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Transcript for Episode 117: Interview with Erin Entrada Kelly

Episode Duration: 40:48

JENN: Hello and welcome to the latest episode of the Minorities in Publishing podcast. For new and returning listeners, you may know you can find the podcast on Tumblr at Minoritiesinpublishing.Tumblr.com or on Twitter @Minoritiesinpub and literally wherever you listen to podcasts.

So welcome to the latest episode. And as always, I am honored and excited to have the latest guest, Erin Entrada Kelly, New York Times bestselling author, who has been awarded the Newbery Medal and the Newbery Honor. And she is coming at us this year with a new book for young readers, Those Kids from Fawn Creek.

Welcome, Erin, Happy New Year.

ERIN: Happy New Year to you. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited.

JENN: Oh, I’m so happy to talk to you, because you've been a little prolific, no?

ERIN: You know, I try.

JENN: [Laughs]

ERIN: I'm addicted to productivity. So I should have a burnout any day now. Until that happens. I'll just keep writing books.

JENN: I respect it though. But also, that's something I do want to tap into. Maybe I'll ease into it, rather than just come out straight at you with it. Has it been that you've released the book almost every year?

ERIN: I've released a book every year. Yes.

JENN: Whoa.

ERIN: Yep. I know.

JENN: That's bananas. And impressive.

ERIN: Thank you. Thank you. It's a little bananas, yes.

JENN: I'm just going to ask because that just blows my mind. [Laughs] I work in publishing, I know you know, publishing is not quick. It can be super quick sometimes, like mind blowingly quick. But in general, it's not quick.

ERIN: That's true. Generally, it's not quick. But I think that in my case, a few different things lined up in a really great way to make it possible. And one of the things that happened was I actually signed with Greenwillow Books, my imprint in HarperCollins. And my editor, I believe it was maybe 2012 that I signed with them. But Blackbird Fly, my first book, did not come out until 2015. So I had those years in between, and I'm always working on the next thing.

You know, I think that's one of the best ways to kind of survive in this business, is to always be working on the next thing. So during that time, I was already, I had another book ready to go already. I'm already thinking about the next book. So by the time Blackbird Fly released in 2015, I already had the second book ready to go and was already thinking about my third book.

I'm always kind of thinking a few steps ahead, just because that's how my mind works. I'm just, my brain is constantly, like, thinking of ideas and stories. And, you know, so I think that those kind of factors lined up in my favor. I'm also a pretty fast writer. And I think that comes from, I have a journalism background. And I think that that has kind of lent itself to that, if that makes sense. So I'm a fast thinker, I'm a fast writer, I'm a fast reviser. So all those reasons, it just kind of lined up that way, it just kind of happened that way.

JENN: I'm with you on that, because I tend to work on things at the same time. So I might work on three different long or short term projects at once. So do you do that? Or really is it, I have to finish this, and then I could start on book two, and then I could start up book three.

ERIN: Typically, I'm a person who works on one thing at a time. But now I've gotten to this place where I have so many different projects happening at once that I can't really do that. I still try to do it as much as I can.

But for example, I have my books for early elementary readers now, right, Marisol Rainey, the Marisol Rainey series, which I also illustrate. So I'm working on that in between the longer books. But you know, honestly, I'm still almost always focused on one project at a time. I will say that. Just because it's hard for me to switch back and forth between projects. So I really do focus on one thing at a time. It just so happens that right now, it's a lot of things at different chunks of time, if that makes sense.

JENN: And so like you said, your first book that got published by Greenwillow was Blackbird Fly, and that came out 2015. And so as we're saying before I pressed record, I remember this book very vividly because it's such a pretty cover. It's very purple. I mean, there are lockers on either side and the main characters in the middle, but they're coming, you're coming at them from like a back angle.

Not only is this such a lovely cover that stands out, but there was such a big, like, oh my god, like Erin Entrada Kelly, writer from the Philippines writing for young readers. Oh my gosh, and being what We Need Diverse Books, it was like we were like, sharing the heck out of that on social media. Do you remember what it was like kind of coming on the scene, especially like, this is my first book and this is kind of the conversation around this book?

ERIN: Oh my gosh, do I remember? I do, it’s such a wild time. So it had been like I said, about three years since from the time I signed with the publisher till the time it came out, which

felt like an eternity to me. And you know, it wasn't as if I sat down and thought, oh, well, there's this movement happening, because the movement wasn't officially happening yet, right? Like, We Need Diverse Books name hadn't been into the ether yet, right? So I'm like, sitting there, and I'm writing this book.

And it was the first time– so I've been writing since I was a little girl. And all my books reflected the books that I read as a little girl, which were, like, Sweet Valley High, and Judy Blume and all this other kind of stuff. So when I sat down to write Blackbird Fly, I thought, well, I'm going to try to write like, from my own experience, I'm going to try to pull from my own experience. And I did. And Apple, the main character, happened to be Filipino American, and having, like, this kind of cultural struggle with her mother, but that was very much in the background of the original draft.

And I discovered when I started submitting it to agents and querying, that the thing that I thought people would respond to, which was Apple's love of music, was not the thing that they were craving. They wanted more about her background, and her struggles with her mother and the cultural differences that they had. And I thought, that's so interesting, because that was the thing that I thought no one would be interested in. Because, you know, as you know, and as many of us know, those books didn't really exist in the way that they do now, when we were growing up. So I had no reason to believe that people thought that was even interesting. So then I just kind of leaned into that more.

And by the time the book came out, um, it had been through several revisions, of course, with Greenwillow. And by the time the book came out, it kind of was on the cusp of this official movement. You know, of course, there were always voices before this official movement pushing for diverse books. But whenever it launched, it was just kind of very serendipitous, you know. My book just happened to hit that same year that the conversation really took off in a very big way.

And it was, it was terrifying. But it was exciting. It was all these different feelings, because one of the things that terrified me so much was, I'm writing about my experiences growing up in Louisiana, as the only Filipino in my neighborhood and not having a Filipino community or, or an Asian community, you know, in the bigger picture as well. And, you know, is this, do I now have to represent like every Filipino American experience, you know? I had that fear. I had a fear of, you know, I remember an early reviewer on Goodreads, because, of course, I read all my Goodreads reviews, said, this book just doesn't seem realistic, because there's no way that this girl would be the only Asian in her whole entire school. That's, I just don't believe that. And I don't believe that these kids would treat this girl this way.

JENN: What? What?!

ERIN: Yes, I know, I know. And they're like, well, these bullies are unrealistic. This just just doesn't ring true. And I just remember thinking– Jenn, I had this weird thing where I was like, oh, my God, you know, I wasn't thinking like, well, obviously, that's not true. Because I was writing about my own experiences, right? Instead, I was like, oh, my God, I wrote a book that didn't ring true. I wrote, I wrote a book that didn't represent the community. Instead of sitting there and thinking– and eventually I did, of course– instead of sitting there and thinking, wait a minute, I was writing my story, so obviously, it's true. You know? It's just a weird thing it does to your brain, because I'm thinking, oh, I inaccurately portrayed the community. And then I thought, wait a minute, I'm part of the community. And this was my experience. And, and the reviewer was someone who lived in, I’ll never forget this, they lived in San Francisco. And I thought, well, of course, their experience growing up in San Francisco, they probably can't comprehend this little Filipino girl being the only Asian in her school, but that's exactly what happened. So it was such a strange, exhilarating rollercoaster ride of a debut year, I have to say.

JENN: Oh those Goodreads will do you in everytime. [Laughs]

ERIN: [Laughs] I know, I know. It's so true. You know, they say don't read your Goodreads reviews, but I do, especially when my books first come out because honestly, Jenn, it's not to like, punish myself or praise myself. But I want to see, like sometimes people have valid, like, when the ARCs go out–

JENN: Yeah this is true. Mmm hmm.

ERIN: Some people have valid thoughts and I want to address them before the book is actually published, if people are reading the ARC. So it was a whole thing. It was a ride.

JENN: I feel like there might be a site that does, that posts ridiculous Amazon reviews, where it'll say, I don't normally like short story collections, and then I bought this short story collection and I didn't like this either. [Laughs] It’s like— one star. And you're just like, what?

[10:00]

ERIN: I know, I know, it cracks me up, I don't understand it. And you know, I have seen ones where there's this one particular reviewer who, who keeps buying and reading my books. And they're like, I don't like any of her books. She's hated every single one of them. And I'm just thinking, kind of in the back of my head, that's okay. You know, I don't like every book I read either. But I do have to wonder, why are you still buying my books? [Laughs] I mean, obviously, you don't like them.

JENN: Right? And verified purchase. [Laughs] But it’s like, okay, get those royalties, Erin, get them. [Laughs]

ERIN: I’m like, hey okay. Just keep buying it and it's fine. It's fine, whatever.

JENN: It’s like, oh you hate me? What are you doing? [Laughs]

ERIN: I know. I mean, personally, me, if I don't like an author, I just don't read them anymore. But you know, to each their own.

JENN: Wild. So wild. Oh, my goodness.

So then after Blackbird Fly, you're like, doing it again, in 2016 with The Land Of Forgotten Girls.

And then, so does it become, I think a big question for some people is, does it become easier? And I feel like that's also a very broad and maybe perhaps unfair question. But as you publish more, do aspects of being published get easier? Do aspects of, like you said, like reading reviews get a bit easier? You know, engaging with audiences, revising. Are there elements that, like, several books in, that you've just like, okay, I found this flow for me, I know this is good for me. I know how to do this now.

ERIN: I think that's a great question. And I'll say, for the most part, yes, it does get easier. The writing part doesn't necessarily get easier. But the writing process, you know, I know what works for me, what kind of process works for me. I kind of know how my mind works and when it works best, just because I've been doing it for so long. But I was writing, you know, as well before I was even published. So I had kind of a head start.

But other things that get easier are– the publishing business, as you know, can be very confusing and vague from the writer’s perspective. And there's so many things you don't know. And the more you publish, the more things you learn about how publishing actually works. So that, that part gets easier because I don't have a million questions that I had when my first book came out. Um, engaging with readers, I'm active on social media. So I do that anyway. So that's always been easy for me, because I love that part of the job. So a lot of it does get easier.

I think the thing that is tougher is I want to make sure that I'm always writing the books that I feel strongly about, that I want to write that convey what I want to convey and that are my truths. And my concern is I don't want to also write the same book. You know, I want to constantly challenge myself to write something new and different. I wrote a fantasy, one fantasy, it's kind of an outlier. I wrote a historical fiction, because I want to be the same me, but also better, you know. Constantly challenging myself to do new things. So from that perspective, I think it's, I wouldn't say it's harder, but it's more of a challenge.

I don't want to just publish books just for the sake of publishing books. And I also want to publish better books, you know, I want each book to be better than the last or at least different from the last. So that's the challenge. That's the trick.

JENN: And is there something, like a main takeaway that listeners, because a lot of them tend to be writers and or young publishing professionals who listen, especially, that authors should know? Because I'm an acquisitions editor, currently, and I always kind of over [Laughs]

explain things, but it's to give authors I work with context. Because I'm like, I need you to understand how much paperwork I have to do when you decide you can't deliver this book. And it's fine. But also, like, let me tell you this, because this is what happens when this happens, or this is what happens with this happens, or this is the mind frame of this department or things like that. And it really is, it's just like I just want them to understand publishing, because it is a business and we do care. But it is a business end of day.

ERIN: Yes.

JENN: Let’s not forget. [Laughs]

ERIN: Absolutely.

JENN: So I don't know, maybe, like, about touring or about, like, being proactive. Because I think that's also the biggest thing is like, writers write a book. And it's great, and we're great. Yes, product out there. Woohoo. And then it's like, you gotta sell it. And it's like, how do I do that? [Laughs] You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, that's our job as publishers to help you sell it, but you’ve got to sell it. Like you as author have to.

ERIN: Yes.

JENN: And that usually is like the big schism of, you know, businessperson, creator.

ERIN: Yes, I agree. And I think that as far as how much the writer should know, or will be helpful to know, I think, I think that the challenge for all you people on the publishing side is that it's different, right? Because some writers, like me, want to know everything. I want to know, every nuts and bolts, I want as much context as humanly possible. And some writers get intimidated by having too much context. So, you know, it's, it can be difficult to know how much to reveal, how much not to reveal.

But also, I think publishing professionals forget what they know. In other words, I know that when my books were coming out, people were using terms that I was not familiar with. And I didn't know what a bookplate was, I didn't know, like, very simple terms that publishing professionals, I think, just assume everyone knows, because it's the language they speak all the time. But debut authors, I didn't know what a book plate was, I knew what a signed book was. But I was like, a book plate? I'm like, picturing some kind of, like, plate. I didn't know, you know. And that seems obvious now. But back then no. And you know, there's a lot of authors too, who, before they debut, they don't know what an ARC is, they don't know what the ARCs are for and who they go to. And it's all these different kinds of things. And I think that's where agents can play a really helpful role, right, because they can kind of fill in the blanks.

I also didn't understand, when I started out, how the editor is not just the editor, the editor is also the representative of your work and kind of your intermediary in all things publishing, I didn't understand that I didn't understand how important sales and marketing teams were in acquisitions. You know, I just, I had no knowledge. And I think it helps to have that context. And as far as, like, sales and marketing, I think this can be so stressful for writers. And I've seen so many of them burn out on this concept of selling their book.

And one thing that I've learned that has worked for me, and how good this advice is, I do not know, but I tell writers, the best way to sell your books, to embrace this business, is to spend your time on things that genuinely bring you joy.

So when I started out, I saw all these writers producing book swag and bookmarks and postcards and all this stuff. And I thought, okay, well, that's what I need to do to sell my books too. So I got all this swag done, I get all these boxes of bookmarks and postcards. And I very quickly realized that I really don't like swag. You know, I like other people's swag, you know, like their bookmarks and things. But I don't like producing my own swag for my own work. I don't like distributing it. I don't like doing magnets, I don't like handing them out in book signing lines. It's just not something that I enjoy. I don't enjoy designing them. There's really no aspect of it that gives me joy. And some writers love it, which is great because they produce amazing swag. But it's not something I enjoy doing. If you spend your time doing something that you don't enjoy, you will burn out so quickly because this business can get so exhausting.

So I try to channel my energy to things that I do enjoy. I enjoy being on social media and interacting with readers. I enjoy doing school visits, I enjoy doing podcast interviews, I enjoy going to speaking engagements, you know. And of course, I enjoy writing, obviously, but that's how I think of sales and marketing. Because I kind of feel like you can't go wrong if you do that.

Another thing is, I would say the best way to sell your books, and yourself, is to celebrate and support other authors. That is so important. I mean, you should be doing that anyway, because it's a good thing to do as a human being. But involving yourself in the writing community and uplifting other people. I mean, there's really no way you can go wrong with that, right? And inevitably, it comes back to you in some kind of way, in some kind of amazing way. So that's kind of how I approach sales and marketing of my own work. Whether it's good or bad, I don't know. But I think it keeps me somewhat sane. I think that it's important though, when we talk about pushing our own books, is to remember that that's part of it as well.

It's a community and, and it's hard to sell books, it's hard to break through the noise of all the new books that are out there. But if you have a community around you, who will support you, who will share in your stress, who will boost you up, I mean, that plays a big part, in my opinion, in sales and marketing. You know, it's not like the sexy numbers. But you know, it's important.

JENN: Especially for young readers, I feel like, like, we're here for the people these books are about. [lAUGHS]

ERIN: Yes.

JENN: You know what I mean? It's very different in the adult realm. And it's similar and different at the same time. But I just feel like when you're writing for young people, especially for and about, it's like, there is a lot more kind of selflessness. [Laughs]

ERIN: I agree. I think so too.

JENN: Yeah. So you were saying like after, you know, Blackbird Fly and then 2016 happens, and then you have your third book come out. And that wins a Newbery Medal. You were saying that sometimes it's like, you want to make sure each book is distinct, is its own, is not repeating itself. So how do you write the next book after winning a Newbery Medal? [Laughs]

[20:03]

ERIN: Well, I tell you what, Jenn, I already had finished that book, so. [Laughs]

JENN: Nice! [Laughs]

ERIN: I told you, I am always working a book ahead. So I actually, that book was already written, thankfully, because I didn't have the Newbery messing with my head. But honestly, I don't think that would have happened anyway, because I am very much– I think this is a good thing and a bad thing about me is– I'm very much like, onto the next thing. Like I said, I'm very forward. And I think that that can be a hindrance, because, you know, you need to take time to self reflect and think about and celebrate and all the great things that have happened to you. But I'm always like, okay, what's happening next?

So I won the Newbery, which was obviously life changing, and incredible, and amazing. And obviously, the pinnacle of achievement, right, for children's writers. But I was also like, okay, now, now what? Now onto the next thing. So I had that book written already, and the Newbery didn't whisper too much in my ear. It didn't mess with my head too much in a way that I think it understandably can do, you know, when you win a big award. I think that's for a few reasons. I think, you know, I'm glad it wasn't like my first book that won the Newbery, I think that would have been really difficult. Then it was my third book.

But I also think a big part of it is that I've been with the same editor, the same publisher in the same imprint for all of my books. And I think that has made such a huge difference in keeping me, you know, kind of sane and grounded.

JENN: It's not super rare. But I feel like it's not something we see as often as we could, especially I know, with places being gobbled up, and now we're all one company. [Laughs]

ERIN: Yeah.

JENN: That's it. There's no big five, there's just big two.

ERIN: Yeah.

JENN: And that seems like you said, it has been helpful to have that long term relationship and that trust.

ERIN: Yes, you said it, it's all about trust. And this is a business where you really have to trust the people around you. Because there's so many people involved. You know, writing is a solitary act, but publishing is a team effort. And there's so many people involved. And if the trust breaks down, the whole system just kind of falls apart. And I've had, you know, I have a lot of writer friends who have been with different editors, different publishers, for better or worse. I've had some who did not have great relationships with their editors. I've had, it's all over the place. And I feel so fortunate that I landed with Greenwillow. Because my editor and I have a great relationship built on trust. I trust the team around Greenwillow. And I trust the team at Harper because I've had this time to get to know them. So I didn't jump from one year to the next from one to the other. And I think that makes a big difference, you know, because not only do I trust them, but they trust me.

So if I want to write, for example, when I decided to write a fantasy, you know, part of me thought, oh my gosh, I'm gonna write this fantasy, and people are gonna be going, what is this, this is so far off the track, you know. But they trusted me, because we had built this relationship. And they're like, well, write the book that you feel compelled to write, write the book that’s speaking to you. And I can do that, because, I think because of that shared respect.

JENN: I love hearing when that happens, when there's just like, that bond and relationship that's like, I'm gonna be, we're a family. And that's it. And they've done good by you. And, and also learned how to do better by you too, because I feel like we learned too, on the publishing side with each book. Like, you can't just– I mean, with some authors, you know, you could just say their name, and it's like, done. [Laughs]

ERIN: Mm hmm.

JENN: You know, just sit back and see that. But like you said, you challenge yourself with different books. And you know, like, these readers are growing, like you're gaining new readers of that age over time. In children's lit, specifically, age is of the essence too. So you're kind of constantly potentially reintroducing them to Erin Entrada Kelly.

ERIN: Yes. And you know, what else too, I think is important too, is that when you're starting out, there's this sense among writers where they're just so grateful that someone's publishing their book. You know, for many people, it's been a lifelong dream, for me, you know, and for many others, or at least a long time dream, right? And it's such a big deal to have a book published. So you're almost afraid– not everyone, but some people aren't afraid to ask a million questions right off the bat. But there are many people, including myself, who, at the beginning, you know, you're, kind of, you don't want to ask too many questions. You don't want to like, mess anything up.

But over time, as you're building, you know, that's another thing that gets easier to speak to your question that you asked earlier, is that fear, that apprehension just kind of goes away and you're just, ask, you can ask whatever questions, you can have an open, honest conversation. And I think that, that has helped when you have a long term relationship with an editor or a publisher, if that's something that you're fortunate enough to have. Because you already know each other so well that you can have very open conversations and you don't have to have that fear of speaking out of turn or saying the wrong thing or you know, whatever it may be.

JENN: And then you win a, you get a Newbery Honor on top. [Laughs]

ERIN: I know.

JENN: You’re just like, I can do whatever I want now! [Laughs]

ERIN: Yeah, yeah, exactly, right? I'm gonna start making demands now, okay. I gotta think of some demands. Uh… Let me think of some. I'll get back to you.

JENN: [Laughs] Any day now.[Laughs] Just be ready, Greenwillow.

ERIN: After that happened, I'm like, okay, I need, I need to, like get some kind of diva complex because I don't think I'm diva-ing enough out over here. Like, yeah, it was, that was wild. It totally, 150%, did not expect. I mean, you never expect that. I don't think anyone's sitting at home like, well, the Newbery committee should be coming any minute, you know?

JENN: Yeah, yeah.

ERIN: But as much as I didn't expect the Newbery for Hello Universe, I triple didn't expect the Newbery Honor for We Dream Of Space. Because there was a time when I was revising We Dream Of Space, I was sitting at my kitchen table. And I was, you know, I had my pen, I had my printout, and I'm just reading it. And I just thought to myself, this book is terrible. This is the most boring thing I think I've ever read. That's what I'm thinking in my head. Now, keep in mind, I had read the book probably like 20 times or something by then. But I'm just thinking, this is terrible. And I started just crying at the kitchen table with my little red pen just marking up pages, just ahh ahhh, you know like, just big droplets on the pages. And I'm thinking this, this book is just so boring. I don't know why anyone would want to read this. I don't know why anyone would care about these characters as much as I do.

And I had like this whole, whole thing, this whole, like self-doubt that I think we all have, most of us anyway. And then it went on to be so well loved by so many people. And then it wins this Newbery Honor. And it was such a, I don't even know what the word is that it was. It was surreal in a way that, that the first one was, as well, but also different, if that makes sense.

JENN: Wow. And I don't know if it's validating. I don't know if that's a fair thing to say. Because not every book needs to win an award to be a good book.

ERIN: Yes.

JENN: Like just to deserve to exist.

ERIN: Yeah, you know, what it's validating. But it's also perplexing, but not in a bad way. It's just kind of I read, you read, you know, probably everyone listening to this reads, you read a lot of books. And you read a lot of really good books. And sometimes those books don't get recognized in any way. And you're just kind of sitting there like, why, you know? And then not necessarily why my book, because I'm proud of my books. But it's just, kind of, it's just a puzzle. It's just perplexing, you know. And it's just, I don't know that there's a valid answer to why, but some books are recognized and other books aren't. So it's validating and it can also be perplexing when you encounter another book that maybe no one's heard of that you think is incredible, but doesn't have all kinds of stickers on it, you know? So it's a whirlwind. It's a whirlwind.

JENN: No, that makes sense. That makes absolute sense.

And speaking of books, you have a new one coming out, Those Kids From Fawn Creek, publishing March 8th. Could you try to give, like, a brief synopsis? [Laughs] Because I always feel bad. I want to say, if it's fair, as an author, is it fair for me that. Like, can you try to summarize the book?

ERIN: See, you're clearly someone who understands what it's like to be a writer, because I think that's the question that gives every writer hives, when people ask what's your book about? Because then, it's just like, I don't know, I wrote it, but I don't know what it's about. [Laughs]

Because it is hard, right? But I will give a summary. Of course I will.

Those Kids From Fawn Creek is a story of a very, very small town in South Louisiana. It's so small that there are only twelve seventh graders in the entire school of Fawn Creek Middle School, and then the same twelve kids every year until seventh grade. One day, a new student shows up. And her name is Orchid. And she's very different from all the other kids. And not only is she the first new student they've ever seen, but she's also lived kind of this very big life. She's traveled all over. She lived in New York City, she lived in Paris, and then she just kind of arrived in this very, very small town. So the story is about how her arrival changes this community of seventh graders, and that's Those Kids From Fawn Creek. And the book explores each of them, each of the students’ perspectives in different ways to show how Orchid is changing things and how they're reacting to her and kind of what happens after she appears.

JENN: And I do love me a multi POV story. I'm all about those.

ERIN: Me too.

[30:00]

JENN: So great. So fun. I don't know if they're fun to write, but they're fun to read. [Laughs]

ERIN: I love, I love writing them. I mean, honestly, my first two books were in first person. Well, I'm sure I'll write another first person at some point. But I’m really into, you know, a close third person perspective. And one of the things that I love and I'm so proud of with this book, and I hope I accomplished it well, is that there are focused characters, there's three characters that get more real estate than the other characters. But the reader does get twelve points of view throughout the book so that you get to know each character in their own way. It was a challenge for me, you know, kind of going back to what I was saying about challenging yourself. It was a challenge. And I thought how am I going to do this in a way that makes sense and isn't confusing and adds to the, to the overall narrative? And I think I figured it out. I hope I figured it out. I think I figured it out. But you know, that's for readers to decide how to do it in a way that is pleasing. So um, yeah, it was a lot of fun. I'm really proud of it. And honestly, I don't say that about every book, because I'm always full of such self doubt and self loathing, you know. But, um, but I am really proud of this book, and I can't wait for people to meet these kids.

JENN: I really enjoyed the book. I gobbled it up over the holiday. Jacqueline was able to get me a copy because I was like, I cannot stare at a screen. [Laughs] Like, stop making me stare at screens! [Laughs]

ERIN: Yes, I'm with you 100% on that.

JENN: Oh my goodness. [Laughs] So it was just, it's always so nice to hold the book in my hand and just be able to get in with these characters, because there's like the inciting incident which is Orchid, but it's also how she forces them to really look at their own relationships and a new perspective, which for some of them feels very scary.

ERIN: Yes. And that's kind of the point, right? Is that I feel like, you know, thinking about Hello Universe, for example. In that book, there's a character who was deaf. And when I set out to write the book, I'm a hearing person, I had no reference for what it was like to be deaf. And I had to do a lot of research, which meant, not just Googling ‘what is it like to be deaf’, but going out and actually doing things. Like, you know, I took a sign language class and then I met this wonderful woman, Gina, she's a Deaf advocate, she's a Deaf author. And I had to sit down and have a conversation with her and ask her questions that might make me feel or look ignorant or uneducated or biased. But I think it's important, um, that we do that, right, so that we evolve as human beings.

And I think that one of the things that I wanted Orchid to do is her arrival really makes them, like you said, question how they're treating each other, how they're treating themselves, how they view each other, how they view themselves. And sometimes it takes someone else to kind of throw a wrench in our routine and our day and to challenge us, in whatever way, you know, that may be, to check ourselves and say, you know what, what am I doing? Why do I think this? Why am I doing this? Why am I saying this? And that was really the impetus for writing the book in the first place.

JENN: And it doesn't feel like a message-y book, but it feels like there is a message there.

ERIN: Thank you. Yeah, well, that's what I try to do. You know, no one wants to read a message-y book. I mean, who wants to read, especially kids, because they get messages all the time.

JENN: Right.

ERIN: So I, whenever I write, I'm always thinking about the characters. And that, that's how I think writers can kind of overcome, especially children's authors, can kind of overcome this. This sense of responsibility to impart wisdom, is to always think about the characters and what it's like to be them or what it's like to have their lived experience and walk around as them. And if you're doing that, then the messages that you want to come through, they will just organically kind of come through, if that makes sense. If you're, if you're just always focusing on the story and the characters, then the heartbeat will show itself in a way that makes sense and feels organic and real and authentic. And that's what we need.

JENN: And I'm not obviously going to give the ending away. When we think of endings, there's a feeling of completion that comes with that. And completion looks like very different things, right? And it doesn't mean resolution, so much so, as okay, maybe these characters are in a better place.

ERIN: Mmm hmm.

JENN: And I was talking with Kacen Callendar about this in terms of how they tend to approach, because they write for adults and for children. Like, how do they usually approach writing for younger people, because the book we were talking about for adults was so violent that they had written. And they had mentioned that, you know, they’re, they always want to leave the younger readers with hope.

ERIN: Yes.

JENN: And so is that also something you said, you know, you're focusing on characters in the story, but at the end of the day, are you hoping to, like, leave the reader in a place of hopefulness?

ERIN: Absolutely, and Karen Callendar is one of my favorite authors, so. And that's one of the things that I love so much about their books is that you leave it feeling, okay, this isn't totally resolved in a nice little bow. But I feel like I'm okay to leave this character where they are, because they're going to be alright. And then, and for me, that's the challenge when you're writing, especially realistic fiction, because life just doesn't end in a tidy little bow. And you have to figure out a way to leave the characters, not just the readers, but, but you've spent time with these characters, and you care about them, and you want to leave them in a better place as well. And when you leave them in a better place, the reader feels like they're in a better place too, with them.

And the challenge is figuring out how to do that in a way that feels satisfying as an ending, but also doesn't insult the intelligence of the reader. If you have a character, who’s, who’s living in poverty and is unhoused, and you have Daddy Warbucks sweep in and save them. Well, I mean, the reader is going to feel like, okay, well, how does this relate to my life? Because Daddy Warbucks is not coming for me, right? So you have to think about how can you do that in a way that feels hopeful. So that's absolutely always on my mind.

And endings, for me, are hard for that reason, because I tend to write realistic fiction. And I tend to write characters who are in difficult situations that are not easily resolved. And they're also young people. So they have little control over how those resolutions happen. So I have to spend a lot of time thinking about how I'm gonna bring them there. So that's, that's definitely something that's on my mind. Because it's important when you're writing for young people to leave that sense of hope. Because that's why we're writing these books in the first place, is we want to give young readers hope to say, you know what, wherever you are, someone else has been there, you're not alone, things will get better. That's the whole point. So it's definitely part of the, kind of, the challenge, but also the richness of writing for young people.

JENN: I feel like that's a good note to end on too.

ERIN: Good. I think so. A hopeful note.

JENN: Full Circle. Full Circle moment.

ERIN: Let’s sing Circle of Life, we’ll sing Circle of Life as we fade out. No, let's not.

JENN: [Laughs]

ERIN: We don't want you to lose listeners, you know.

JENN: [Laughs] Thank you so much, Erin, for talking with me. And for this book. I really heartily, enthusiastically, all the adjectives. [Laughs] You know, it's such a good read. It's a sweet read. You definitely get to know these characters. I mean, you can imagine who I don't like, Erin. [Laughs]

ERIN: I hope so. Yeah, I hope so. Yeah.

JENN: It's pretty clear. [Laughs] Then we get to the end. Like, need to work on some stuff, you. [Laughs]

ERIN: That's true, but then again, don't we all, Jenn? Don’t we all have things we need to work on. [Laughs]

JENN: This is true. But Those Kids From Fawn Creek, which is out March 8th, so by the time you listen to this episode, it will be available and I just think this is just a good read. It's a fun read. If this is your introduction to Erin Entrada Kelly, you are lucky because you have a nice little backlist to go backwards from and work your way down. And then you'll be coming out with something soon, I’m sure. [Laughs]

ERIN: Yes, I will actually, in August, the next Marisol Rainey book comes out. So there you go. See, you're all set.

JENN: Oh yay, one two punch, done and done.

So Erin, how may people reach you on the interwebs? You have a wonderful website. I have to say, it is a very well organized website.

ERIN: Thank you very much. That was by Gail Villanueva who is a Filipino web designer in the Philippines and an author. I'm also on Twitter and Instagram @ErinEntrada. And I'm on Facebook: Erin Entrada Kelly. I have an author page on Facebook and I'm very active. I love to connect with people on social media. So go out and find me. And my website's ErinEntradaKelly.com.

JENN: And that's e r i n e n t r a d a k e l l y dot com.

ERIN: That's it.

JENN: Sweet. And all the links are really colorfully and lovingly posted at the bottom of the website. So definitely go. It's just a really– I'm just into author websites, and when they're just like, this is very cute, it’s– I just love organization.

ERIN: Yes.

JENN: Because sometimes it’s a mess.

ERIN: Yes, sometimes they’re a mess.

JENN: This is just, everything is there. [Laughs]

ERIN: Yes. Thank you. I'm really glad you said that. Because I, you know, I revamped it last year. And it's important to have a nice, clean, nice, cheerful website.

JENN: It is.

ERIN: It has my favorite colors in it. Red, you know, yellow and red. I love yellow. So she did a great job. She's incredibly talented. So yes, thank you for that.

[40:03]

JENN: Oh, thank you. Thank you again, for this book. Thank you again for your time, and congratulations on every single thing and honor and recognition. I'm so happy for you.

ERIN: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure and an honor to be on your podcast. And I hope we talk again soon.

JENN: I hope so too. And thank you all for listening. This has been the latest episode of Minorities in Publishing. So again, you can find on Tumblr, minoritiesinpublishing.tumblr.com, Twitter @minoritiesinpub and where you listen to podcasts including Apple Podcasts, Google Play, I Heart Radio, TuneIn, and Spotify. So thanks and keep safe everybody.

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