own real life (55-56). Later, this same friend went through a similar experience in a film while portraying a soldier on leave with his buddies. In his personal life he started going on drinking benders with his mates in a mirror version of the actions taken by his character. He was totally unaware of “the depth of his unconscious identification with the character,” until his wife threatened to leave him (56).
Not de-roling (taking time to break an actor's character so that the actor does not accidentally get "trapped" in-character) can have physical as well as social and emotional repercussions. A prime example is the case of actor Philip Anglim who, in playing the title role in the original Broadway production of playwright Bernard Pomerance’s The Elephant Man, developed muscular problems from contorting his body for the role in eight weekly performances. He was well aware of this problem, given that he could not ignore the physical pain that ensued. He took counter measures by soaking his body in Epsom salts, going to the gym to work out, and eventually employing the services of a chiropractor (Smilgis). If he had been alert enough to de-role from the start, he might have implemented a physical and emotional de-roling ritual immediately after each performance in order to prevent muscular problems from developing.
Himiko is trying to convey Rise's fear that she will never learn who she truly is, and that she needs to accept all the different facets of herself, or she will truly never learn where she starts and ends. This is a fear Marie mentions having, clinging to the idea of using memories as a way to develop a sense of identity in her Rank 9 as shown earlier. Himiko is also expressing pessimism that Rise will ever get a chance, as Himiko's mimicry of a stripper, a person that publicizes intimacy, implies that Rise is afraid to take her chance and feels exposed by the possibility of exploring all this about herself. The floor design of her dungeon has eyes in it, depicting how she constantly feels watched and that if she drops the mask for a moment, she will be in danger.
This would be something that the two of them could relate to, as both have had turbulent relationships with identity, even fearing that they did not have one, mainly because they did not have anyone they knew they could bounce off of. They both are afraid by the possibility in their minds that they don't have any identity of their own before developing a more complete sense of identity thanks to the Investigation Team. It's Teddie who points out the similarities between himself and Marie, but the reason Kintoki-Douji attacked in Rise's dungeon was because of how similar Teddie actually was to Rise.
And speaking of bouncing off of others, this lack of identity also leads to both Marie and Rise feeling deeply isolated. Rise, in her Rank 7, talks about how she never wants to feel alone again, and how she felt isolated during her career as an idol, since she never truly got to know any of the people she met.
In Marie's case, she brings this loneliness up in multiple poems of hers, but the main one I want to bring up is Eternal Midnight, where she laments feeling like she can never connect to the friends she has.
I can't catch up to your distant back.
Look! Twilight creeps upon us!
The distance to you is like an eternal night...
And I want to point out that Marie remembered her true identity only after she fully embraced the love of the Investigation Team. I think Rise and Marie would be able to easily understand each other on a very deep level because of how similar their struggles are, even if one is more supernatural than the other. Marie isn’t as good at talking about her feelings as Rise and indeed doesn’t like to express them in public, as shown by the fact that she expresses herself via poems not meant to be seen by others.
Actually, I also think the differences between Marie and Rise work well for their dynamic too. When Marie and Rise are met with the opportunity to socially connect to people on a deep level, they respond totally differently.
Rise pretty much jumps at the chance. She very quickly tries to figure out how to get comfortable as part of the Investigation Team and is apologetic when she worries she comes off as fake. She immediately wants to emphasize that she loves the idea of being friends with them.
Marie, meanwhile, is confused. She does express fondness for Yosuke right off the bat after he gives her a croquette for free, but is surprised when Chie calls herself friends with Marie in her Rank 3. She doesn’t quite know what to do with the idea of friends, even though she does like the Investigation Team.
She expresses this detachment again during the scene where she shares a laugh with the Investigation Team in her Rank 5, she calls the group "[Yu's] friends" when talking about them, even while expressing fondness, because she does not know how to feel about the idea of connection yet.
This is reiterated when she writes about Yu, the friend she’s closest to, in “You Killed Me.” She expresses her outright fear of the attachment she’s developing, but that she still wants to make these connections anyways and doesn’t know what to do about it. She feels conflicted by this opportunity and is afraid to take it, no matter how much she wants to.
You are a murderer.
By your silent smile, by your composed voice,
By your dark eyes, by your bashful fingers
I am slain.
I am a corpse,
Foolish, wretched, happy.
Surely, I'll simply rot away.
My last words?
Adieu, au revoir... mon cheri.
[You Killed Me, Marie's fourth poem]
She does love the Investigation Team as much as Rise does. And like Rise, she doesn’t think that highly of herself either, willing to entirely cast her life away for the sake of the IT, who naturally all object. And when they do and successfully save her, she’s bewildered and question what on earth they gained from doing that… entirely ignoring herself. She only fully embraces her status as a beloved friend to the Investigation Team during the snowball fight right after her boss fight.
She doesn't quite know how to navigate connection and social interaction, and the attachments and trust that come with it. She needs more time and assistance to break out of her shell than Rise, who is very accustomed to socializing due to her job requiring it.
And one thing I want to mention is that after Rise joined the team herself, she ended up helping ease the last member into the team as well. She becomes close with Naoto over their shared relationship with fame, and despite the two being starkly different in thought processes, even shown to confide in each other during a Junes trip on October 13 as Rise questions her own capability as Navigator when she sees Naoto as the more analytical one between the two.
Since Marie also has a lot in common with her, it wouldn’t be too hard for them to understand each other, and Rise could easily help Marie through a social situation she didn’t understand. Rise, thanks to her profession requiring her to socialize frequently, is much more self-confident in social situations than Marie is, and could help her navigate the world around her. This willingness to help Marie navigate the world and develop a sense of identity is exactly what leads to Marie developing an interest in Yu in her romance route in the first place.
And Rise is shown to be very willing to do just that with Naoto. In the club book, she’s shown to often invite her out, which is particularly notable since Naoto, like Marie, is naturally fairly asocial.
Message received from Risette
Plans for bucket parfait tomorrow? [Read full email]
[Page 64, translated by me]
And I want to point out that Rise, of course, found her own identity via bouncing off of others. The Investigation Team were what really made her realize who she was, much like Marie whose development of memories with the team helped her create her identity, to the point parts of Inaba are in her dungeon.
That's what I mean when I say their dynamic writes itself--Rise is a very sociable person and would be more than willing to show Marie around Inaba and hang out with her, and the two share similar interests, which would help them click quickly. I can definitely imagine them writing song lyrics together and Marie realizing how much fun she's having with it, and it leads to the two trusting each other enough to confide. I think the healthiest romances are built upon strong friendships. Though Marie is a bit guarded, she does open up even before her dungeon as shown as early as her Rank 2. Another fun facet is that the two of them aren't used to being in romantic relationships and Rise gets embarrassed with her own forthrightness when actually dating Yu. Though Marie sucks at flirting, which I just think would make things even more fun when she confesses. Seeing them date I think would be very entertaining thanks to their awkwardness and shared interests, I think they would be a bit of a slow burn because of the former detail though. They're learning more about themselves and each other thanks to the relationship, and I think it would be a fascinating story.
