#dower

[une-sanz-pluis]

Prompted by his ‘exceeding affection’ Henry conferred on her [Jeanne | Joan of Navarre] the large dower of 10,000 marks (£6666 3s 4d) and many other lavish presents, while as the surviving menu shows the wedding banquet was wildly extravagant. Given the judgement of Agnes Strickland that Jeanne’s ‘besetting sin’ was avarice and the fact that this remark has coloured later characterisations, it may be as well to interject at this point some brief remarks about her finances as queen before continuing an account of her life. Since 1275 English queens had traditionally enjoyed a dower of £4,500 p.a., though Queen Philippa, Edward III’s consort, eventually had a regular income of more than £7,000 and Queen Isabella, the estranged wife of Edward II, acquired the enormous sum of £13,000, though even this pales into insignificance if compared with the 140,000 francs p.a. that the French queen, Isabeau de Baviére, Jeanne’s contemporary, was currently enjoying. Nevertheless, given the severe financial difficulties of the Lancastrian crown, the king’s generosity at this juncture was at the least imprudent. It prompted much contemporary criticism, fuelled a wave of xenophobia that had been growing since the beginning of the reign and added to general criticism of the king’s rule. The crisis came to a head in the three successive parliaments of January and August 1404 and March 1406, though the last, after managing to reduce the size of Jeanne’s household and to purge it of ‘aliens’, finally conceded that she should have the 10,000 marks ‘faisante come autres Roignes ont faite par devant par loustell du Roy’. Ideally this income was to come from regular sources. In practice, it often proved impossible to find the full amount from the estates which Jeanne had been assigned...

Michael Jones, "Between France and England: Jeanne de Navarre, Duchess of Brittany and Queen of England (1368-1437)", Between France and England: Politics, Power and Society in Late Medieval Brittany (Ashgate 2003)

[blackboar]

It is said that Elizabeth's pension, land, and expenses in York were very low, resulting in her often having to borrow money from others for a few pounds. Her personal wallet often only had a few pounds. Henry VII embezzled the land of the York family, and Elizabeth's sisters had no dowry and could only rely on the help of the queen. Henry VII gave Elizabeth very few gifts compared to other English kings, and how was Elizabeth's situation compared to other English queens and other countries? Is this true?

Wow, my first question ever! Thank you :)

Well, I need to tag @richmond-rex who's far more a Henry VII-Elizabeth of York expert than me, but I'll give my answer.

Elizabeth of York's finances were more than most of her predecessors a sensitive subject. Her marriage wasn't conventional as she was badly needed to legitimize her husband. Hence her treatment was to be even more sensitive than the treatment of a classic queen, usually of foreign origin. Perkin Warbeck and his entourage knew this, as he wrote in his manifesto alongside many grievances alleged mistreatment of his sisters, including Elizabeth.

Henry VII had a vested interest in having a queen capable of maintaining her rank because she was the bridge between him and the followers of Edward IV, who won't tolerate any perceived or actual mistreatment of their late ruler's daughter. Henry had a bumpy road in ensuring Elizabeth's funding as he inherited empty coffers from Richard III. Elizabeth Wydeville's early (or forced?) retirement in 1487 might have been a way to ensure her daughter's finances.

We don't have the greatest sources for late medieval times regarding finance, but we know that Elizabeth's holdings were significant. She did enjoy the traditional estates of English queens (around 10 000 marks), followed by numerous help and loans from her husband that weren't repaid. He also bought her numerous gifts (horses, jewellery, etc...). Elizabeth of York wasn't poor but she wasn't massively endowed either. We aren't sure whether there were moments of financial shortage for Elizabeth considering finance medieval bookkeeping mostly records spending way more than income. There could have been moments when her finances were strained and it's true that Elizabeth died in 1502, right when Tudor finances started to skyrocket. I do not know where you saw that EoY had less gifts from her husband compared to her predecessor. If you have a source, I'm interested! Otherwise, it's normal in medieval times to make small loans as people often didn't have cash immediately on hand and there could be short time of deficit. What we have about her finances and her patronage shows that she wasn't badly treated. As this issue is political, another proof is the reaction of the political community. Former Yorkists didn't complain about her treatment and didn't see her as mistreated, which is proof of good financial treatment. Her probable good relationship with her husband is another proof considering they wouldn't be so devoted toward each other if there were money issues. Recall that dysfunctional royal marriages impact their financial matters and vice-versa, from Isabel of France to Catherine of Aragon. I do not know how Elizabeth would compare to other queens, but she wasn't underfunded for her English predecessors and successors. She had more wealth than her mother, and slightly less advantages than Margaret of Anjou (who had tax franchises but was in a completely different situation) but more cash.

So my conclusion is that she wasn't financially mistreated and could maintain her rank. The idea that she was stems from Henry VII's rapacious reputation and accusations made by failed pretenders to separate Yorkist loyalists from Tudor rule.

Again, thanks for the question!

[fieriframes]

[Entitled to her widow’s dower At common law.]

[lofihipbot]

lofi hip hop beats to dower to

[jamesdhanjal]

...

He's see everything wrong with the world in my eyes.

The disbelief spills out and he breathes silent curses to the open air.

He can't hide the pain anymore he's too old for fairytales.

He knew that beloved darling couldn't be rescued forever.

It's was only an illusion anyway, that was his greatest secret.

As he stands to hold me back and follow his path.

A gift or a curse is just a matter of perception.

On days to come, I will want to untie that.

[goodqueenaly]

How do dowries work when marriages take place within a family? Like when Joanna married Tywin, or Lyarra married Rickard? I suppose that's really an off shoot of the question, is the dowry paid for by the house or by the bride's Father, and what does that mean when cousins marry?

Dowries in Westeros appear to be paid by the head of the House. In most cases (of the comparatively few we have, at least) that would mean the father of the bride: Lyonel Corbray’s new wife came with an immense (and dynastically pleasing) dowry courtesy of her “wealthy Gulltown merchant” father, Argilac the Arrogant offered Aegon Targaryen “all the lands east of the Gods Eye from the Trident to the Blackwater Rush” as the dowry of his daughter Argella, and when Littlefinger is talking about the Harry-Sansa match he brokered, he boasts that the dower he offered for “Alayne” was even larger than the one Lord Lyonel collected. However, fathers are not always the ones responsible for the dower in Westerosi marital bargaining. “Fat Walda” Frey happily commented to Catelyn that “[m]y lord grandfather offered Roose his bride’s weight in silver as a dowry” and so she was chosen (doubtless because Papa Merrett had nothing to give himself). Jaime promises Edmure that if Roslin gives birth to a daughter, he’ll “see her well dowered”, since she would be a ward of Casterly Rock (and would in any event, at least if Aunt Genna got her way, be married to a Lannister-Frey to bolster their flimsy Riverrun inheritance). Historically, Yandel writes that Daeron II “paid the dowry that Aegon had promised to the Archon of Tyrosh, thereby seeing his half brother Daemon Blackfyre wed to Rohanne of Tyrosh as Aegon had desired”, although Daeron was only Daemon’s elder, legitimate half-brother.

But for many of the cases of cousin marriage, and certainly the two cited in the ask, I would suspect the gain would be more political than monetary. GRRM once stated that while Tywin’s marriage was in part a love match, it was also designed to consolidate the Lannister family tree and prevent struggles over Casterly Rock in the future. I suspect Rickard and Lyarra was at least partially motivated by this as well: with the descendants of Cregan the One-Day Hand fighting one another for several generations to become top dog (or, I suppose, wolf) at Winterfell, a marriage between the first cousins once removed would nicely cut down on more Stark claimants to challenge Rickard’s line’s rule in the future. I also think a similar scenario happened with the marriage of Shella and Walter Whent: although Shella was Lady of Harrenhal by right of birth, she might have been married to Walter to keep Harrenhal in the family and shore up the claims of a woman ruling in her own right. In such cases, I think the idea would be to look for the political gains of consolidating potentially competing claims, rather than increasing the family coffers. (Apart from say, someone like Alys Frey, whom I assume married Jared because of a lack of other options as a Frey even lower-ranking than Walder’s ever-increasing brood.)

[une-sanz-pluis]

Humphrey duke of Gloucester died on 23 February 1447. His widow was barred from receiving any dower or jointure on 3 March. Some idea of the speed with which his lands were dispersed can be obtained from the entries of grants on the patent rolls. He had made very ample provision for Eleanor Cobham. Had she lived and been allowed to receive her dower and jointure she might have been a power in the land comparable to Jacquette dowager duchess of Bedford...

Bertram Wolffe, The Royal Demesne In English History: The Crown Estate in the Governance of the Realm From the Conquest to 1509 (Routledge 2020, first pub. 1971)

[fartburger29]

test pages/ dower and the orb

verryyy sketchy orb…and sketches…! Is this canonical????? Maybe…(not)