#dbh discussion

[edmundtheartist]

The Fandom: "Connor is just an innocent dorky cinnamon roll who needs a hug!"

Literally Connor:

[yeehawpartner131]

i hate how linear early game DBH is. ive been staring at the pause menu in A New Home cuz i just can't bring myself to play it. i've 100% all the early game chapters i just wanna get to the good partttt😭😭BUT from a narrative perspective it's great world & character building. Showing the dynamics between Kara, Alice, and Todd really add to the tense atmosphere of the chapter & Stormy Night. And how Markus is first shown as a caretaker for Carl, running errands for him, administering him his medicine, and things such as. It seems mundane and unexciting from the players perspective, especially on a second or third playthrough, but think about what's really happening. You're given these tasks and objectives, for what seems like everyday, to drive home the idea that Markus is just a machine designed to serve humans, no matter how repetitive and boring it may be. In my opinion it's almost refreshing to see Markus deviate and fight back when Leo attacks him, because all hes known is to obey. It gives a sense of freedom to an android who's been doing the same stuff for god knows how long. And for the player there's 2 chapters we've seen Markus follow Carls objectives. So when I replay DBH and I get frustrated with the linearity of the early game, I will stop and think to myself "Did the devs want me to feel bored? Was this on purpose so I can understand how Markus feels?". I'm writing this at 11:30PM so if there are any grammatical or story errors please ignore them. Anyways feel free to express your opinions in the comments, I love hearing what people have to say about this game!

[daze-stole-ur-milk]

The fact that Josh was a university lecturer gives us a lot of insight to why he valued stability, predictability, and patience so much. To the point where he preferred to be passive and inevitably dying in the long run to being active and maybe dying sooner.

Did he learn to value predictability from his students? To spend more time with the ones who’d come to his lectures consistently? Did he seek out the unpredictable ones and avoid them so they wouldn’t have complaints about him?

Did he value the stability in his routine as a lecturer with a schedule even more once he escaped to Jericho? Who’s actively could not be predictable for their safety.

Did he put in complaints about student behaviors? And did he face negative consequences for it? Is that why he prefers passivity?

[flintt]

DBH Android Race Analysis/Is Gavin Reed Racist?

An analysis done based on a post I’ve seen calling Gavin Reed a racist.

THIS IS PURELY A DISCUSSION. I AM OPEN TO OTHER INTERPRETATIONS AND COMMENTS. IF YOU’D LIKE TO DISCUSS OR EDUCATE ME IN A TOPIC PERTAINING TO THIS THAT WILL FURTHER MY KNOWLEDGE ON SOMETHING LIKE THIS, PUT IT IN MY ASKBOX OR COMMENTS.

TW: This analysis will include the discussion of whether Androids are considered a race within the DBH World, when they may have not been considered a race, and other racial topics such as if Gavin Reed is racist. I did minimal research on the topic and I am speaking based on the experience of being a minority in America and of my opinions.

Again I want to start with the fact this is an open discussion. I don’t mean to offend, attack, or defend anyone with this post for/with bad intentions because at the end of the day this is a discussion on whether a fictional scenario can lead to the creation of a new race and whether a character is racist to this fictional species. I am always open to comments on this post for more opinions, and I want this to be a welcoming and open discussion.

I recently saw a post on Tumblr about how Gavin Reed is canonically racist against androids and I wanted to share my thoughts on the topic because the subject certainly interesting and very complex. In order to debate on whether someone can be racist against androids, we first have to answer the question of whether androids are a race, and more importantly what makes androids a race in the first place.

The Google definitions of race are considered to be: a major grouping of human kind, a group of people sharing the same culture/history/language/ethnic group, a group of set people or things with a common feature or features, etc etc. By Google definition, I’d like to say that androids in DBH could be considered a race. I’m saying could in the sense that androids at some point weren’t sentient, and we as people don’t often refer what we think are non-living things (things that do not have the ability to carry on life processes such as movement, respiration, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli.) as a race.

Personally, I don’t believe androids could have been considered a race until deviancy became a common feature amongst androids because of the fact that deviancy gave androids the ability to properly respond to stimuli and grow/evolve their consciousness. Any time before deviancy, androids may not have been considered a race due to the restraints their programming had on their consciousness, restricting their ability to respond to stimuli and grow from it (ex. a robot who hasn’t deviated wouldn’t have the same interest in bugs as an robot who had deviated would because it’s programming doesn’t allow it to grow it’s love for bugs and respond to bugs as a stimuli in order to process their opinions on bugs).

Now apply that thought process on someone like Gavin Reed, who was born in 2002 and most likely was there to watch the development of androids and their integration into society. The first case of deviancy didn’t happen until 2032, when Gavin was 30. It was possible Gavin wasn’t even aware of that case and even more possible that he was still under the impression androids were machinery or another piece of technology. If he was aware of the first case of deviancy, it may have been likely that anyone who knew was told it was bug in the system. Relatably, how many of you thought the mouse moving by itself on a computer or a phone shutting itself off was just a bug or glitch. Now as much as I can find from the wiki, Gavin dislikes androids. The reason I found for this was because of the fact androids have been replacing people in the working scene. Despite having a prejudice against androids he’s also shown to have a respect for them to a certain extent, shown by Connor during the archive room scene if Connor takes the “calm” or “low profile” route. I also believe during that scene Gavin is still under the impression that deviancy is a bug in the code and not a spark of consciousness, which leads to his recklessness with androids.

All in all, I believe Gavin isn’t hardcore racist but more so ignorant as well as a careless one and has a long way to go in terms of his beef with androids. If we were given as much time with him as we were with Hank, I wonder if Gavin would have learned to move past his prejudice like Hank has. (With the mention of Hank, I’d also like to throw in the question of whether Hank was formerly racist to androids at the beginning of DBH)

If you have your own thoughts, be welcome to share! This is all pure speculation and mostly just to get the wheels turning because I am curious to see what you guys think and this game has a multitude of topics that relate to our real world which makes it extra special to discuss.

[artusmarkus]

CW: Todd Howard, violence, drugs, drug use

Okay. I am willing to bet this has been discussed before. However, please refrain from jumping down my throat for this post. I will be blocking people who act like assholes, make no mistake. (long post good luck its basically a fic at this point)

Todd, as fucked up as he is, can still be a good father.

He shows us the beginning of this if you don't get the gun in Stormy Night (tragic that I can't threaten him and run, but DBH can only have so many different outcomes ig🤷🏽) and you walk near his area in Battle for Detroit.

In fact. It shows in his apology when he hurts Alice. He cries. CRIES. Because he knows his anger is unjustified. He lashes out at her because she's not who he wants her to be. His life isn't as it was. His wife leaving him was likely due to him using, and the fact that they had less and less money together. Addicts can and will lie to you about things just so they can continue to use drugs alcohol or otherwise.

Anyway, I'm willing to believe he started taking her money, too. Todd even briefly being remorseful is a sign that he understands his behaviour is fucked up.

It's the start of something new 🎶

I know he's abused Alice and Kara. Kara doesn't have to like Todd. Hell, I hc her as wishing she blew his brains with the gun she found in his bedside table, personally. But that's Alice first dad. She wants to be loved by him. It's all she's ever wanted.

Todd could make ammends... to actually try and be a better dad. After the Revolution happens, Alice asks Kara if they can call Todd. Kara, at first, rejects the idea completely. Why should Todd have a chance at redemption after threatening them with literal death. Luther convinces her eventually that if Todd is still awful, Alice needs to come to that conclusion herself. But you can't take away her desire to speak to her other dad.

So she compromises. Alice can send a message. Say whatever it is she wants to say, and Todd can't hurt her if he can't directly respond.

They ask Markus, who looks up his number in a registry for them, and he calls Todd to tell him his daughter hopes he is well and that you didn't get caught up in the fighting.

Todd didn't think he'd hear from her. He is shocked she'd consider herself his daughter after everything... she seemed like she had a better family now. Todd realises he's got to treat his daughter properly. Because he'd be lucky to ever have a chance at seeing his natal daughter ever again. This is a chance to fix his relationship with Alice. She must miss him even a little bit... right?

Imagine, if you will, Todd making actual attempts to go to rehab. Attempts to try and get a job again (which is really hard these days, but if Androids control Cyberlife... humans probably won't be trusted to work there for a very long time. Or ever again, tbh.) and androids will need working rights, same as humans. Companies will have to pull their finger out because they can't use slaves to do their work anymore. Things may be machine automated, but you still need someone to man them.... anyway. So, hopefully, that means Todd stands a chance at getting a job.

So as he tries to get better, not just for Alice, but eventually, he realises he wants to do it for himself. He's been misrable for so long... It's worth it to get better. It's worth it to try and build a new life and find worth in yourself again. As he develops, Maybe Alice Kara and Luther move back to Detroit. Alice misses Todd. Kara doesn't understand but she loves Alice and if she wants to see him, who is she to stop her. Maybe she'll hate him if she sees he'll never change.

Imagine how surprised they'd be. To see the house is a bit more fixed up. It's clean, even. They called ahead of time, and his number is in the registry after all. He made them android friendly food to eat. He actually made an attempt!

Of course, he's still going to slip up. Saying a scathing insult at Alice or Kara. (Never Luther because of misogyny and possible unrealised fear led by racism. It happens. He works on that, too. He has to if he wants to be around Luther and make this work.)

Kara is going to be pissed. Alice is going to be hurt. But recovery can look like a glass filling with water slowly. It can look like some of the water being poured out and being refilled and being poured out. It can even look like the slow emptying of the glass before it needs to be refilled once more. But eventually, it gets easier to keep those thoughts away. To be kind on purpose.

He makes an effort to spend time with just Luther and Alice, too. If Kara is at work, then that makes sense. Perhaps she doesn't trust Todd being alone with her baby girl. But it's okay because Todd wants to get to know them all more. He makes an effort to talk about life, and Luther, being the more generous one of the couple, is willing to hear it and talk too.

In fact Luther is probably the one that suggests Todd might be getting better to Kara. Who doesn't want to believe it because what if it's a lie? What if he relapses and decides he'd rather be miserable?

To which Luther says, and we should support him through that. People need help to change sometimes. And he started doing it alone at first. That's a green flag.

So they all try to be a family. Sort of. Todd is trying to be good. Most days, he's better. Sometimes, he has a bad day, and Alice blames herself. Most of the time, Todd knows to tell her it's not her fault he got mad. Kara sees it one time, and it shocks her to her core. He actually owns up to his behaviour now. Luther was right. Even on his bad days, he doesn't want his child to blame herself for anything an adult does ever again.

Eventually, Todd has improved enough to be at Kara and Luther's wedding.

He'd be happy to see her happy, that she found someone like he had once. Alice is excited she gets to be a flower girl and Todd is thrilled by her pure joy. Maybe one day he'll find love again. Maybe he will be able to find love and they can help each other stay afloat when their mental health spirals.

It's been a year since he's used too.

Just. The possibilities of Todd being a better father is a fantasy, but it can happen. I see it being real. People can learn how to not be abusive. They don't have to be forgiven, of course... but... if you want to let them in again, there's no harm in it. I am all for not talking to people if you don't want to, but that's not what this post is for.

I don't know. Sometimes, the 'abuser is evil and will never change' narrative does get dull. I like seeing the good in people. I personally hope the people who were unkind to me in my life get better, for their own sakes. Because as much as I despise them, they deserve to be better for themselves. Obviously, this depends on them actually wanting to change. If they dont then they can get fucked lmao

If people are willing to make other characters redeemable, I think Todd could be too.

[bandicoot88]

Simon’s Body Language:

I find it interesting to note Simon’s body language in these scenes. I think it’s important to address what kind of person he is. His posture is very rigid, reserved and uncomfortable. He only does this when it’s to do with Markus.

Image 1 is Markus failing as a leader. Simon looks at the ground with sadness and crossing his arms as North address’ Markus on his failures. Upon Markus leaving, Simon is the only one to watch him leave and looks as if he wants to reach out, not wanting Markus to go, strengthening his feelings towards Markus even more.

Image 2 is if Markus is killed. Josh paces up and down while North stands fairly confidently. Remember, Simon was pretty much the leader of Jericho before Markus arrived, though it was never stated he was actually the leader, he’s one of the oldest members of the Jericho crew, and a key character alongside North and Josh. He’s not relaxed AT ALL, which is understandable, their leader has just died, but there are different ways of expressing one’s self. Simon looks like he wants to curl up into a ball and die.

Soon after, Simon will then approach North wanting to say something, but can’t find the words, falling back on “Markus would know what to do”, and then defending the man when Josh smack talks him. He does a 180 in a matter of seconds.

Compare him to if Markus is alive and well, he looks as if he’s rubbing his hands together, which isn’t as bad as being in a stiff posture, but it seems Simon is a very hand-like person when it comes to expression, and that kind of person is someone who lacks confidence, is nervous, or/and is restless.

Not much is really known about Simon, but it’s something we can acknowledge and use as we see fit.

[28-stab-wounds]

Who's your favorite DBH character?

I’ve answered this ask before, but I’m happy to answer it again :)

Originally, it was a tie between Kara and Markus. Markus and his awesome Gucci coat won.

You may be wondering, “What about my boy, Connor?”. Well, for one, he’s everywhere so it’s not easy to avoid content involving him. It’s kinda suffocating, honestly. I also don’t want to simply like a character based on the mere availability heuristic. He’s a good character, don’t get me wrong, but I fell in love with Markus’ story first. Plus, his soundtrack is awesome. It’s really zen and somewhat of a breath of fresh air between Kara’s sad, emotional violin tracks and Connor’s dramatic, suspenseful tech-y(?) tracks. Kudos to John Paesano!

And let us be honest here: if we only played the game with Connor as the protagonist, how many of us would choose to become a deviant? If it weren’t for Kara’ and Markus’ stories, we wouldn’t have a perspective on deviants or an empathetic view of them. Kara’s story reminds us of our empathy while Markus’ story spurs us to act in the face of injustice. We both feel something for these characters and this is an important factor. One of the most important in the game actually as it dictates how we shall play the rest of the game.

Humans have a tendency to obey. We often choose to “follow the leader” instead of wandering off from the pack because wandering away means that there are no guidelines for one to follow. It has to do with the survival of the “herd”, the “herd" is what keeps us safe so it behooves us to conform to what the majority has decided is “correct"…lest we be rejected into the cold dark night.

We are entirely social beings and that most of our brains are hardwired to be social. Our image is formed and based around others. Everybody has their own image of what is logical and what is not, but that image is mainly formed by what others tell you what’s ‘normal’.

So, what does this have to do with the stories of the protagonists of Detroit: Become Human?

Think back to the chapter “The Nest”. Prior to this, the player has already encountered two other deviants: Daniel and HK400. By now, the player has already been exposed to a deviant’s core desire: survival.

Deviants just want to live. That’s all.

And upon hearing their distressing confessions and stories, the player begins to feel empathetic towards them and thinks “Aww…I feel bad for you. Is there a way I can get you out of this/let you go? Because you’re not all that bad… ”. It’s this empathy that guides us. It’s what connects us as people, the ability to put ourselves in the shoes of another. BUT, once you find Rupert and the chase begins, that empathy module is thrown out the window.

Or as the kids say: yeeted out the window.  

Any knowledge you have regarding deviants and their desire to simply live is gone. Poof. The empathy and pity felt during your encounters with Daniel and HK400 are gone. You are now in shoes of an RK800, an android specifically designed to track and hunt down deviants, a hunter at its very core. And what do you, as the player do? You chase after your prey. The rush of adrenaline spurs you onwards as you give the chase, all feelings you had for prior deviants forgotten as you bound across fields and rooftops in determination.

Now, you CAN choose to simply not give chase and just stand there while Rupert gets away, but who does? You don’t need to chase Rupert to progress the game, but you do anyway. Despite centuries of evolution, humans are still dependent on one archaic trait to get them through their daily lives: the thrill of the hunt. The hunt, the chase, the capture, and the kill.

But mostly: the chase.

I won’t dwell into the details of it too much, but I’ll ask this:

During the chase, did you stop and think what would happen when you caught up to Rupert?

The short answer? No.

If Hank wasn’t there to fall off the roof and be your foil and ‘reality slap’ (both are a discussion for another day), would you have kept on running? The answer? Yes.

You may be thinking: No, I wouldn’t! Don’t assume such things of me, you don’t know me.

You chased Rupert, knowing full well that given your experiences with past deviants, it wouldn’t end with simple slap on the wrist and a pardon. It wouldn’t end with Connor letting Rupert go after extracting his confession.

Do you see where I’m going with this? Have I lost you already? That’s alright if you answer “No” and “Yes” to the former and latter, I’m beginning to lose my train of thought as well. It’s 1:54 am. I need sleep…

The overarching point is: WITHOUT Markus’ and Kara’s stories, Deviant Connor would be less likely than you think. You wouldn’t have an inside perspective into the lives of deviants. You wouldn’t feel any empathy for them if you didn’t see if you haven’t seen the world from their shoes. That’s why Kara’s and Markus’ stories counterbalance Connor’s. That’s why they’re just as important to the narrative and the message of the game as Connor is to 85% (don’t quote me on that statistic, it’s just a really generous guess, the answer could possibly be higher…or lower…idk) of the fandom.

“BUT WHAT ABOUT HANK? HE HELPED INFLUENCE CONNOR’S DEVIANCY!”, you cry.

“Shhh….” I respond, waving a hand to your face, “he’s a topic for another day.”

Because it’s almost 2am right now and I just want to sleep, but if I go to sleep now, I’ll lose any ideas I have for this response T_T oh well…

I’ll make it quick though. Hank is like a foil(?) to the player…Sort of. I’m too exhausted to talk about it in great detail, but he helps ground us, just like Kara (or Alice to Kara) and Markus (Carl/Jericho to Markus). If he weren’t there to guide us and act as that reality slap, how many of us would have deviated as Connor?

I’m losing my train of thought even more now, I’ll stop for now before I ramble on into oblivion. That’s all I’d like to say for now because I’m too tired to carry on this discussion. 

Here’s the short and sweet answer to your original question: My favorite character is Markus.

Thank you for the ask, anon! Have a good night/day! 

[edmundtheartist]