#ddpersonal

[dornedaily]

To avoid any confusion and to be more accurate, all posts featuring Daenerys, daughter of Aegon IV and Naerys, wife of Maron are now tagged under:

Daenerys Targaryen Martell

Check them out here. The navi page has also been updated accordingly. Posts about current era's Daenerys remain tagged under "Daenerys Targaryen".

[dornedaily]

literally do you ever thing about how tyene sand was done so dirty? like worse than any of the other sand snakes? they absolutely massacred her character- she’s supposed to be innocent looking and instead they ruined her character

The show massacred EVERY Dornish character and everything Dorne.

Tyene even more. The only thing show!Tyene has in common with real Tyene is her name.

Literally, show!Tyene even has a different mother (who is not book!Ellaria that is for sure)

All in all, better to live in a world where we blissfully ignore how dirty they did Dorne in that garbage show

[dornedaily]

Can we really say Arys Oakheart is a worse human being than Balon Swann or the Kingsguard of Aerys II (including Barristan Selmy)? I don’t even hate any of these individuals per se, but in the case of Ser Arys I just don’t see the correlation between “more easily manipulated” and “shittier person” ? I mean, morally he’s clearly head and shoulders above Trant, Moore, Blount, etc.

Arys Oakheart is definitely not perfect (no one is and certainly not in ASOIAF) but he's a far cry from being a "shitty person"! Arianne certainly used him (even though she cared for him by the end) but being seduced by an attractive lady (whom we know by the end of his life he had feelings for so it's not unreasonable to think he was drawn/attracted to her early on) but it doesn't mean he's "more easily manipulated" than the average.

Sure, he has some strong prejudices against Dornish people but because his house/region has had so many conflicts with Dorne over centuries. Doesn't excuse his "[Dornishwomen are] so wild and wanton" for instance (hello GRRM reinforcing the hypersexualization of PoC) but you can understand where it comes from. Again, doesn't mean you have to be a fan of his treatment of Arianne.

Arys has one advantage compared to most Kingsguards: he gets his own POV (and so does Barristan). And they are both very human. Other Kingsguards aren't as fleshed out obviously and they can fall more easily into either "shitty person" or "not shitty person" category. But he tried to keep to his vows and he tried to protect Myrcella from what he thinks is her enemy. He's loyal.

All in all, I fail to see how one can read his POV and think he's perfectly a shitty person.

[dornedaily]

Hello! I was wondering do you have some period fancast ideas for the Fowler twins, Jeyne and Jennelyn ?

They're tough ngl but here are some ideas (none are twins though so you would need to "duplicate" the same actress):

Yasemin Allen

Ece Çeşmioğlu

Pınar Çağlar Gençtürk

Charlotte Vega

Alma Terzic

Anastasia Tsilimpiou

Seyma Korkmaz

Müge Boz

Most of them appear in Magnificent Century or Magnificent Century: Kosem. But if any of our followers has any other suggestions, please feel free to share!

[dornedaily]

Hi! I just wanted to say that I love the fancasts on this account so much. They’re all so suitable and appropriate regarding the Dornish culture. Also I just love kivanc tatlitug for Gerold Dayne so much! I think Burak Çelik could suit him or Gerris Drinkwater or Cletus yronwood too!

You are too kind, thank you so much!!!

Fully agree, I've completed our fancast masterpost with your suggestions! :)

[dornedaily]

Martell/Dornish characters match to mythological creatures for example tyene/siren tyene has an innocent face with sweet gentle voice but she knows her way through with poison which is similar to siren being innocents with sweet voices and using it to lure and kill sailors etc etc 🥰

omg your mind, anon!!! thank you for sharing this magnificent parallel! 😍 (sirens 😍😍)

if you have any more examples of the kind, please share!! that could make its way into a gifset ;)

[dornedaily]

Hi there! Daenerys I really took Maron's surname after the wedding? bc I thought Dorne's marriage customs were different than the Seven Kingdoms, I mean, Nymeria of Ny Sar and Mellario of Norvos didn't took their husbands last name.

Hi! I quickly touched the topic in this meta about Dorne’s consort’s title. Nothing would lead us to think that Daenerys I took on the Martell surname.

It doesn’t have anything to do with Dorne’s marriage customs but simply with Daenerys’s own status. She was royalty, a princess of blood (to echo what they called princes of blood in France), whose marriage “mark[ed] Dorne’s marriage to the Iron Throne” (AFFC, The Soiled Knight). I will copy-paste what I wrote in that first meta:

Daenerys Targaryen (daughter of Aegon IV) married into House Nymeros Martell and is never referred as Daenerys Nymeros Martell. She is the only Westerosi lady we know of that married a ruling Prince of Dorne but it does work along this rule of keeping one’s birth name. Her title was most probably something along the lines of “Daenerys Targaryen, Lady of Sunspear/Lady Nymeros Martell, Princess Consort of Dorne”. Of course, she was royalty so it is very specific: the royal name will always prevail and Westerosi ladies cannot “marry into” the Targaryen family. All non-Targaryen spouses are referred by their birth house name, starting with Elia Nymeros Martell. Other exemples of this include Cersei Lannister (never Baratheon), Myriah Nymeros Martell, Aemma Arryn, Alicent Hightower and Betha Blackwood just to name a few.

To add to this, all Targaryen princesses who married into other houses are referred to as Targaryens. A few exemples include Rhaelle Targaryen (married Ormund Baratheon), Rhaenys Targaryen (daughter of Aemon, The Queen Who Never Was, married Corlys Velaryon) and Daella Targaryen (married Rodrik Arryn).

Even in the text, Daenerys I is still referred as being a Targaryen and not Martell:

The Gardens are my haven, Prince Maron raised them as a gift for his Targaryen bride (AFFC, The Soiled Knight)

One of my ancestors had them built to please his Targaryen bride (AFFC, The Watcher)

All in all, the Targaryen name always prevails, Dorne or not Dorne.

As for Nymeria of Ny Sar, she literally formed a new line combining her name and her husband’s name: Nymeros Martell (what a legend!). We can only guess for Mellario but she’s enough of a high-ranking noblewoman to keep her name no matter what and...Doran and her are estranged.

[dornedaily]

Hi there! Not sure if you've been asked this before, but I'm confused about Dorne's princess/prince titles. Doran is a prince but his wife, Mellario, was never recognized as princess consort. Is because she's a foreign wife? So, what if Oberyn got married Cersei? She woulnd't be his princess consort? Idk, sometimes Dorne seems more like a patriarchal society.

@warsofasoiaf​ and @goodqueenaly​ have answered part of your question in this post :)

I’d add to their points that Nymeria named her husband Mors Prince of Dorne when they married.

The flames lit the coast for fifty leagues as hundreds of leaking, listing hulks were put to the torch and turned to ash; in the light of their burning, Princess Nymeria named Mors Martell the Prince of Dorne, in the Rhoynish style, asserting his dominion over [the region]. (The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships)

The role distribution between Nymeria and her husbands seems to be more clearly delimited. It is Nymeria first, her husbands second. Yet they are also said to be consorts. However, we can assume that Mors played a bigger role than Lord Uller or Lord Davos Dayne (Nymeria’s other two husbands) given his active and leading part in Nymeria’s war. The two were probably on a equal footing, or so we’re led to think so.

Nymeria herself remained the unquestioned ruler of Dorne for almost twentyseven years, her husbands serving only as counselors and consorts. (The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships)

No fewer than six conquered kings were sent to the Wall in golden fetters by Nymeria and her prince, until only the greatest of their foes remained. (The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships)

The title of Prince/Princess Consort remained in use and did not disappear over time:

The wife of King Viserys II Targaryen [...] was the Lady Larra Rogare of Lys. [...] Her father, Lysandro Rogare, was the head of a wealthy banking family whose power waxed even greater following the alliance to the Targaryens. Lysandro assumed the style of First Magister for Life, and men spoke of him as Lysandro the Magnificent. But he and his brother Drazenko, the Prince Consort of Dorne, died within a day of one another, beginning the precipitous fall of the Rogares both in Lys and the Seven Kingdoms. (The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: The Quarrelsome Daughters: Myr, Lys and Tyrosh)

It was when I visited Casterly Rock with my mother, her consort, and my sister Elia. (Oberyn Martell - A Storm of Swords, Tyrion V)

Arianne watched him warily. He is highborn enough to make a worthy consort, she thought. (A Feast For Crows, The Queenmaker)

Unless Prince Doran had attainted her, she remained the lawful heir to Sunspear; the man who married her would one day rule Dorne by her side. Arianne could only pray that her rescuer would prove younger than the greybeards her father had offered her over the years. "I want a consort with teeth," she had told him when she refused the last. (A Feast For Crows, The Princess in the Tower)

"Because I knew that you would spurn him. I had to be seen to try to find a consort for you once you'd reached a certain age, else it would have raised suspicions, but I dared not bring you any man you might accept.“ (Doran Martell - A Feast For Crows, The Princess in the Tower)

Elia was her cousin, but half a child, and Daemon Sand... things had never been the same between her and the Bastard of Godsgrace after her father refused his offer for her hand. He was a boy then, and bastard born, no fit consort for a princess of Dorne, he should have known better. (The Winds of Winter - Arianne I)

The question thus becomes whether or not there is a tradition of Dorne’s ruler naming his/her spouse Prince/Princess consort or if that title is automatically granted. In the aforementioned post, @goodqueenaly​ points out that Aliandra Martell named her husband Drazenko Rogare Prince Consort. But at the same time, we’re told numerous times that Arianne’s husband will be her consort, no matter what. So what is it?

My guess is that there is indeed a tradition of naming the spouse Prince/Princess Consort, even though the title seems to be a given and is granted automatically. It also seems that that said tradition is important enough to be mentioned (in order to obtain and assert legitimacy?) when the consort is foreign: Mors was a foreigner to Nymeria, Drazenko was from Lys.

When it comes to Mellario, she is only referred as “Lady Mellario” or “Lady Mellario of Norvos” and not consort. My guess? Two points need to be put forward:

Although they are still married, Doran and Mellario are estranged and she’s back in Norvos. It’s no secret. I bet this has its importance. (think Princess Diana before/after her divorce: her title changed from “Her Royal Highness The Princess of Wales” to “Diana, Princess of Wales”) It would be a slap in the face of Dorne and the ruling of Dorne to have someone retaining the title of Princess Consort even though she’s not even there and hasn’t been for years. There is some responsibility that comes with being consort, after all.

Mellario is a noblewoman from Norvos. Norvoshi nobles seem to be extremely proud: the high city of Norvos where the ancient nobility lives is ringed by mighty stone walls. It is not impossible that Mellario did not want the consort title so as to retain her own Norvoshi noble title. It could also be that she did not keep the consort title when she left Dorne for Norvos.

However, given that Mellario is foreign, if there is a tradition of having to name the spouse consort, that tradition would be necessary in her case. Meaning that she ‘at best’ no longer uses/has the consort title and ‘at worst’ retained her Norvoshi title over the Dornish one. Both possibilities would explain why she’s not referred as Princess consort in the timeline of ASOIAF events.

Apart from Nymeria’s husbands being her consorts, all of the other consorts we know of (we critically lack info on the historical line of Martell rulers and GRRM is 100% to blame and even more his misogyny/racism which seeps through: think Unnamed Princess of Dorne, the unnamed daughter of Nymeria who succeeded her, what was the blood relation between Mara and Morion Martell, etc.) are men. But since we have Nymeria’s example, I'd say that the lack of knowledge on consorts and consort title in Dorne comes from the general lack of Martell historical info and GRRM’s male focus rather than Dorne being a patriarchal system in itself (GRRM’s intention is for Dorne not to be as patriarchal as other Westerosi regions, having in mind the subversion of traditional tropes of the medieval fantasy genre, although he can fall short of his own intention.)

So what if Oberyn had become ruling Prince and married Cersei? I think she would have gotten the consort title automatically. Why do I say that? When Arianne says she wants a consort with teeth, we have just learned about her proposed suitors over the years. None of them are Dornish but all come from the Westerosi continent and yet they are referred as becoming Arianne’s consort had she married any of them. Therefore, Cersei would be in a similar situation than any of Arianne’s Westerosi suitors: as a Westerosi, she would hence gain the consort title automatically. 

Thanks for the interesting question!