3 10 and 15 for the ocs question thingy which may be old but idc
Oooh yay thank you for asking!! I'm going to do this for my favorite OC's ever, the OG Church Husbands, Thelem and Azelphir from Exile//Vilify!! Mostly because I want to get back to writing them and actually finish their damn prequel :)
3. What were their first impressions of each other? How does that compare to their impressions of each other now?
A classic story of hate at first sight. Azelphir thought Thelem was a dirty, useless homeless guy (semi-accurate) who wouldn't be able to conform to the demands of the Order, while Thelem thought Azelphir was a stuck up, know-it-all rich kid with a HUGE stick up his ass (extremely accurate). Azelphir was also in a position of authority over him at this time, so it was even worse.
Now, they've grown to really respect one another and work well as a team running the abbey. Thelem appreciates Azelphir's precision, discipline, and need for order, while Azelphir has grown slightly fond of Thelem's chronic tardiness and ability to view things in shades of gray rather than in rigid black and whites.
10. What is one major difference between them?
I feel like this is implied in the previous answer but literally everything. They are opposites in every single way but they mesh so well together and I love that for them. If I had to pick though, I think the main root of it goes to Azelphir's rigid worldview versus Thelem's more amorphous one.
15. Do they trust each other? Why or why not?
At first, absolutely not. In fact, Azelphir actually abused his authority over Thelem to deliberately put him behind in his entry to the abbey. Thelem knew this was happening, but couldn't do anything about it. From Azelphir's perspective, he was trying to weed out someone who couldn't commit to the rigors of being an ordained seer.
Now, they trust each other immensely. They'd put their lives in each others' hands.
So a couple days ago, I ramdomly decided to binge read from Chapter 20 to the end of @silverjirachi's Exile//Vilify, which made me sense some new implications hidden in the fic, and we had a very fun discussion about it on Discord.
Here's how it went, we decided to share here because we were interested how other people would react to it as well.
I did think of summarizing the texts when posting here, but eventually decided the original text would do better for delivery. I did lump together and rephrase some of it though, for consistency of each context.
And of course, this post contains spoilers to both the fic and the game.
Thesis statement 🤣:
Astor was actually supposed to defy Fate, from the fiction series Exile//Vilify to his end in the game Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity.
me:
The sentiment of his past being locked and cast away, losing those that he had held dear the most, losing his sense of self. Three times. Three, the first being when he's exiled, the second when he killed his mentor, and finally, when he died in the pool of malice. Funny thing is that, every time each of these events happens, there's a bit of lament of how he's lost everything that he had, but it turns out each next time he actually had more that he cared about, even if the very last is as little as his own mind and body — which, ironically, in their world, is actually all they have.
The sentiments of memories being locked and cast away. I think this as a whole represents life itself, or modern life at least. Oftentimes we tend to hold on to various things whether they are friends, family, career, your own creations, or someone else's creations, our love, love itself, and passions. The more we get older and generally get exposed to the world and our society, the more they fade away from us. Not only due to a physical or situational standpoint, but from the mind as well. You realize, you don't enjoy the things you've held so dearly to the mind as much as you did anymore. It comes to you when you least expect it, just like how Astor didn't expect how and when each next of the castaway events happened.
You hold onto the sentiments, and you try to emulate them. But with time, it only caves into a deeper void. At some point, you just let go. A line of emptiness. Perhaps, a cage you didn't know you were holding yourself in. A part of growing up. Eventually, you grow past it and look back trying to remember what was it about it that you were desperately trying to hold onto. Is it in our nature that we feel like this, or is it the system that makes us feel like this? This can be correlated with Astor having a sense of clarity each time he is given a breakdown. In his world of gods and magic, he had a tangible force above his free will that left him with numbness. Is it his Fate that makes him feel like this? Our real world is much more unpredictable, many events can pile up to become a tangible force on their own.
But as only Astor could See and feel the true extents of his Fate, only each of us alone can witness the true extent of our own forces upon us. What if the meaning of his test was not of serving Fate, but defying it? What if the thing that stopped him from defying Ganon further was not of the pushing hands of Fate, but his own lamentful resign? The drills and rules of the Order as as whole? As he knew that even he doesn't know how exactly Fate's path would unfold itself. Only what has been Seen was told to be inevitable, the exact process or people involved can vary greatly depending of the actions of each invidual, like how Queen Zelda was supposed to die 7 years ago via poison. Perhaps that is why Fate had showed Astor a "limited version" of the future, as if Astor had not notified the Queen of her poison, the princess could have suffered a different loss when she becomes seven.
If, in your story, led up to the version of BoTW, where both the king and the seer (expectedly) dies, then the death of the king could have been due to his obsession of defying that he had no real will, no thought of his own anymore to coherently fight against the prophecy, such as setting precautions of an emergency escape device or developing a kill switch for when the machines do turn against them. One could argue that it won't work Because Fate but it doesn't mean it isn't worth a try (and this king would've definitely tried if he had a clearer head.) The death of the prophet could have been due to his full resignation, which means the expire of his usefulness, his ability to scheme with clarity, which has been erased numb with his arrogance. Empty, with only the echo of The Promise in place where his will used to be.
What if, the reason Ganon, or Fate, chose Astor as their prophet because his will was so strong? What if Ganon required an active, individual mind in order to infiltrate the host and walk in flesh? He could've just captured any poor citizen or a recently dead corpse if he needed just a body. What if Ganon just wasn't able to be whole without Astor, a mind to keep through to hold, a mind to not fade, even with the personal invasion of death? What if, if Astor had defied till the end, or Astor had "resigned his life" himself before properly becoming the Prophet of Doom, the calamity would've been like another harsh blood moon, without an overarching, war-controlling mind?
Maintaining control and awareness of where you're at during the readings, would probably be what the Order drilled into their students. What if the result of losing that control wasn't of something like death, trauma or physical impairment, but of losing the ability itself to See? What if, the Order as a hivemind group, had lost touch of what made them receive the ability to See from Fate in the first place? What if, over time, they had focused too much on rigorous and exact Delivery, instead of mindful interpretation, that made Fate give them less and less specifics, what if Fate's intention of enabling them to See was to make them have their own interpretations of their own, giving them mere glimpses at a point in the future? Their visions, lacking decisions, Fate giving them less and less info, until it eventually becomes unintelligible to be useful at all?
What if Astor was Fate's last shot of maintaining the connection with the Order, hence why it was overshadowed that Astor was the last Seer? What if Queen Zelda's reason of not Reading her daughter's whole line was because of this?
A kingdom falling into ruin because it had depended too much on the gods and the Written future... in ways both obsessively obeying and obsessively defying. Obsessing over only the fact that they are obeying and defying without notion to what's really important, without their own actions by their own will. Also connects to why princess Zelda's awakening has been discarded for so long, her will has been sealed away by the force of the prophecy pressure told by her father. Her awakening was not supposed to be with pressure. Feels poetic in a way in this way, the kingdom depended on their gods for their life but it was their obsession of that dependency that brought them to their doom. Very thought and idea-inducing.
I thought it would be interesting if Astor actually was supposed to keep defying/postponing The Fate.
silverjirachi:
Yes!! I love that you notice the 3's. I always envisioned the plot as a 3-step process and it's great it lines up like this. It goes from most external (his social position/life at Hyrule Castle), to internal (person he loved), to his physical body.
The note of memories being locked away is interesting bc sometimes i feel like memories are all we have. so maybe that's another way i'm saying "he doesn't have anything anymore." he can tell something is supposed to be there, but he's not himself anymore, so he can't access it.
Fascinating thought about Astor defying fate especially bc that's like the whole antithesis of the book/the world as it was advertised to him. if chosen ones exist then free will literally cannot, BUT ALSO, he was raised in a cult. The order of the seers is a literallll cult. A cult who is correct about some things, but a cult nonetheless, and nowhere is this clearer than the lengths they go to to make sure people don't challenge fate. Fascinating also to note then that king rhoam and astor had two extreme differing obsessions: defying fate, and submitting to it. (racing desperately to include this somewhere in the fic somehow).
Love love love the idea that Astor, who seems so passive and weak-willed, is actually so strong-willed when it comes to serving fate that that's exactly why ganon selected him.
Also fascinating takes on the order. The idea of "visions lacking decisions" (another line I am desperately trying to see if I can work in because that goes hard). Because that's what they do. They just see. they don't decide. They don't take action. They're observers. It's really kinda shitty when you think about it.
AND CONNECTING THAT TO THE FALL OF THE KINGDOM my god your brain
He definitely did so much postponing and stalling. The time thing. Fate, the sister of time. Time, the sister of fate.
me:
I just love the notion that, if this was true, then it implies something like this would've happened.
Fate: Let's give them future visions so that they can use to enrich their lives, they're so spontaneous and strong-willed!
Hylians: Ooh this is our future, we will be like this no matter what, this is the absolute truth given by the heavens.
Fate: Wtf you were supposed to have free will and do the thinking yourselves.
It makes more sense when you think about how it's implied that Thelem was the narrator of the whole thing at the end, who is literally the head of the cult. He has definitely the "defying fate bad" or at least "won't work anyway" radicalization in his head.
Something like The Truman Show but Astor is the Truman. Everyone who came before and after Astor to the Order was a Truman that became an NPC.
(joking) What if it was all just literally in his head. What if it was all just Thelem's dream, a very long dream he had.
silverjirachi:
(laughing reaction)
Thelem is the narrator, yes. I subtly imply he wrote all of Exile//Vilify as one continuous prophecy.
It's easy to miss but it's like, definitely there and supposed to be there.
it's one thing in the edits i'm hoping comes across slightly clearer. still very subtle, I want it to be subtle, but I think I've added a bit more moments of "Thelem's side commentary" and his voice and opinions coming through that I hope give more hints.
me:
About the Astor defying Fate, what if Fate looked at how Astor turned out and went "😭😭😭 I leave this all to you now, little princess 🛐"
Because we all know that sparrow Zelda had. A lot of strong fucking will. The willpower is the white hot energy, it was blocked by the doubt made by the obsession by her father.
She had a will so strong compared to everyone else around her (in the castle) who blindly followed gods and orders. She is never blind, she always questions everything hence her curious nature, including her own self, she literally goes "What's wrong with me?" in one of the game cutscenes. In this specific mindset of her is when her nature of challengive (is that a real word?) questioning is harmful to her.
Reminds me a bit of the beginning of the Frozen movie where the elder goes "great power but also great danger, fear will be your enemy". Despite everything, Zelda never really gave up on her passions entirely, nor shut in on herself entirely (emotionally closed). As it was her willpower towards what she loved that unlocked her great power of gods and heavens, what the entire kingdom desperately depended upon.
silverjirachi:
GOD YOU'RE SO RIGHT YEAH
Zelda questions EVERYTHING and Astor got it hammered into him to NEVER do that.
me:
I was going to say Astor and Zelda would turn out to be exactly the same if they swap places.
But nah, Zelda would go "But why?" every single time.
Your Astor in Exile//Vilify as Zelda would go stoic and distant, probably not too different with the official Link we see in BoTW.
Or maybe not.
Maybe Astor and Zelda would be similar if they swapped places, since Zelda in and out of the castle at least had people quite out of her "cult", while Astor in the Order was surrounded by the cult, hammered into him that Fate is Fate. Maybe he would have been able to maintain some sort of curiosity if he grew up in the castle, with fresher views from people out of the castle like Purah and Urbosa was to Zelda, rather than being surrounded by members of the Order at all times.
But I don't know if he ever questioned in his mind if Fate was truly not to be questioned, or if he asked the elders a couple times including Thelem but was cut down every time, either in a gentle way or not.
I guess it would depend on how they would actually act on each circumstance.
Still thinking about Zelda-Rose (Princess Zelda's mother from Exile/Vilify by @silverjirachi )
The ballroom scene was one of many highlights in the book, and the description of Rose's dress and tiara were so striking that I had to draw her. Took inspiration from Naydra's horns for the placement of the gems and glass <3
I just remembered this song with rain sounds and the attached Chell portrait and it just brings me so much melancholic nostalgia. Also I think this is attached to feelings of gender envy I didn't realize I had as a teenager. I'm literally tearing up over this.
Mister Cellophane (Chicago)
The song literally ends with him apologizing for taking up space and our time as the listener. If that isn't Lonely-core, I don't know what else is
Exile Vilify (The National)
From Portal 2 soundtrack. In the context of that game, it is about the POV of a character who's a lone survivor struggling both with complete isolation and a crippling case of schizophrenia. While the song does contain some references to his mental problems, it definitely emphazises more his isolation than anything else, making it NOT a Spiral song. The feeling of sheer loneliness is conveyed very damn well even without any of that context too, IMHO. To quote someone from SongMeanings: "Exile, the feeling of being isolated. Vilify, the dissolusion and inhuman feeling. So, the song is about feeling isolated by mental illness and is used by Portal 2 to illustrate Ratman's struggles".
