#cindemption

[onewomancitadel]

sorry still mentally arguing with that random agitator... if you want to "disprove" Cinder's redemption (somebody who wanted it but was also mad that it definitely wasn't happening, and was mad at me about it, or something; kind of gibberish), then you also need to appreciate Ozlem and Jaune/Cinder, which this person wasn't doing, just going on and on about not being allowed to feel empathy for Cinder.

Which like, you know, I think in terms of absolute heretical things Jaune could do, that certainly works as one, if we are barred from such a thing, which I don't believe we are.

[marcmarcmomarc]

RWBY Volume 10 predictions - voice cast: Salem and her main agents (Salem’s Inner Circle)

Salem: Jen Taylor

Cinder Fall: Jessica Nigri

Tyrian Callows: Jessie James Grelle

Mercury Black: Yuri Lowenthal

[fadedneonzzz]

What do you think will happen to Cinder Fall at the end of the RWBY series?

Firstly, I think there’s a difference between what I think will happen and what I want to happen.

As for what I think will happen, I think there are 3 strong possibilities. 1 is the most predictable and boring option in my opinion, and that’s death. At this point in the story I don’t think any character needs the accolade of killing Cinder. I’ve seen people speculate that Salem will kill her, but unless she has a backup maiden on standby she’d be shooting herself in the foot. Even if Salem believed Cinder’s lie, I don’t think she really cares at the end of the day because she got two relics, which is more than she has ever gotten before (at least I assume that’s the case). I don’t really see any of the heroes benefiting either because they’ve developed nicely over time without Cinder being there. I fully accept that Cinder could very well die before the series ends, however the problem I have with Cinder Death theories is that people are more interested in who will kill her rather than them speculating on how Cinder’s story will end. They’ve made it clear that Cinder’s character arc is about her, it’s not about Ruby, Jaune, Salem, Emerald or Mercury, she’s basically the villain protagonist. It shouldn’t be about who’s character will get advanced, it should be about Cinder’s story coming to an end.

Another strong possibility, in my opinion is redemption. Now regardless of how you or anyone else feels about Cinder redemption, just know that there’s no such thing as “this character doesn’t deserve redemption”. There’s no arbitrary line that makes a character irredeemable, at the end of the day these characters are fictional and the writers can do whatever they’d like with a character (within reason of course). That being said, I think there’s a case to make for Cinder redemption, there’s plenty of room for her to grow later on in the series. Now I see why people think redemption is out of the question, but there really hasn’t been any opportunities for Cinder to actually reflect on everything she has done. There’s been nothing to convince her that she’s on the wrong path, and none of the heroes have tried getting through to her. She isn’t a dedicated follower of Salem, she’s only there to get power. Honestly, I think Cinder needs to be seen as a person who needs help than someone who needs to be killed. I also think she should be given the choice to reform, because it’s entirely possible she thinks she has no other choice but to be evil. It doesn’t help that she has a Grimm arm grafted to her that Salem has control over. Also keep in mind that redemption isn’t the same as forgiveness, RWBY and co. do not have to forgive Cinder. And I find it very hypocritical of people who want Neo and/or Mercury redemption, but somehow bar Cinder from redemption, either they’re all redeemable or none of them are. Especially since none of them have shown a shred of remorse for what they’ve done.

Last possibility, is independent Cinder. She doesn’t have to be good or evil, she could be whatever she wants. This would require her to remove the Grimm arm either by herself or with Ruby’s help. I think this has an equal chance of happening because while Cinder is far from a good person, she’s not a nihilist who wants to destroy the world. Think of it like a 3rd faction, similar to Raven and her tribe.

In conclusion, I don’t have just one idea of how Cinder’s story will end. She could survive the series, or she could die, it’s hard to tell at this point. And maybe I read too deep into Cinder’s character than the writers intended, but I feel like they’re definitely going somewhere with her character. They invested so much time and effort into her, that I feel it’s leading to some kind of grand conclusion. I just think death is the most boring, uninteresting, and kind of depressing for her story to end like that. Yes you can argue Penny and Pyrrha had tragic endings, but it wasn’t like their sacrifice was for nothing. I think if Cinder does turn good, she should spend the remainder of her life atoning for what she has done, but she should be free to do so of her own volition. I don’t think she should be forced to do it, but she uses her newfound freedom for good purposes.

(Sorry for the long winded answer lol)

[karinta-agogobell-unified]

So I’ve come to a realisation about Cinder.

I’ve been trying for a little while to get inside her head and understand why she feels the way she feels, why she does the things she does, why she is the way she is — and so far, this is the only explanation that has made any amount of sense to me.

Deep down, she still instinctually wants something she thinks she can’t have. Due to the conditioning of her incredibly abusive childhood and early adolescence (as well as the lessons she learnt from her interactions with Rhodes), she believes that love, compassion, and mercy are fake and don’t exist, and that anyone who claims to display those traits is lying in order to get what they want. She has thoroughly internalised this mindset, to the degree that her modus operandi is to casually inflict cruelty onto others in order to get what she wants — and yet it is becoming more and more apparent that a deeply-repressed part of her still wants to be cared for by others. Look at how she reacted to Emerald’s betrayal when Jinn showed her Ruby’s plan: she was, for a brief moment, visibly disappointed that Emerald had left her and defected to her enemies’ side. On some level, she felt a bond with Emerald, despite the screwed-up abusive way in which it manifested itself.

Nonetheless, Cinder is convinced that being cared about by others for its own sake is an utter sham (“the truth is that no one ever loved you”); she simply doesn’t believe it’s possible, because she’s seen no compelling evidence that it’s anything other than a means to get her on the side of the other person.

She only submits to those she sees as posing a threat to her (i.e. Salem, and previously Madame, who instilled that example in her first), because she sees that their “care” for her is ultimately a means to an end. And yet, with Salem, a small part of her probably still hopes that Salem actually cares about her, which is why she hasn’t yet realised that she’s being manipulated and abused by Salem just as she was with Madame — plus this time, it’s subtler and more insidious than Madame’s abuse ever was.

And I believe that it’s this psychological conflict between what she wants and what she believes is possible that leads to her all-consuming drive for revenge upon Huntresses and Huntsmen (as a proxy for Rhodes, who betrayed her and shattered her trust when she was just a child). The utter lack of real trust that anyone ever showed her has taught her that she can never trust anyone unless threats and fear are involved, and the complete lack of any compassion towards her has left a hollow space inside her, emotionally, that she feels she can only satisfy by destroying the things and the people that stand in her way. Since she believes that compassion and care (towards her or otherwise) is impossible, she sees destruction of her obstacles to power as her only option.

But the acquisition of as much power as she can get is nothing more than a repeatedly-applied band-aid over a massive gaping wound in her psyche that’s been festering for decades. And until she learns that the quest for unlimited power, by its very nature, cannot satisfy her innermost instinctual need to be loved, she will not and cannot heal and become a less fucked-up person.

[tempoaryblogformightyjensblog]

I'll be honest one of the reasons I want cinder to be redeemed is just to watch what Ensues

People were really furious Emerald got redeemed

I heard some were mad that Whitley Got redeemed

When they were like, as 'Easy mode' As redemption Arcs get

Cinder Redemption...The Chaos would be insane, Profoundly so. It would reach through the fabric of reality and fill dimensions with anger and discourse

And I would watch it all like-

[marcmarcmomarc]

Potential Volume 10 scene, for @anthurak and @fadedneonzzz

SALEM: What are you doing?!

CINDER: Something I should have done a long time ago, standing up to you!

[onewomancitadel]

For me personally a tragic backstory or explanation of motivations is a justification, because it is important for me to think about why it is that bad things happen, and how they happen, and if they have any meaning at all, not just for the sake of culpability. I find it reassuring to know that there is evil in this world that comes from a place of experience and reason, however misbegotten. Aimless and senseless evil is what really frightens me.

It is not about 'deserving', it is not about moral transaction, it's not about playing criminal lawyer for my favourite characters - storytelling is not about putting on a performance of virtue kabuki to justify to other people that I promise I'm a good person (which itself is a kind of subterfuge bad people can easily perform! People can lie!) - any beancounter approach to narrative is just miserly and soulless.

Notice that the conversation gets squared down simply to culpability - mostly because it is about personal injury, evil character make me mad and evil character hurt my favourite character - which, if you are not playing along with this pseudojustice, you are basically responsible for the crimes of the fictional character because there is no fictional character to meaningfully hold accountable because they're not fucking real.

And it's completely bizarre when people bring real life justice into this because we find excuses for the things we do in life, even without good reason, all the time. Constantly. This is pretty much the one failure of existence, searching for justification when our justification is poor, that most people struggle with - from little things like not picking up rubbish when we walk past it to big things like not intervening when somebody is doing something wrong and you have the capacity to do so. So forgive me for being interested in people who make mistakes, or do wilful evil, for actual real reasons, let alone tedious, selfish excuses.

Empathy in relation to storytelling is not a crime. It's the point. You're supposed to feel something.

[onewomancitadel]

Since I imprinted on them around a decade or more ago I shall probably love Jaune the rough and tough Huntsman who is wearing a bunny underneath his armour and is the Rusted Knight forever and I shall probably also love the baddest bestest meanest cleverest Fall Maiden of all time (Cinder Fall) whose redemption I have unironically been anticipating since the end of Volume 3 forever. I was in fucking high school. I was like I know a baddie waiting to turn good and I knew it on instinct! I still find it funny that her eternal moment of damnation to me was basically like the implicit promise of redemption, lol. V4 intro made me howl.

I think it's very funny that this eventually coalesced into thinking they should fall in love, because it kind of mirrors my relationship with the show; I liked RWBY, even loved it, but I really fell in love with it - really took it narratively seriously - probably around V6. When I knew the Ozlem stakes at play, the answer became clear to me in V7 as Cinder's redemption in the finale was effectively flagged in big bright letters of Ozpin's speech: CAN YOU FORGIVE THEM?

I am not just a shipper. I love them very much. And I love this show very much. I would really like to see it finished, even just to find out I'm wrong, because I think it deserves an ending. But for what it's given me, I think it has been very special too.