#epic analysis

[shadebloopnik]

I know this is probably either super suuuuupper obvious or im just reading too much into it, but i LOVE how Jorge changes his voice according to the song in the Ithaca saga

Like yes, we've already acknowledged the difference between the monstrous tone dealing with the suitors vs the airy one he uses with Telemachus, but its MORE THAN that.

If you'd listen closely to how he sings with Telemachus, there's just something different about it, like Jorge is singing in a way that makes him sound older. I suppose this is to help differentiate them too, considering how much Jorge and Mico sound alike, but like, you can hear it right? How his voice has the weight of age in it? Its not super obvious, but its definitely there.

The difference is made so much clearer the moment he speaks to Athena. Like, the difference in tone between his

"Go, tell your mother I'm home, I'll be there in a moment" to Telemachus and his,

"Show yourself, I know you're watching me, show yourself" the shift in tone and modulation of voice is SO GOOD?

He sounds so YOUNG to Athena and I love it.

When he was speaking with Telemachus, he was a father, a father who was way for 20 years, weighted down by the passage of time and it shows in his voice.

But then he turns to meet Athena, this beautiful, immortal Goddess, and its like he was back to his early years. Back to the days where he was her Warrior, training, learning, unburdened by the years. 20 years has passed and yet to this being of whom time holds no power over, he was as young as when he'd taken that boar.

[flicklikesstuff]

They were just men-

(Analytic ramble below, idk if you care: ⬇️)

I firmly believe that people who unironically believe Ody hates his crew for what they did, sacrificed them out of spite, or thinks they deserved their fate has listened to the musical with their ears closed.

I can see him being mad at them initially but over time, Odysseus comes to acknowledge that he has also failed them.

In the Thunder Saga, he literally begs Zeus not to make him choose. They may have mutinied (which was reasonable), but Ody never wanted them to die. It’s just like how Eury and the men bandaged him up even after he sacrificed six of them.

Ody’s reasoning was “I have to see her,” NOT “You brought this upon yourselves.” His decision wasn’t stemming from anger but desperation. (Which makes sense that he’s worried for his family after Tiresias literally says he sees his palace covered in red.)

In the Vengeance Saga, is where it’s the most obvious that Odysseus doesn’t hold ill will against his men. In fact, he takes accountability for eroding their trust and straining them far beyond their limits because he was so hyperfocused on returning home asap.

In “Dangerous,” Odysseus openly admits that he was INDEED selfish. He was only thinking of HIS family. HE had one goal in mind. Ody doesn’t think the crew just died of their own stupidity, he believes he did them dirty too.

And I would like to mostly attract attention here in “600 Strike”

You’ve heard the argument: “Oh if only Eury didn’t open the windbag. Odysseus must want to kick his ass for prolonging the journey and killing 500+ men. Good Riddance”

To which I say, WRONG!!

Sure, Ody must’ve been pissed hearing the truth. But in the end, after probably some thinking/reflecting in Calypso’s island, Odysseus blames the 500+ deaths (and by extension, the remaining 43 men) NOT in Eurylochus’ hands, BUT POSEIDON’S.

And before you say, “Maybe, but Poseidon only killed the 500+ men. The rest were killed by Eury’s disobedience in killing Helios’ cattle.”

Nope. Not in Ody’s eyes. His song said 600 men in total. Not just the 500+ men.

“But the opened windbag-“ contains Poseidon’s storm that HE summoned to stop Ody’s crew. If Poseidon didn’t summon it, the stupid windbag wouldn’t even be needed nor opened at all. And it was Poseidon sinking the other ships that lead and forced Ody to think fast and have his remaining men go through the events of the rest of the sagas.

He also says “Look what YOU turned me into.” Like he’s saying Poseidon made him think that Ruthlessness is the only way and as a result, he has gotten apathetic to the ones on the ship with him that he cared about. Making him sacrifice men who also had families like him.

……….

By the end of the Vengeance Saga and upon finally reaching Ithaca, Odysseus doesn’t primarily and solely (if at all) blame Eurylochus for the sht they went through. That’s mostly on the Sea god. If anything, it hurts him more that he was driven to make the decision of killing his other best friend and family.

The funniest irony to me in the Epic fandom is that some people will keep claiming their precious baby girl did no wrong when Odysseus himself LITERALLY accepts being at fault.

And the most likely scenario if Ody ever knew about the bullcrap treatment given by the fandom to Eury?

“KEEP MY BROTHER’S NAME OUT OF YOUR FCKING MOUTH-“

[strawberry-souffle]

who i think each lyric of scylla was referring to! (you are welcome to debate this with me)

“deep down, you hide a reason for shame” = applies to both odysseus and eurylochus. odysseus is hiding the fact that 6 men will die there, and eurylochus is hiding the thing with the wind bag obviously

“deep down, you know that we are the same” = i think she’s talking about odysseus, cause, y’know, he’s the monster rawr rawr rawr

“leaving them feeling betrayed, breaking the bonds that you’ve made” = she definitely sounds like she’s talking about eurylochus here. for obvious reasons. but she also might be slightly foreshadowing mutiny here as well, when odysseus breaks eurylochus’s trust

“there is no price we won’t pay, we must do what it takes to survive” = odysseus, cause he’s doing what’s necessary for himself to get back home

“deep down, we only care for ourselves” = hot take, i don’t think she’s talking about both of them here. no, i think she’s just talking about odysseus. i love ody and i don’t think he’s purely selfish—but…i think scylla would think he’s purely selfish. besides, he’s the one doing the selfish act in this song. everything eurylochus does is for the crew (aside from opening the wind bag lol…), so he’s the opposite of selfish

“deep down, we’re lonely demons from hell” = well this one’s a bit different. she says “we’re” demons from hell, so she’s probably referring to like. everyone. the humans and the monsters. all demons from hell, i guess. how pessimistic of her

[a-bottle-of-tyelenol]

I love reading Eurylochus analysis but I don’t see people mentioning the beginning of Puppeteer all that often.

Eurylochus starts that song by immediately trying to tell Odysseus about what he did. Immediately. I know we like to characterize Eurylochus as cowardly (mostly because that’s how Jorge describes him and how he’s described in the Odyssey), but I think it says a lot that Eurylochus didn’t try to hide or pretend as if this hadn’t been his fault. He didn’t wait for Odysseus to confront him about it or try to avoid taking responsibility. It’s rather brave imo that he tried to say something and only didn’t because his captain ordered him not to.

I think a lot about the timeline of EPIC and how entering the lair of Scylla likely wasn’t that long after Puppeteer. Odysseus says they’ve been away from home for “about twelve years or so” and then there’s the obvious discrepancy of Odysseus telling Circe the same thing— explained away by it being a simple mistake on Jorge’s end. If we go by the likelihood that it hadn’t yet been twelve years when they met Circe and that Ody was lying, there’s a rough two-ish year period before Eurylochus actually tells the truth.

To some, this might be indicative of his cowardice, a show that he wouldn’t actually tell the truth and would prefer to hide away his greatest mistake for as long as he can manage.

I disagree. I think this could indicate a couple other things, though; namely that this is proof Eurylochus changed his perspective and decided to listen to Odysseus. Mutiny could only happen because Eurylochus realized his mistake in not believing Odysseus not just once, with the windbag, but twice when Odysseus went to save their men on Circe’s island. Three strikes, you’re out and Eurylochus is not that kind of man— side note: it isn’t hypocritical to change your viewpoint and then criticize someone for adopting your old one btw, it’s just how people function.

Different Beast does imply this a bit, but I think the fact that Eurylochus waited so long to tell Odysseus about the windbag is much more blatant. After all, Odysseus told him to wait, and he did. To me, it seems like Eurylochus read between the lines of Ody’s order (go make sure the island is secure, there’s only so much left we can endure) and took it to mean “wait to tell me when things have settled and we aren’t on the brink of dying”.

Which leads to the second implication, why did Eurylochus choose this moment? Obviously, he didn’t know the nature of Scylla or the danger that they were in, but what about this moment in particular left Eurylochus feeling secure enough to tell Odysseus? Well, the obvious answer is the ruthlessness Odysseus showed in Different Beast showing that they’ve reached that point of power and being able to defend themselves even from monsters that have slain so many sailors.

But another option could be the idea that Scylla was their “last stop” before going home. It’s a bit unclear if this remains true in EPIC, but in the Odyssey, Scylla and Charybdis are right next to each other and the trick is that you have to pick your poison— do you want to die to the whirlpool monster or the six-headed one? What is clear in EPIC is that Ithaca is just past Charybdis, meaning that Scylla, in theory, could’ve been their final stop before reaching Ithaca had Mutiny not happened. There is a very real possibility that they might not have gone to the first island they found if Odysseus hadn’t been knocked unconscious. They still might have just because they were hungry, but it can be difficult to tell which is fate and which is the result of man’s actions.

Either way, I think that a lot of people tend to gloss over the fact that it’s very apparent Eurylochus was going to tell Odysseus what happened as soon as he could and only didn’t because Odysseus told him to wait. It’s a very interesting aspect of his character to me and I think it reveals a lot in terms of his character motivations and how it contrasts to Odysseus’ perception of him throughout the show.

[meraki-yao]

EPIC the musical: Athena's Philosophy and Character Development

I have a very different take on Athena and Odysseus' moment during "I can't help but wonder" than the other opinions I've seen. After investigating and thinking about it, I realised I think I have a different understanding on Athena's character.

The take I mainly see about that moment is that Athena and Odysseus switched mindsets. And while yes, their mindsets vastly changed from where they were during My Goodbye, I don't see it as a switch.

See, when it comes to Athena telling Odysseus to kill Polyphemus, it isn't about being ruthless. Ruthlessness was never the focus of Athena's philosophy.

Her philosophy, is absolute logic and rationality.

She is the goddess of wisdom and strategy: her domain is using smarts: planning and plotting. Those things rely on logic. In fact, during her first meeting with Odysseus, the reason she found Odysseus as a potential protege was because he outsmarted her with reverse psychology.

And in order to focus on the logical, factual aspects of situations, you need to be rational. This is what Athena was pushing, as seen in "Have you forgotten to turn off your heart? This is not you" in Warrior of the Mind, and "You’ve grown soft, your dead friends can attest; Put your emotions aside" in My Goodbye.

Empathy is an emotion, and Athena deems that a hindrance.

But then you get to the wisdom saga, and from "We'll Be Fine", we are told that Athena's fall out with Odysseus has haunted her ever since, to the point where she can't sleep. And Telemachus, in turn says that perhaps by helping this old friend, both of their lives can be better. Note that at this point, Telemachus doesn't know that Athena's friend is actually his dad, all he knows about this friend is what Athena told him.

And that is an act of compassion, an emotional act.

Yet somehow, that brings comfort to Athena, so she does as he suggests, and pleads for Odysseus' life.

And I've mentioned part of this in my essay on God Games, but if we look at each level Athena completes, we can see that for the five Gods, she uses logic to persuade all of them, but almost fails on Aphordite's level. Aphrodite, the Goddess of Love, which is an emotion.

But when her rationality and strategy enraged Zeus, she can't do anything in the face of his anger, because he won't listen to reason.

Then she thinks of Odysseus and Telemachus.

And uses the thing she learnt from them: emotion.

Her final plea to Zeus, is nothing more than "Let him go, please". There's no elaboration or explanation or rebuttal. It's just four words.

But she's desperate, and sad for her friend.

And that's what convinced Zeus to help. Not as the king of Gods, but as a father fulfilling his daughter's request.

If we look at it step by step: Athena's sympathy and affection for Odysseus led to her final lines of God Games, and Zeus' sympathy and love for his daughter led to him eventually agreeing.

Odysseus was freed because of the empathy of two Gods.

I truly think this moment was what fully changed Athena's worldview.

So when we get to Athena and Odysseus' reunion, I don't see it as Athena asking for anything from Odysseus. I understand it as her reflecting: "If we all held each other with a bit more empathy", it turns out that at the end of the day, the best way to resolve conflict is empathy and love. That overrides any logic or strategy.

Odysseus, despite everything, agrees that this is the best world for everyone. All his ruthlessness and rage in beating Poseidon and killing the suitors came from his unending love for his family, if anything he fully embraced pure emotionality in those two battles. He just doesn't have it in him to make the whole world see it like he used to.

This is actually Athena and Odysseus coming to an agreement.

[alexwasbored]

EPIC ramble cuz I gotta practice writer's effect for school

pulls up a 200-slide powerpoint presentation Athena's verse: so on the surface, Athena is showing how during their time apart, she has learned the mercy Ody was referencing to in Remember Them ("When mercy is a skill more of this world could learn to use"), while Ody has taken the Warrior of the Mind mindset to its greatest extent, to the point of ruthlessness, and now that Athena has learned this mercy, she feels she's at fault for Ody becoming the monster, a not-so-good person.

Implicitly, Athena is asking Ody if he wants to be her student again, since while yes, Athena likes Telemachus, he will never be Odysseus, and Athena is in so much regret that she messed up so horribly with Ody and wants to try again. Very, very long ramble below the line VV

Ody's verse: on the surface, Ody is showing how he gets that that world where mercy is a skill more people use exists because after all, he's the one that said this to Athena. But he can't see that world anymore, because of 1) He is already the monster. He's gone too far, he can't go back. 2) He's home again, and he definitely is not going anywhere else ever fucking again. 3) he's already old, and he's mortal.

Which very convieniently leads to the implicit: Odysseus is not a god like Athena. Ody is mortal, and he's already like 50-something by the time he's home, he knows he isn't gonna live long enough to see that world so he is indirectly declining Athena's offer to be her student again, to be her warrior of the mind again. Because he is not spending any more of his precious, limited days trying to make the world a better place, when he has his world right here, with Penelope, with Telemachus

Very well.

Ohhhhh boy. You can hear Athena's pain in these two, little words. Why? Because Ody is her favorite mortal, and as I said before, Telemachus will never be Odysseus. And the regret Athena feels for My Goodbye that she tries to make up for by asking Ody again, he declines. So she will never be able to try again. She will never be able to see what could happen if she didn't make that mistake. She will never right her wrong. And she has to live with this for… millennia.

Telemachus and Penelope's songs aren't sad, more relief (kind of, it's 3 AM man go away) So, so much relief, that tears prick your eyes. Because this is Odysseus' happy ending. Odysseus's. The whole royal family's happy ending. They get to spend the rest of their lives until the day they die in happiness (there is no war in Ba Sing Se, there is no Telegony in the EPIC fandom)

Not Athena's.

Athena, an immortal, made the 'foolish' mistake of befriending a mortal, because mortals cannot live forever, and when they die, the god that befriends them are the ones that bear that pain forever. Ramble over I'm gonna sleep now

[fish-condition]

Today on: I’m being insane about Scylla and the sirens in Epic again

The ways Scylla tells the crew to suffer are the same way the sirens suffered:

Drown in your sorrow and fears

Choke on your blood and your tears

Bleed 'til you've run out of years

I continue to maintain Scylla is karma for their cruelty. “We are the same you and I”