#egregori

[flowerofantiquity]

May you hear every song in the forest, and if ever you lose your own way; Hear my voice like a breeze whisper soft through the trees.

[flowerofantiquity]

*Egregori twins wreck more than acceptable*

Two: Egregori, no!

Two: (whispering) We talked about this!

[grumpylokeanelder]

Question: How do you tell the difference between a Deity and an Egregore? (A powerful, sentient, independent thoughtform)

Anonymous said to grumpylokeanelder:

Is there a distinct way to tell if the entity is a deity or a egregori/spirit? I honestly don't mind either, but if He's the latter I want to know how or what I can do to protect and care for Him. He's been around since I was young and has saved me and watched out for me countless times, even after I grew frightened and pushed Him away for a good 10 years, He's never left and was just waiting in the background. How do I tell if it's not Him just conveniently pretending to be a deity to suit me?

Dear anon, This can be a bit difficult to tell. A Deity has a lot more power at their disposal, a lot more attention/larger consciousness and an ability to split that consciousness into smaller pieces to interact with many things at once, more knowledge and experience. Deities also (as far as we know or, perhaps, as far as we can remember) are generally not human-created, while spirits starting out as thoughtforms certainly are. (I say generally because there's going to be some arguments about the creation of particular Deities, apotheosis of particular humans, etc.) Egregori and thoughtforms can also have different power levels among themselves, too, so it's really sort of a sliding scale. I generally have egregori filed somewhere close to "minor landvaettir" or "skilled and self-aware poltergeist". It's difficult to get a good feel of the power differentials and limitations unless you've run into an egregore, a Deity, and a non-independent thoughtform. If your particular spirit was alright surviving on his own for 10 years without care, you probably don't need to worry too much for him. The best way to figure out whether he's telling the truth about his status as a Deity is to ask a lot of questions and keep track of whatever limitations you observe.

[pettypunani]

Visit Original Link

Leap Wishes / Egregori

[grumpylokeanelder]

Hi, sorry to anon but not on tumblr. I'm wondering if you know of similar examples to the anomalous dream series I had during an unsettled, transitional episode of my life. There were very brief meetings with someone, always different (blokes from metal bands I liked) but recognisable from the dream's after-effects (feelings of peace/happiness/being loved all next morning). Hypothesis: subconcious-made mental construct?

Dear Anon,If it was not just a, more or less, normal dream that incorporated subconscious needs to try to comfort and stabilize yourself during this period, it could be a construct. Some people are very adept at making them without realizing what they’re doing.Constructs usually aren’t permanent and don’t turn into anything more sentient and stable unless particular actions are taking over a period of time. Without maintenance and extra work, they fulfill the function they were built for and decompose until they are gone.Given that constructs are generally rather weak as well as being non-physical, they’re most useful for simple and non-physical tasks - finding objects, standing guard, relaying messages, or sometimes bringing emotional or psychological comfort because of the feeling that one has company. They can get damaging if they’re not built in a well-rounded way, in the same sense that one sees in AI/robots-gone-wrong sci-fi movies, which is generally why you see so many people being jumpy and insisting that servitors have built-in destruction dates or get dissolved before they gain intelligence and sentience.

[grumpylokeanelder]

Question: RP, Media Portrayals and Deities?

yaminekotsuki asked grumpylokeanelder:

So I've seen a lot specific to Loki about people that are also fandom and media portrayals, but not anyone else. (And I haven't seen much about RP.) As someone that RPs a lot...well, I'm just worried about accidentally attracting the wrong kind of attention (especially since that's why I'm afraid of learning runes. ...I'm just a very fearful person). Are any gods actually kinda touchy about media portrayal? At least in your (or anyone that reads this's) experience.

Dear yaminekotsuki, The reactions I've seen range from "this is a useful leverage and recruiting tool" to completely ignoring the portrayal. I've yet to see a Deity get actively angry about a media portrayal; their devotees are another matter. A bigger concern that I've seen is the formation of egregori: if a media portrayal is not really like the Deity in question, having a lot of attention and emotion and energy thrown at that character idea can start building something in actuality. The end result can be a spirit that's healthy and well-rounded (but not a Deity), or it can be completely out of control, which is where you get a lot of the horror stories and magicians yelling that constructs, thoughtforms, and egregori always have to be put down.

[grumpylokeanelder]

Question: Could you point us towards more information on egregores?

Anonymous asked grumpylokeanelder:

Could you point us towards more information on egregores? Its a concept I've been struggling with understanding for sometime, despite having interacted with one belonging to a magical partner. Something about the way he's been explaining it hasn't been clicking and I haven't been able to find anything I grok in my own research. Thank in advance for any assistance!

Dear Anon,

It's very difficult to find good, solid information about egregori and thoughtforms out there. I'll be answering based upon my own knowledge and experience, for the most part, so... UPG warning and all that. The word Egregore was first used by the French poet Victor Hugo, and the meaning of the word (as he used it) was extremely vague. The word first started to be applied to thoughtforms/energy constructs by Ceremonial Magicians  (particularly the membership of the Golden Dawn).

Egregore is often used by other people to refer to a powerful thoughtform that has been constructed by a group of people. Said group has poured an amount of energy and emotion into a particular thoughtform or idea and it starts to take on a life of its own, perhaps have a certain amount of awareness and sentience, and some limited abilities. (So, to use some simple non-occult examples: one could argue for the existance of Uncle Sam as an egregore of the USA, Mickey Mouse potentially being the egregore of the Disney Corporation, etc. You have a bunch of people pouring focus into the same idea and image, which helps "power" and "solidify" the egregore's existance.) My personal definition of the term is a bit different. I use it to refer to a particular level of sentience and power with these types of beings. For me, energy constructs are the lowest level (a bit like a computer program or a robot, non-sentient and only capable of simple tasks, and usually of very limited "life span"). Thoughtforms are the next level up - capable of more complicated tasks and some amount of smart interaction. They have flickers of sentience but are still highly dependent on their creator(s) to feed and maintain them and propagate their existence. Egregori are the highest level, where they have started to take on a life of their own, can maintain their own existence (more or less), can hold intelligent conversations, and have a great deal more power than created beings of the lower levels. If energy constructs are like simple, mindless robots, egregori are like human ghosts or poltergeists, with all of their complexity and their own distinct personality.

The being that you get at the egregore level, whether group created or created by an individual, is about the same. It's "easier" for groups to pour sufficient energy, emotion, and focus into a created being and make one at that level faster, but I feel like there are certain problems that pop up with that type of creation. Because you have a bunch of people collaborating on the creation (whether intentionally or if creating such a being by complete accident), everyone is going to have a different vision and perspective. The pieces may not fit together very well. The ideas may be very two-dimensional, which could result in a disturbed and unhappy spirit. I tend to regard these constructs as being similar to, say, the creation and development of a child. Just like you can screw up during a child's development and cause them all sorts of problems during their adult life, you can screw up an egregore during their formative stages. And if you do, they are your responsibility. There are a bunch of scare-posts out there instructing people that constructs/thoughtforms/egregori are dangerous and that their creators need to keep them stupid, restricted, and dissolve/kill them within a set short time period or else "terrible things will happen". I've had mine for years, most of them made by accident while writing fiction. My life is just fine. None of my egregori have tried to kill me or drive me insane or possess my body or any of the other horror stories you see spread around. My personal suspicion is that the horror stories come from thoughtforms that gain sentience, realize the horrible things and restrictions their creators have hard-coded into them, and they get fucking angry. And honestly, if that's the case, I really don't blame them for being pissed off at their creator. Thoughtforms aren't something to make for shits and giggles. You end up with a being that's like a human ghost. My opinion, but if it would be a shitty thing to do to another human, you shouldn't program it or do it to an egregore. Just like you wouldn't get a puppy for a couple of weeks, get bored, and get rid of the animal, you should not make an egregore to see if you can, play around with hir, and then destroy hir or let hir die because you're no longer invested. Also, don't treat them like pets or robots once they get smart and independent. They'll get resentful. Treat them with respect and you'll have a much better experience. 

At low levels, thoughtforms can be given simple jobs - helping you by acting as lookouts, being messengers, etc. At higher levels, you may start to have difficulty telling them from a human ghost or a vaettir - they may be a companion, have complex conversations with you, make purchase requests of you, make noises or move objects (moving objects is rare because it takes a lot of energy, but it's happened with one of mine), etc. If you are working on creating an egregore by yourself, how long it takes will depend in part on whether you have a natural knack for it or not, but it will take awhile. My first took a little less than a year to really gain sentience, and that was with throwing energy and emotion and focus at him every day for a few hours a day, and I have enough of a natural knack that I created him by accident (while writing a story).

If you have more questions, please feel free to ask. I don't mind talking about this subject. Further Reading of Possible Interest (I cannot vouch for how good these are, as I just skimmed them and found them to be less full-of-shit than most of the web materials you can find on thoughtforms and egregori): Egregores and Astral Constructs

The Egregore of a School Wikipedia: Egregore On The Magical Egregore (using the definition of "group thoughtform", mentions working with thoughtforms for doing "shadowwork" and fixing ego problems) Sidenote: I don't use the word tulpa to refer to thoughtforms, as this is a term specific to Tibetan Buddhism and Bon. As I am not an expert in either of those paths or how tulpas fit into that framework, I am uncomfortable with using that word. Just because the concepts may appear similar does not mean that they are the same, and besides, the words construct, thoughtform, and egregore work perfectly fine for having discussions about these sorts of spirits. Don't ask me about tulpas. I am not the right person to ask.  

[grumpylokeanelder]

Question: What does the term horsing mean? And what is an egregori?

thatonemermaid asked grumpylokeanelder:

What does the term horsing mean? I think I know but I'd like clarification.. and what is an egregori? It's not a thoughtform/tulpa, right?

Hi thatonemermaid, 'Horsing' has become the standard term used to describe full deity possession. One's consciousness is squished way to the back of one's head or pushed out entirely (for a temporary period) and a deity sticks a bit of hir consciousness in your body and controls it for a period. The 'horse' (normal owner of the body) does not have control during the possession and often cannot see or hear what's going on. Many times the horse has absolutely no recollection of the experience - it's a complete blackout. This is different from other "degrees" of possession, such as shadowing and aspecting. Horsing is at the "100%" end of the scale. Egregori, thoughtforms, and constructs are all the same thing, but I use different words depending on their complexity, sentience, and independence.

I use construct for beings that are essentially like energy robots with a limited lifespan, complete dependence on their creator, and that contain no sentience. 

I use thoughtform for a being that's a bit more complex - some thinking capability, but still very dependent on its creator for existence. This can also be a "baby" form of an egregore.

I use egregore to denote a being that's gained some measure of independence (or complete independence) from its creator and has gained a goodly measure of sentience. A being at this level would be at about the same level as a ghost or lesser vaettir. Egregori also can be constructed beings that are created by groups, so you can have the spirit of a company, the spirit of a country, the spirit of a particular coven, etc. Egregori can arise without a conscious effort to build them - many are created by accident.

I don't use the word tulpa because that is specific to Buddhism and Bon. Since I do not have the relevant training in those traditions, I don't feel comfortable using the term.