Loki had no right to envy thor and praise the ground frigga walked on when odin was a shitty dad to all three of his kids
Alright! Time to talk about something that is not discussed enough: jealousy between siblings that grew up in parental abuse/neglectful situations.
As someone who grew up in an abusive/neglectful environment and has siblings, + knows many people who have the same set of parameters, jealousy between siblings is sort of natural byproduct because guess what!
Parents never, never, never abuse/neglect every kid in their family in exactly the same way.
My parents were awful to my siblings in ways they weren't to me, but I'm jealous of the good things they did to for them because they didn't do that with me (i.g. when I was looking for a job last year, i got yelled at every time I failed; when my sister was looking for a job, my parents were very present for her emotionally and assured her she was doing the best she could when she didn't get the job. Their patience was absurd to me) Stuff like that + bigger things. If we were neglected/abused in exactly the same way, my sister would have gotten yelled at, too, or I would have gotten support, but it didn't happen like that because parents don't DO that, even in healthy environments, parents are never the same parents to their kids.
Likewise in ways they were awful to my siblings, they were LESS awful to me, so my siblings are jealous of that. when you're raised in an environment where you have to fight for love and scraps of affection when your parents are in a parenting mood, you are always jealous when someone manages to get the scrap. Like yes, your siblings (often) become your closest friends and confidants in that situation because there's no one else who understands it like they do, but because the abuse/neglect is so different for everyone, it causes resentment.
So here's the thing: Thor, Hela, and Loki were not abused in the same way. Loki can have an amazing, healthy relationship with Frigga (he does not, but we can pretend for a moment) and Thor is fighting for scraps of love from her. (Parents and their parenting moods are weird) and Thor can resent Loki for that because he needs a mom too. Thor can get all the attention from Odin and have a healthier (it is not healthy) relationship with Odin, and Loki can resent him for that, even though he has a "good" relationship with Frigga, because he still needs a dad. Hela can have been banished and raised as Odin's sword and have NO good or even good-ish relationships with Frigga and Odin and she resents Thor and Loki for that because she needed parents.
But is all their trauma valid even though the WAY they were traumatized is different? Yes. Can we look at them and objectively choose the "worst" victim between the three of them? No. We can't. Because different things traumatize people differently. And why should we? it's not a competition. Even though parental abuse/neglect has a tendency to pit siblings against each other despite (usually) said siblings best efforts otherwise, it is NOT A COMPETITION.
Loki has every right to be angry with Odin over what he did to him even though Odin was terrible to all his children because IT! IS! NOT! A! COMPETETION! ABOUT WHO WAS ABUSED MORE! The most suffering victim doesn't "earn" the right to be traumatized. everyone was traumatized. Everyone gets therapy. They're just going to talk about different things in therapy and THEY ARE ALL STILL TRAUMATIZED.
I guarantee to you that if they were real people, Thor would absolutely be jealous of Loki and Hela. Loki would be jealous of Hela and Thor. Hela would be jealous of Thor and Loki, EVEN THOUGH all of them are being abused, it's just the fact they're not being abused in the same way.
And this is WHY I am always in awe of their relationship in canon because it is one of the best written sibling relationships under abuse I have ever seen because it is REAL. (The Umbrella Academy s1 did this spectacularly, also, btw) Sibling relationships under abuse are so so so messy because everyone is in survival mode and it causes SO MANY issues.
and guess what! Everyone IS jealous of each other
^ Thor's resentment that he wasn't taught anything by Frigga (listen to the way he says this, he is very jealous and bitter, i WISH they had poked this more)
^ hela jealous odin replaced her with Thor
^ loki jealous that Thor got more attention than he did from their parents + people in general (all this attention wasn't a good thing) (funnily enough, for someone who is said to be SUPER jealous, this is the only time in canon I can think of Loki actually admitting that he is)
so anyway, sibling resentment HAPPENS but everyone is still abused/neglected and it all sucks and EVERYONE deserves therapy. And hey, if Frigga decided to actually be a parent to one of her kids (she didn't) then I am HAPPY because at least SOMEONE got a parent, even though Thor deserved a mom just as much as Loki did.
There’s zero chance Loki and Hela having so many similarities is just a coincidence. And even though we’re most definitely never getting a full explanation for it, I’m so curious as to what you guys believe the reason is. Do you think:
a.) Loki’s a shapeshifter who can see people’s memories when he touches them. So when Odin picked him up as a baby, he saw Hela in Odin’s mind and shifted himself to resemble her.
b.) Loki and Hela have the same biological mother.
c.) Hela is Loki’s biological mother.
d.) Odin changed Loki to look like Hela when he first held him, because he missed her.
e.) Hela’s biological mother is jotun, and she and Loki both have black hair/pale skin/green aesthetic/etc because that’s just what frost giants look like when they take an asgardian form.
f.) Hela and Loki are both adopted, both children of Laufey. Odin took Hela centuries earlier, then when he realised Laufey’d had another child, he took Loki too.
**I’ve listed these in order from the ones I find most likely to least likely, if you’re curious. Tell me which headcanon you prefer, I wanna see.
Compare Hela to Azula. For as cruel and sadistic as Azula was the show made clear by the end that she was actually a tragic character. It was the fire nations philosophies and the fire lord that were wrong. Hela on the other hand is just a monster. Odin changed that's that.
Actually neither Hela nor Azula are monsters. In fact there are a lot parallels between them. Both of them grew up in an imperialist culture and propaganda where they're taught their own nation is above everyone else's. Both are used by their fathers as a weapon and considered what they did for their father and nation an honor. Both aimed to please their father.
The difference is not that one is a monster. The difference is how their fathers treated them.
You think Odin changed? He didn't. He simply stopped at nine realms as we've seen through the movies that Asgard still holds power over the nine realms with the claim that "they're protectors". And when Odin stopped, Hela's usefulness ran out and she became a hindrance for his new lifestyle specially since she had ambitions of her own. Ambitions that were the result of what Odin taught her and how he treated her. So Odin cast her out and locked her up for at least a thousand years. Hela was imprisoned for many years, alone and forgotten knowing she was replaced by another child. And that takes its toll on her. So when she was finally freed, she wasn't really stable as all she could think of was revenge and war.
And you see the same thing in Azula too. Just like Hela, she is the product of her upbringing. She does everything her father asks of her, living in fear that she might be treated like Zuko. And you saw how she reacted when she felt she is being ignored and disregarded like Zuko, how angry she was. Feeling alone, betrayed and not loved, took its toll on her too and she fell apart.
Another parallel between Hela and Azula is that they're both hurt by being considered monsters. When Azula said "even my mother thought me a monster but I don't care" and you know that's a lie and she cares very much, and when Hela says with disdian "I'm not a monster, I'm the goddess of death".
I consider them both tragic in a sense that they too was hurt by what their fathers did to them, how war changed and affected them and how they both weren't loved. And how they weren't able to change their mindset and ways from what's been taught to them. Perhaps it's harder to see Hela as a tragic character because we only saw her rage and how she hurt others, but for Azula we saw her pain and how she broke down and fell apart. And I wish we could get to see both of them heal and have a redemption arc.
Oh Hela meta!! I love Hela meta! There’s not enough of it honestly, especially considering how much of it other characters get. The pain Cate had Hela showing in some parts was so tangible yet reserved and I love her for that. Odin really messed up all three of his kids, huh... It’s funny how you can divide up the MCU into three categories: Things that are Odin’s fault/ Things that are Odin’s fault in a roundabout way/ and the ever shrinking category of Not Odin’s fault.
When in doubt, blame Odin. I think that’s fair to say, yeah?
Cate has the most impeccable way of portraying characters that we should despise or dislike but then making them lovable, pitiable, and far more complex than we want them to be; like the stepmother in Cinderella, or Phyllis Schlafly in Mrs. America. We want to dislike them, but you can’t help but wonder what really happens to them and why they are the way they are.
Hela is just like that. I think we all have this fascination with her not just because she’s, uh, beautiful, and seemingly has endless power, but also she has this wicked darkness that stems from being locked up and leading so many wars and battles. It’s one of those classic tropes where you wish you could turn her to the good side and change them and fix them. But God, isn’t that the most satisfying arc though?
This doesn’t necessarily mean she is old now. But considering the script where it is described as young Odin and young Hela and the fact we know Odin got old and died because of his age, proofs Hela isn’t nearly that young as Thor and Loki. She even got some grey hair. Well of course we knew Hela was already an adult when she conquered the realms and before Thor and Loki were born.
Just wanted to point this out again because it would perfectly fit if Hela, at that age, got a baby.
Thor trilogy 🤝 gotg 3: fantastic end to two good trilogies
(Yeah i said it shh)
i mean. *deep sigh* okay. So yes. But no. Gotg 3 was much different than Thor 3. To be clear, my feelings toward Ragnarok have shifted from loathing to at best, apathy, over the last several years, so I'm very very neutral when it comes to Ragnarok. I know that there are good parts. I have adopted Hela has my chaos child.
But there IS a massive difference between what gotg3 did vs what Ragnarok did. Gotg3 was willing to meet the characters where they were and do what was best for the character, rather than the story and Ragnarok wouldn't do that.
long post:
Like Gamora. Yes, it would have been better for the story if she and Peter ended up together, but it was better for the character that she go back to the Ravagers. Yes it was good for the story that Rocket kill the villain whose name has slipped my mind, but it was better for Rocket to let him live. To give mercy when he wasn't ever allowed any. And yes, the two can coincide and meet in the middle and it's good. IT was good for Drax's character and the story that Drax slip into a more fatherly role. But the director of gotg3 clearly loved the characters. The story was a backdrop to the emotional journey the characters were on. And the director knew that. And he respected that. And he focused the story around their characters. There was no end all be all plot, it was focused on Rocket and what Rocket means to the guardians.
Ragnarok didn't do that, and that's where I think a lot of fans do feel a pull. Ragnarok is an amazing story. It has brilliant pacing, the narrative structure is amazing, the set up, the pay offs--everything. Ragnarok is one of the best put together movies I've seen in a lot time, save one thing:
It is not a good emotional journey. It doesn't serve the characters, it only serves the plot. What has Thor learned or gained between Thor 1 and Thor 3 that he didn't have at the beginning of Thor 1? The main problem for Thor in the first film was his arrogance and impulsiveness kept getting him into trouble. The disregard of his brother was what sent the film going. Odin's lack of love to Thor, his lack of love to Loki--Frigga's failings to reach out to both of them...Thor 1 is a story about a broken family.
Gotg1 is a story about a family coming together.
Gotg2 is a story about what it means to stick together through the hard stuff
gotg3 is realizing that your family will always be there for you to return to, and that no matter what, they have you.
Gotg is a story about family, and that's what the Thor films desperately wanted to be, but kept falling short at.
Thor truly, and I mean this with the most sincerity, did not grow in Ragnarok. What fault did he overcome? What new chapter to his story did we unveil that made us think about Thor in a new way? With gotg3, we learned about how much Rocket means to everyone, but we learned more about Rocket. His past, what makes him tic, why Rocket is Rocket.
We didn't learn anything about Thor. It was like they had already presented the whole character to us, and rather than make him stretch and grow...Thor turned and ran from any sort of arc in Ragnarok. So did Loki.
Like I said, the story of Ragnarok is really well put together. But it doesn't serve the characters. And the thing is, Ragnarok could have been tweaked just a little bit and it would have given just as satisfying of an ending as gotg3:
Keep Hela. Keep Ragnarok. Keep the destruction of Mjolnir.
But change the stakes. Loki and Thor are fighting for each other, not Asgard, not Sakaar, not some arbitrary Thing with stupid betrayals that didn't make sense. Because to me, my own personal opinion, the huge thing that Ragnarok circled around but never actually fixed was this:
In Thor 1, Thor needed to choose Asgard. (And Loki) Prioritize his kingdom and throw out his arrogance to put them first. He didn't. His selfishness is what puts Asgard is danger. And Thor's selfishness/arrogance is ultimately what blinded him to Loki's pain and led to the massive fall out later. In Thor 2, Thor did the exact same thing but this time it was under the guise of "wanting to be a good person." which is. my frustrations with that are for another time.
In Thor 1, Loki needed Asgard to choose him. (and he needed to choose Thor) He needed to know he was accepted even though he's Jotun. He needed that reassurance that he still means something. And Loki needed to choose Thor anyway. And he did. In the Dark World, Loki helped Thor with Jane, and he let Thor go because he knew the throne would make Thor unhappy. They needed to talk and they didn't. Loki is midway through his arc.
So is Thor. An acknowledgment of why Thor doesn't want the throne in TDW was actually reallly really good. It helped develop Thor as a person. He was deeply traumatized from the events of Thor 1, and the throne to him is equal to becoming his dad. And Thor needed to realize that he can be a good man and be a good king and they never got to that.
We never completed that arc. Thor has the second coronation where he's not trying to goad the crowd in the Statesmen, but we didn't earn that. We didn't earn any of that. Not Thor and Loki's "repaired" relationship, not the coronation, not Thor's development, nothing.
In gotg3, we earned their relationship with Rocket. We watched it develop, and we watched him prioritize them, and we earned that scene at the end of the movie where Rocket doesn't kill the High Evolutionary because Rocket has changed. gotg1 Rocket would have slit the High Revolutionary's throat and walked away happily. Rocket gotg3 didn't.
So I honestly think that stakes should have changed in Ragnarok. Hela takes Loki captive because he's king and has information and/or powers she needs and she banishes Thor to Sakaar. Thor is given the opportunity to stay in Sakaar and live out his life peacefully as the "good man" he always wanted to be. Thor doesn't want to be king. It's been this looming thing that's felt like promised corruption since his failed coronation. Thor meets with Val, and then Bruce, and Thor, in a series of drunken conversations, realizes some stuff about Odin and why he doesn't want the throne, and then gets off his butt because Val and Bruce have helped him realize that he needs to put Asgard first. That he can be a good person and a good man. Maybe Thor thinks Loki made a deal with Hela, or maybe Loki actually did make a deal with Hela, idk. Point is, Thor thinks Loki is fine.
On Asgard, Loki is not fine. Hela is making a mess of everything and killing people, and Loki puts his neck on the line to keep people safe. He uses his manipulation skills to con her, works with Heimdall, and is working on a plan to rescue Thor because he doesn't know where Thor is and if Thor is safe. Heimdall and Loki discuss this at length and Heimdall says that he knew Loki was Jotun and that it's okay. Loki's heritage is revealed to Asgard not through a play, but some other means and Asgard still chooses to trust him anyway. That would go a millions years into helping Loki feel better about everything.
Thor comes back to Asgard with the rescue ship and the knowledge about Ragnarok, and Loki almost dies to keep Thor alive. Both of them realize that they've grown up since the first film. Loki put Thor first. Thor is putting Asgard first. Ultimately, having accepted themselves for who they are, the kid who does not want to be their father, and the kid who does not want to be a monster, Loki and Thor can now accept each other.
Because Loki and Thor already love each other. We know that. We've seen it. We know that their relationship can be repaired and fixed and that they'd let the universe burn to keep the other safe. What we don't know is if they can meet the other since they've changed and grown and Thor 3 had the opportunity to do that.
Thor 1 broke their relationship
Thor 2 started to mend it
Thor 3 should have healed it
I don't know if they should kill Hela. Thor and Hela are mirror characters of each other, and I think Thor showing her mercy would be a better character growth than him immediately trying to kill her. If Thor can help Hela change, then he knows he can change to. There shouldn't have been this big fight on the bifrost again. Ultimately, it should have been something more verbal. maybe they fight in the throne room but with words. Communication isn't their family's forte, okay, great, then fix that! LET THEM COMMUNICATE. SCREAM AT EACH OTHER.
Thor, Hela, and Loki will never be able to grow until they accept the damage that Odin did to them. So the final fight should have been about that. With the shadow of Odin hanging over all three of them, they should have turned their backs on Odin's legacy by choosing each other over some stupid seat of power that Odin has been making them fight for since conception.
Hela, at her core, wants connection. She's doing that with everyone (I thought you'd be glad to see me, tell me about yourself? *rambles about Odin's past* I was his executioner, I executed his vision) Give her that with Thor and Loki when they talk about Odin.
Loki, at his core, wants to be accepted for who he is. Give him that with a public acceptance of his Jotun heritage. Where silver tongue is able to save them. His magic. Let Loki use his powers for good and remind him that at his core, he's still a good person.
Thor, at his core, wants to be worthy of love. SHOW HIM that he doesn't have to EARN it. That it's already there. Let Val and Bruce take care of him. Let Loki choose him over and over again. Destroy Mjolnir, and then show Thor that he is worthy anyway. Let him throw off the legacy of his abusive father armed with the knowledge that he is worthy of his family's love anyway.
Idk, I'm rambling, but the point is: gotg3 honored the character's journey and the path they needed to take, even if we the audience didn't always like that path. Ragnarok stomped all over the path the character's needed to take in favor of being funny or convenient and it really messed with some narratives.
Generally, I like Ragnarok. I enjoy the movie when I don't think about it connected to the rest of the Thor franchise. But it didn't meet the emotional beats it should have because it was so focused on telling a good story, it missed the story it needed to tell.
it is genuinely hard to put my love of Hela into words
like. she's the product of Odin's worst traits. She's the product of Asgard. She's what Asgard used to be like. She is Odin's worst fear. She is Odin's greatest shame. She is violent and bloody and angry and murderous. She is the executioner. She is a general. She is a sister. She is replaced. She is the stain on Odin's long, bloody reign. She is a murderer. she's not afraid to hurt anyone. Under Odin's direction, she killed and killed and killed. The moment she stopped doing what he told her to, he got rid of her. Odin rewrote history to cut her out. Hela tried to kill her brothers in revenge for that.
but.
she is a sister. she is forgotten. she was left on a planet in complete isolation for a thousand years. The only company she ever had was when she tried to escape and Odin sent the Valkyries to kill her. She came out worse. She didn't talk to anyone for a thousand years. She was a child and Odin put weapons into her hands. She was put into the position of an executioner and killed people under his direction. The only friends she ever had were a legion in the army. She had a dog. She missed Asgard. She hoped people would be happy to see her again. She wanted people to miss her. She wanted Odin's reign to be wiped from existence as thoroughly as she was. She hates fighting. She misses having a purpose. she thinks death IS her purpose. people used to call her a monster enough she felt the need to defend herself to Thor. She never attacks first. She tries to talk people out of fighting because she knows she'll win and she doesn't want to kill them. She cuts out Thor's eye and is disgusted and regrets it. She was alone for a thousand years and thought about Asgard enough she remembered its history vividly. She was miserable. She is miserable. No one asks her why. Why she's doing this. Why she's this way. No one asks her to stop so she doesn't. No one even considers it. She saw Skurge and was so desperate for company, even if they were terrified of her, that she pulled him along. She tried to get to know Skurge. she wanted a friend. She wanted someone to remember her. She wanted someone to miss her. she is a broken, broken woman and no one cares.
In Ragnarok, Hela treated Loki as a small boy who has no idea what’s going on and still a lot to learn.
The way she told him he sounds like Odin. The way Loki got scared of her attacking him and Thor after she destroyed Mjolnir. The way she catched Loki’s knife in the Bifrost and just threw him off without any bigger effort as if she knew she’s Hela-stronger than this boy.
