Rick Riordan puts a scene with Nico and Jason back to back with a scene starring Nico and Will. And these scenes sort of demonstrate why I prefer Jason x Nico to Nico x Will (don't ask where Jason x Leo fit in, since I love them too. Let's put that aside for now). Will and Nico first:
"You're so dense," Will noted. "I hope you got over that nonsense about leaving Camp Half-Blood."
"I - yeah. I did. I mean, I'm staying."
"Good. So you may be dense, but you're not an idiot."
"How can you even talk to me like that? Don't you know I can summon zombies and skeletons and -"
"Right now you couldn't summon a wishbone without melting into a puddle of darkness, di Angelo," Will said. "I told you, no more Underworld-y stuff, doctor's orders. You owe me at least three days of rest in the infirmary. Starting now."
Is this romantic? I mean… I've never actually felt romantic attraction in real life, but is calling someone dense and never using their first name a sign of love? And calling their idea to leave nonsense? This is love? I… I really don't think it is. This feels more like a condescending, argumentative relationship between two people who barely know each other. They feel like they'd become frenemies, not lovers. And I say that with all due respect to people who like Will Solace. I don't want to make enemies of his fans, since I don't actually hate him. Do I dislike 90% of his lines? Yeah. Do I hate him like I hated Luke? No. Oh, hells no. Will is okay. Not great, but okay. I just don't see romance between these two in the cards. It doesn't make much sense to me.
Now, here's Jason and Nico's scene:
"You've got a point." He straightened his glasses. "Look, Nico, the reason I wanted to you…I know what you said back at Auster's palace. I know you already turned down a place at Camp Jupiter. I-I probably can't change your mind about leaving Camp Half-Blood, but I have to -"
"I'm staying."
Jason blinked. "What?"
"At Camp Half-Blood. The Hades Cabin needs a head counselor. Have you seen the decor? It's disgusting. I'll have to remodel. And someone needs to do the burial rites properly, since demigods insist on dying heroically."
"That's - That's fantastic! Dude!" Jason opened his arms for a hug, then froze. "Right. No touching. Sorry."
Nico grunted. "I suppose we can make an exception."
Jason squeezed him so hard Nico thought his ribs would crack.
"Oh, man," Jason said. "Wait till I tell Piper. Hey, since I'm all alone in my cabin too, you and I can share at table at the dining hall. We can team up for capture the flag and sing-along contests and -"
"Are you trying to scare me away?"
"Sorry. Sorry. Whatever you say Nico. I'm just glad."
The funny thing was, Nico believed him.
There. Now, Isn't that way better? Hugs, respect for boundaries, two lonely people finally finding each other… there's so much in Jason and Nico's relationship that makes me feel happy. Rick Riordan may not have wanted them to be his same sex couple, but they're the ones that should've gotten together. Will should've been Nico's friend/friendly rival or something. But Jason and Nico have a bond beyond words. I… I legitimately can't describe it. But this type of romance works because it wasn't designed to be a romance. It's just…love. The fact that these two love each other so unconditionally… I want what they have. I don't feel ashamed of saying that. Because what they have is beautiful.
random thought, not even sure if you still like Octavian but i was watching a summary of Augustus Caesar’s reign and something interesting is that Augustus never declared himself a king or an emperor (due to not wanting to be stabby stabbed like Julius) instead he strategically made the senate acknowledge his status without making any actions or saying anything that implied that he was giving himself power
So technically if Octavian looked up to Augustus (this is me assuming Octavian would have looked up to Augustus, given he mentions his namesake) no way would he try to declare himself anything higher quoting Reyna “Octavian was elevating himself almost to the level of emperor.”
Which is giving me the impression that the whole declaring himself pontifex Maximus had nothing to do with him declaring himself like an emperor, since it would make sense for Octavian to pull smth like Augustus and not make any big moves.
Sorry for the unhinged/maybe wrong rant!
Have a great day’
I've analysed Octavian all I can without more content (if he comes out with a Roman prequel or something it will definitely reactivate my fixation lol)
It's hard to know what Riordan was going for in this scene beyond "look he's (still) evil".
Octavian definitely looks up to Augustus. He says so in this very scene. But I think the big context is whether or so New Romans care if they have a sole leader or not. On the face of it, they do, since they have two praetors and a senate. But then again, Reyna was able to reign solo for months without any objections (even Octavian didn't point the blatant power imbalance). She was technically co-ruling with Jason but regular Romans would definitely find it icky. If they do care, Octavian would need to work around that.
It's weird that he'd even do the Pontifex thing, considering he stated in the previous book that he'd be in charge if Reyna left anyway. That just seems like a great way to make them mad! Especially because Octavian would be one of the only people at Camp who could be a Pontifex in the first place. All the children of the gods are inherently bastards. And to be a Pontifex your parents have to be married in a specific way (Romans have three types of marriage).
I think this is just a case of Riordan not reading his own books back. Because Reyna also directly contradicts her previous orders in this scene as well.
In the empire, the emperor was also the Pontifex Maximus. So I think that's where Riordan ripped it from. But that makes no sense in the New Rome context since, canonically, there are no other priests! You could say Octavian was always the Pontifex Maximus based on that. Furthermore, when Jason takes the title literally no one accuses him of claiming the powers of an emperor.
If I were to read into the scene, without Reyna's hate tinted glasses, I'd say he was desperately trying to appease/communicate with the gods – which would match what Jason is told in this same book. I think it's also important to remember that Gaea is the one sending this vision. She wants Reyna to hate Octavian and will show her exactly what she needs to see for that to happen. (This fact is often overlooked by the heroes who have them)
Jason Grace is the mirror for Harry Potter, not Percy Jackson
Jason is the perfect hero. He doesn’t let his emotions cloud him, he has no biases, and most importantly, he will do whatever it takes to save the day. He seemingly lacks any flaws at the beginning of the series, and the flaws that he is later revealed to have, like his inability to understand emotion or to let someone else be the leader (even though he despises leading) are not expanded on enough in canon for it to be engaging. Though his past is rough and shaped the person he is today, it is so untouchable for the reader. Being abandoned by your alcoholic mother at the age of two to be raised by wolves, though a very interesting concept, is something no one can relate to, and therefore hard to understand the weight of.
Percy is perfect protagonist. He is emotional, he knows who he hates (and his opinion doesn’t waver), and he will forget the world to save a friend. He is flawed, angry, refuses vulnerability, despises help, has dangerous loyalty, even worse wrath, worked hard for his dangerous and seemingly unlimited power, and is full of mistakes he knows well. His past of poverty and abuse, though not something everyone can directly relate to, is something that everyone knows very well. He is real and relatable to the reader, and his inner dialogue makes you feel like you know him on a personal level.
This is basically the difference between Jason and Percy, and why where Jason was cast aside and considered boring in his own book, Percy is a main character that everyone loves and understands on an intimate level. But how does this tie to Harry?
Harry is the perfect narrator. He doesn’t speak much about himself or his personality and relationships, but rather about this world that he is infatuated with and forever part of. He doesn’t go into detail about himself as Harry, but rather about how other people see Harry, and how he doesn’t relate to that, but does nothing to stop it. Though he hates being seen as the hero, he has a strong hero complex that comes naturally to him, and this makes him be a balanced character, and a perfect narrator. He starts off as an overly sweet and curious character, who is yet to be hardened by the world in the way that Percy already has been in the Lightning Thief. He comes from a home of abuse very similar to what Percy experienced with Gabe, but with the brutality and perfection that Jason likely experienced with Lupa. He enters the Wizarding world as a child, but already he is considered a hero due to his parentage, just like Jason. And what does that leave? A boy who is only seen for the hero his absent parent was, so he is forced to become that hero to appease the people around him, looking up to someone, in this case Dumbledore and Hera, who sees him primarily as a leader, a champion, a tool, no matter how much they loved him. By the end, he’s been used, and he doesn’t even know it until he’s walking to his death and his patron doesn’t even try to help him. They both have a defining scar they’ve had practically since birth, are cast aside in their own series, and are only really ever brought up in the context of shipping. That’s it, thank you for coming to my ted talk.
I think a lot about the fact that despite all Rick's attempts to ridicule and humiliate Octavian for his femininity, he was trained in the wolf house, absolutely not the place where money or connections could help, which Rick often uses to show Octavian's "weakness" or "dishonesty". in addition, Lupa selects not only strong, but also worthy of being legionnaires, so Octavian simply cannot be as bad as Rick is trying to expose him.
Still thinking about how Leo is the only one of the seven who doesn’t really have ties outside of the quest.
Hear me out. Percy and Piper both still have a solid human life to go back too. Annabeth too although I’d say she’s more tied to camp half blood.
Frank and and Hazel both really care about camp Jupiter despite not having been there long. Jason actually feels very closely tied to both camps which causes him conflict. He seems to think he doesn’t know where he belongs but he DOES feel connected to both places.
Leo though… he’s a BIT attached to camp half blood. Not as much as the others tho. I don’t have my copy of MoA rn so I can’t find text support but I’m pretty sure there’s a part in his POV where he talks about it too. He was at Bunker 9 significantly more than the camp. It’s actually so so impressive he manages to pull his irresponsible goofball act off as much as he does. Cause like this dude WORKED. He built an impossible magic ship in like six months. I’m pretty sure there’s a part where it’s mentioned even HE doesn’t totally understand the magic power my the ship. Bonkers.
So anyway he isn’t that connected to his human life (because it burned in a dumpster fire) and he’s not that connected to camp half blood. But WAY more than the rest of the 7 he is connected to this quest. He’s literally been dreaming about this ship since he was a kid that he would one day build for there people. I think the bonds between the seven could’ve been more built up in general but I gotta say Leo has some STRONG connections compared to the rest. Jason and piper are obvious that’s literally what I made this blog about years ago.
But the rest too. He doesn’t talk with Annabeth much but they do have this interesting relationship of ship builder/commander and quest leader also both being absolute geniuses. Like the only ones who can even Kind of keep up with each other there’s a lot of mutual respect (and fear he is a bit scared of her but that’s just smart). Percy and Leo are interesting bc in theory they have so much in common but one of the only deeepish conversations the have is about Calypso?? BUT his extreme guilt when Percy and Annabeth are in Tarturus bc he thinks he traded them for Frank and Hazel??
Yeah let’s talk about Frank and Hazel. I’m ignoring the love triangle bc I don’t care for it and it’s irrelevant to what I’m talking about. Hazel and Leo have the obvious connection of Leo grandfather being Sammy but ALSO the thing we don’t talk about enough is how both of the childhoods were defined by this quest more than anyone else. Gae interfered with both of them HEAVILY and they both suffered for it, AND carry huge amounts of guilt for what she manipulated them into doing.
And then one of the most underrated friendships that is Leo and Frank. Because Frank’s one weakness is fire and Leo IS FIRE. Like they are each others worst god damn fear. Leo REALLY fears the consequences of his destructive powers which is something he has to learn to work past and Frank really fears his mortality BECAUSE HE HAS TO CARRY IT AROUKD WITH HIM SO VALID. Trusting each other is like confronting those fears… (ok so maybe it wasn’t done that well in canon but that’s not the point).
ANYWAY what’s crazy is I don’t think anyone else really realizes this. Like Leo’s whole woo is me I’m the seventh wheel thing seems really self pitying but… you could argue that everyone on the ship was more invested in someone else on board and on their lives outside of the quest. Like, this is Leo’s life. And he’s their side character (i don’t think this is actually true at all for Jason and Piper but he doesn’t know that ugh). His character is so crazy to me.
One thing I realized about Juno is that she sees herself and in some ways acts like she is Jason's mother. For example, she trying to pair him with Piper, just a mom thinking she is helping her son with his dating life. She found a great partner.
I just think it would have been interisting to see her relationship with Jason, and well in my views Juno seems to be a controling mother. She cares for Jason deeply, and she thinks she knows what is best for him and won't consider his opinions on making decisions that will affect his life. I also think that she is not afraid to use him in her plans as a pawn although I believe she says to herself she is doing it for his own good.
MY BOYS. TELL ME ABOUT MY BOYS. JASON AND OCTAVIAN. MY LOVELY BOYS IN LOVE.
Lmao, I won’t be answering this with the relationship ask game, cause I just reblogged the post that started it all here and that was Jason/Octavian.
So, Octavian and Jason <3
We love the duo. And with my thoughts on Octavian’s motives, well ouch.
The two were in love! And then Juno stole Jason away and plopped him in with Piper and tricked Piper into thinking they were in love :( Then when Jason and Octavian next met Jason was against Octavian and with some random girl and Octavian was crushed. This is full on heartbreak, this destroyed Octavian, he’s heartbroken.
Plus another guy is there, who Jason clearly holds in high esteem, what’s Octavian to do? The love of his life found someone else the moment he turned around :’(
It’s a very sad day, and Octavian kinda spirals. He was already open to the influence of Gaea (because his love was gone, because he thought it was Reyna, because he was trying to keep his city together) but Jason not even remembering them after everything they’ve been through? That broke him.
...
Angie this is all your fault now I actually legit ship this and it’s appearing in my rewrite I demand re-compensation. Make me art of the ship.
Anyways, Octavian went wild because of all these factors, and don’t forget the Gaea factor.
And then in the end he goes up in flames, he burns and saves the day, to fire the world fell because storm left Octavian alone.
The prophecy was always about Octavian’s fire, his love for Jason, and Jason’s storm and the storm he put in Octavian’s heart.
do you think Octavian is queer coded?and if yes can you explain why?I read a post from another person that wrote that he is because of his description in the books (sorry I can’t remember the user or the details),what do you think about that?
I've wanted to talk about something along these lines for a little while, so thanks for the ask! I think I read that post as well, and I generally agreed with it.
While I’m not sure if I’d call it queer-coded, I’d definitely argue he’s got plenty of feminine traits. And a guy being effeminate is often used in queer-coding.
“Don’t you have… I don’t know,” Percy said, “an oracle or something?” [Son of Neptune]
One of the first things we learn about Octavian is that he has the gift of prophecy.
In the Riordanverse, seeing into the future is feminine. While there are male seers, they are usually coupled with a female character, almost as a counterbalance.
The most famous of the seers, the Oracle of Delphi, is always a woman. Rachel, the oracle in the attic, and May Castellan are the sources of prophecy in the original series. Yes, Percy does have prophetic dreams but these aren’t viewed in the same way as a gift of prophecy. They are just your standard "demigod dreams" and not something he can control.
No, the first male seer we have in the main series is Octavian. It takes until The Dark Prophecy for another male to join the ranks: Trophonius.
Halcyon Green does appear in The Demigod Diaries, but I’m inclined to set that to the side. While canon, Halcyon’s character is not featured in the main series. He's not even mentioned in The Trials of Apollo.
However, Trophonius is a bit different to Octavian. He is paired with another: Georgina. They are both tied to the Dark Oracle.
And this trend is not just seen with Trophonius. There is the Arrow of Dodona as well, which speaks in a masculine voice. The Arrow is a branch from a grove associated with Rhea, a goddess.
Prophecy isn’t exclusive to female characters but it is feminine. And when we do have a masculine seer, there is usually a feminine counterpart (Arrow & Rhea, Trophonius & Georgina).
But Octavian has no feminine counterpart.
Yes, Ella is introduced in the same book, but their powers are not linked. Nor is their story. In fact, I would argue that Octavian’s desire to possess the Sibylline book works to counter this pairing.
No, Octavian holds his power independently. And, as if the bridge that disconnect, Riordan makes him more effeminate (often portraying this in a negative light but I wouldn't be going into that much here).
A pretty impressive trick, considering the kid didn’t look like much. [Son of Neptune]
Octavian is repeatedly said to look harmless or unintimidating. Despite warnings, Percy doesn’t believe Octavian could be a force to be reckoned with. This is done to show that Octavian’s power is not physical.
“You’re a warrior. Octavian is a talker. Put him in front of the senate, and suddenly he becomes the powerful one.”
Now, being a good politician isn’t necessarily feminine - it's gender neutral, especially in the "underhanded" portrayal of Octavian's politics.
However, I want to point out Octavian’s favoured weapon. We know that Octavian would be well versed in all the weapons of Rome, and since he’s part of the most prestigious cohort, he should have access to any weapon he wants. But Octavian is almost always using a knife – whether it be his augur’s knife, the iron knife of a pontifex, or something unspecified (I’m assuming a pugio). No other male main character uses a knife as their favoured weapon, but there are two female characters who fight with knives: Annabeth and Piper. Like Octavian, they fight don’t fight with their physical strength. But in the case of Octavian, who is male, this is viewed in a negative light.
Now these things should be seen in the context of Octavian's character as a whole. These could be easily dismissed when we consider that everything Riordan does with Octavian is done to 'other’ him. Octavian often described as a scarecrow. At once point he’s called ‘ghoulish’. So Octavian’s character isn’t just made to see effeminate. All of this is simply done to make him different, regardless of how that need be achieved. That’s why Octavian is often said to be coded as disabled, or coded as autistic, etc. Riordan hit a lot of check boxes when he was creating this character.
Yes, he has the power of prophecy. Yes, his favoured weapon is a knife. If that was it, I think we could all pack up and go home. No coding happening here. But that’s not where it stops.
Let's get into Octavian's voice.
Octavian screamed in a shrill voice – maybe ordering the First Cohort to stand their ground, maybe trying to sing soprano – but Percy put a stop to it. [SON]
Soprano is the highest vocal range and of course ‘shrill’ itself means high-pitched and piercing. If this was a one off thing, we could probably ignore it, but Octavian often showed to have a high-pitched voice.
Time for the shrieking speed-run! (btw, definition of ‘shriek’ is a high-pitched piercing sound or words)
“I was just there!” Octavian shrieked. “I saw it with my own eyes!”
“Surrender to Rome!” Octavian shrieked.
Over by the docks, a familiar voice shrieked over the wind: “Kill them! Kill them all!”
‘You will be destroyed!’ Octavian shrieked.
Bonus:
Octavian made a squeaking sound. “What as that for?”
“Reyna!” Octavian cried. “You can’t seriously be considering this!
Now, this might just be because Octavian yells constantly. He’s almost always yelling or shouting, or in this case, shrieking. But it’s still a very consistent thing that happens with his character.
I want to point out, as well, that Octavian’s voice only goes higher when he lacks control over a situation. In Son of Neptune, he’s fully capable of shouting without his voice being high-pitched:
“Silence!” Octavian’s voice sounded a lot more commanding than it had the previous night on the battlefield.
This comes back to Octavian's feminine traits being considered negative. I'm not expert, but I wouldn't be surprised is this was all part of the "queer-coded villain" stereotype.
Now, let's talk about Octavian and... men.
Reyna had always liked Mike Kahale. Unfortunately, Mike was very loyal to his sponsor. And his sponsor was Octavian. [BOO]
Please note the italics here – why are there italics, Rick? He already added the word "very", but then he put that modifier in italics. Is something more significant is being hinted at?
“That’s one of Octavian’s right-hand men, but he’s a good legionnaire. I may be able to reason with him.” [BOO]
From this line, we learn that Mike is not the only ‘right hand man’ Octavian has. Which is unusual because, by definition, you should really only have one. And it's not "right-hands" but "right-hand men". So we've gendered it. But we do know, from previous scenes, that Octavian is often followed around by more than one burly guy.
By himself, the skinny augur wouldn’t have bothered her, but the two other guys looked like seasoned warriors – a lot bigger and stronger than Annabeth wanted to deal with, especially since Piper and she were armed only with daggers. [MoA]
Two centurions leaned casually on their javelins, chatting with a tall skinny blond guy in a purple toga. Leo stumbled. It was that freak Octavian, the augur from Camp Jupiter, who was always screaming for war. [HoH]
For the second quote, we don’t know the gender of the centurions but, well, most of the centurions are male – so it wouldn’t be so shocking to learn these are men too.
We don't know Octavian's relationship with these people. However, it does feel like the cherry on top of a cake, you know?
Since I'm no expert on queer-coding in media, far from it, I wouldn't want to say "yes he's definitely queer-coded" but he does feel that way from where I'm standing.
