#jenovaroth

[sapphirothcrescent]

I like the theory that Sephiroth puppets Jenova. I like the theory that Jenova is puppeting Sephiroth. Both theories GOOD. ❤️ People who only subscribe to one theory are good so long as they don't dislike the people who enjoy the other.

[pen-and-umbra]

ok but let’s get into the DIRT and break this down like sephiroth dissecting a mako pod. if sephiroth had the sheer will to resist jenova’s “reunion” possession during the robio incident in first soldier ep2,then his little nibelheim meltdown wasn’t some tragic puppet show. bro had agency. he chose to burn it all down after reading some scribbled notes in the mansion library..

“jenova made me” is pure gaslighting—if he could shut her out once, he could’ve done it again. but nah, he vibed with the villain arc

Hard disagree. It is completely inappropriate to compare these two scenarios.

During the Robio mission, Sephiroth has not yet dealt with the years of festering trauma and combat experiences that will contribute to his emotional burden later on. While scarred, he has not endured **years** of being celebrated as a phony hero while powerless to deter ShinRA's shenanigans. His companionships have not yet bloomed and grown, only to deteriorate into vanishing acts and bitterness. As a teenager, he is still in the early stages of that path and has not reached a breaking point.

Moreover, it is crucial to acknowledge the significance of starvation, sleep deprivation, and isolation, as these factors directly impacted Sephiroth's mental and emotional state during THAT mission. Unlike the isolation he experiences in Nibelheim, Sephiroth is surrounded by people in Robio. Angeal, regardless of personal feelings, is a by-the-book leader who prioritizes formal assignments, chain of command and team duty. Meaning that he wouldn't back off just because Sephiroth asked him to. This is fairly different from the circumstances Sephiroth had while staying at Mako reactor and the mansion basement.

Zack and Sephiroth were friendly enough, but their dynamic was more like that of a mentor and a student, with Zack playing an assistant role. Zack still regards Sephiroth as a larger-than-life superman, as I briefly mentioned here. He never considered that Sephiroth might struggle to handle a situation. This is exemplified in the Nibelheim episode, where Sephiroth is isolated in the basement, plagued by intrusive (and quite possibly Jenova-induced) thoughts and accumulated anguish, while Zack remains unaware and enjoys peaceful time at the inn. Zack refrains from checking on him because he cannot fathom Sephiroth's potential inability to process a certain situation/information. Zack's perception of Sephiroth's strength and resilience is so strong that he fails to recognize signs of vulnerability, resulting in missed opportunities for intervention. The disconnect between his admiration and Sephiroth's internal struggles eventually contributes to the unfortunate events that occur later.

Given teen!Sephiroth's resilience and lack of extreme stressors in Robio, it's understandable that he can YET resist Jenova's (?? or whatever power is behind all that woo) attempts at manipulation. In contrast to Nibelheim events, he also does not experience physical and psychological effects of sleep deprivation, hunger, dehydration, or the need to confront personal struggles while avoiding burdening his squadmates. (By contrast, look at him shutting himself down when the topic of family & hometown pops up upon arrival at Nibelheim.)

Bottom line. Sephiroth embodies the dangers of perceived strength. When life presents challenges, you deal with it because you have no choice. However, once you've dealt with it, people expect you to keep doing so. When someone is seen as strong, others typically do not inquire casually about their well-being. Sephiroth's mental fortitude and practiced self-restraint were a mixed blessing; they shielded him from external manipulation (only for so long, of course), but they also isolated him from the support he needed. In other words, his practiced stoicism becomes a liability; no one intervenes because no one **believes** he needs help.

Who knows, if Zack had trusted his instincts about Sephiroth's strange behavior and stayed in the mansion for that fateful week, the outcome might have been different. Essentially Zack’s admiration blinds him to Sephiroth’s vulnerability. He interprets Sephiroth’s isolation as “handling things,” failing to recognize the signs of collapse. This isn’t fault-finding, but a critique of how we fail those who “seem strong.”

In the end, Sephiroth’s seeming resistance in Robio doesn’t negate his collapse in Nibelheim, but highlights how trauma, isolation, and emotional neglect created the perfect conditions for his fall, whether Jenova-driven or not.

[saintcarlyon]

I think it’s worth noting that SE chose to have Miniroth slash at Angeal when his frustration peaks. It’s a childish and dangerous reaction, whether he was conditioned to react with violence or it’s in his nature. Even more chilling is when Miniroth calmly complains that his blade failed to scare (or hurt?) Angeal.

It’s a good reminder that Sephiroth can, and eventually does, choose violence when he’s reached his tolerance limit for frustration. Especially when the latest episode is demonstrating how very susceptible he is to external influences. Both good and bad! It’s great that he relaxed and bonded with Glenn & Co. It’s great that he was convinced to meet Rosen despite his anxiety*. It’s bad that the Ibara region is straining him emotionally. It’s super bad that a Jenova illusion (whether it’s JENOVA herself or spirits**) has complete sway over him in his dreams.

So far, FFVII:EC and the new FFVII games are doing a good job walking the line of sympathizing with a villain without excusing his actions. …What they aren’t doing is convincing me that Sephiroth it so strong willed that he overcame JENOVA***.

*I am not sure I understand this scene. It came off as jealousy or fear of being left behind in favor of Rosen, but then he has a fight and feels better? Is this one of those shonen tropes where battle provides instant clarity that friendship is magic?

** I’m leaning to JENOVA herself because Bachmann isn’t having dreams. I think she’s only able to affect those with her cells. Which makes the decision to send these two interesting!!

*** I’m also starting to think maybe Jenova either A) intended to use one of the SOLDIERs as a new body (hence trying to “kill” them) and maybe that’s one of the reasons Hojo wants beautiful heroes… because JENOVA wants to be beautiful.

*** Or, B) JENOVA genuinely comes to love her obedient son, Sephiroth. So it’s less that he overpowers her will so much as she relinquishes a lot of control.

[pen-and-umbra]

Another detail to ponder about. In addition to strongly alluding to Vincent's and Lucrecia’s scene from Dirge of Cerberus, the dream scene between Sephiroth and Jenova bears strong resemblance to Cetran Promised Land, as featured in FFVII Remakes ShinRA HQ tour. The lush greenery and distinct purple flowers are particularly noteworthy.

Later, during Nibelheim incident, Sephiroth alludes to going to / reclaiming Promised Land together with "mother".

[pen-and-umbra]

I was just wondering something. OG spoilers I guess? 🙄 Anyway FS makes it so that Sephiroth sort of knew about mom in a sense that he had that picture locket until Glen kicked it away. Then,,Crisis core through Gen tells us that Sephiroth got told only her name, which doesn't hold true now. It got me thinking that in OG Seph is supposed to learn everything, and then come up with his big bang plan…but he never learns that the woman from the picture was REAL, as in his real biological parent, not some lovecraftian monster?? does it represent that he never finds anything about Lucrecia or just no longer cares and accepts Jenova's wat?🤔 Or is it supposed to mean that once he went psycho in Nibelheim, he never gained clarity in the lifestream afterwards? Many fans say that Seph got his mind back after “death”, but then there's the fact that he never bothered to look for the lost photo and the woman in it. Now I know it's a retcon, but it kinda bothers me 

Yk anon, I was thinking along similar lines; not Lucrecia-centric, specifically, but similar. Had you asked me this question years prior to Remake’s release, I would have told you in no uncertain terms that, yes, after falling into the Lifestream Sephiroth embraces Jenova as the only thing that is left for him — the only thing that provides his existence with a purpose, a place, a connection. Whether it's the result of a mental breakdown and subsequent psychosis, or a conscious choice motivated by a desire to feel superior to humans who „wronged“ him.

Eh, but Rebirth and now First Soldier episodes definitely muddied the waters for me, although I had always considered the Nibelheim incident to be a very — tragically — gray area.

Even if Sephiroth is not mindjacked by Jenova, as Rebirth seemingly implies, why is there such a strong belief that he regained his marbles in the Lifestream? The game's extended compilation promotes the idea that anguished spirits are still delusional, hateful, and anguished after being swept into the Lifestream. IIRC, some of the Aerith side novellas (Lifestream White or The Maiden Who Travels The Planet, can't recall which) touch on the idea that these spirits must be pacified, which is what Aerith tries to do in order to bring back balance. Sephiroth would remain just as delulu in the Lifestream as he was when he took the dive. As you mentioned, one could also argue that he never truly learns the whole truth, such as the fact that he actually had a human mother who is, in fact, still around.

Yet Jenova's mindjacking, as hinted at by his possessed-like behavior in Rebirth, really drives this angle of skewed perception, of overlooking bits of information and acting as if they never existed. Cloud's case exemplifies this well.

Right after Cloud finishes his account of the Nibelheim massacre, Jenovaroth raises some doubts in his mind about Tifa, which eventually leads to the two of them having a little spat about it in Kalm.

Tifa shows Cloud the scar she received that night when she attempted to stab Sephiroth. Cloud takes that information in. Spool forward, and during the fight in the Gongaga reactor, Cloud effortlessly forgets about the scar and attacks Tifa. All because Jenovaroth used suggestion to mind-control Cloud and plant specific ideas.

The most fascinating aspect is that Cloud later regains memory of this event, but only as a passenger or passive observer. He is horrified when he sees his limbs act independently and sees himself move.

The scene made me rethink the previously held black-and-white belief that Sephiroth had found out „the truth“ in the Lifestream but CHOSE to act according to Jenova's will. I believe it's a much more of a grey area now, and various conflicting pieces of information from the extended compilation and old Ultimanias (and such like) really do not help it. Who is to say Jenova didn't do the same thing to Sephiroth? Changing his perception or ability to perceive in ways that benefited the creature, both before and after Nibelheim. To prevent certain pieces of information from being consciously processed, such as those of Jenova being a parasitic monster who wiped out the Cetra. Or, as you point out, the piece about the woman in the photo.

There's something else to think about. Sephiroth's physical body is eventually repaired with Jenova cells in the Northern Crater, resulting in a symbiotic/physical link. Who's to say her hold on his mind/spirit ever weakened? In fact, I'm not sure if the Sephiroth that emerges after Nibelheim is entirely Sephiroth who has lost his mind, or if it's a chimera. Not in the sense that the party encounters and fights bits and pieces of Jenova that shapeshift into Sephiroth, but in the sense that the consciousness that controls them isn't entirely Sephiroth's, as in he's not the sole driver (hence why I usually use „Jenovaroth“). Jenova „wears the faces of the dead“ per Cetra. I don't think it solely reflects the entity's ability to change its appearance, but something bigger. An ability to „become“ the subject it imitates by emulating their personal traits. After all, „she can peer deep into your soul“, in other words, to learn all that makes up a person.

Now this is just guesswork. However, the Remake — and quite possibly FS too now — appear to be oddly insistent on revising Jenova's abilities and related lore. Who knows what purpose it serves. But honestly, the very fact that Jenovaroth is capable of making someone “forget” or “ignore” certain knowledge they had by overriding it, like in case of Tifa’s scar, is truly terrifying.

[pen-and-umbra]

Jenova, Minerva, LOVELESS, The Queen and the Gi connection, pt. 2

Part 1 - Jenova, Minerva, LOVELESS, The Queen and the Gi connection, pt. 1

The most astounding lore connection, however, is found elsewhere, concealed within one of the mini-games. At a certain stage, Queen's Blood becomes a fully fledged side quest, and the now-deceased creator of the game, Lidrehl, contacts Cloud to relay an intriguing story behind it.

(“Once, there lived a queen of peerless beauty and compassion. She loved her people, and in turn, they loved her. But one day, a change came over the queen. In a blink of an eye, her love turned to hate, her compassion to cruelty. Fair and beauteous though she remained, her heart became black as pitch. Conquest was now her cause, her subjects mere fodder to feed her boundless ambition. And so her kingdom grew as her subjects perished. Until, that is, a ray of hope appeared – a sorceress who would be their salvation. The Emerald Witch they called her. And with her arcane powers, she led the people into rebellion, captured the queen, and put her to death. Yet from the tyrant’s body spilled blood as dark as shadow. And from this wicked ichor, the myriad fiends of the world were born. And that... is the story of the Shadowblood Queen. Some call it a parable. A myth. A fairy tale. And I wish it were! But she is as real as you and I! And she is coming. Her resurrection is nigh.”)

“In a blink of an eye, her love turned to hate, her compassion to cruelty. Fair and beauteous though she remained, her heart became black as pitch”—this passage describes the metamorphosis Sephiroth undergoes during Nibelheim flashback to a tee. The language used to depict the queen's transformation - "in a blink of an eye, her love turned to hate, her compassion to cruelty"— parallels Sephiroth's own shift from heroism to villainy. “Conquest was now her cause, her subjects mere fodder to feed her boundless ambition” — anything rings a bell?

“This planet is my birthright! [FFVII Remake & Rebirth]”, “What I want, Cloud, is to sail the darkness of the cosmos with this planet as my vessel, just as my mother did long ago. Then one day we'll find a new planet. And on its soil, we'll create a shining future [FFVII AC]”, “My dominion shall reach into infinity” [FFVII Rb], “I am the chosen one. I have been chosen to be the leader/ruler of this Planet [FFVII OG]”. Birthright, dominion, and leadership are all expressions associated with the concept of a ruler or sovereign, much like a king or queen. Similarly, the excerpt stating "her kingdom grew as her subjects perished" signals a conquest and the losses suffered by the queen's people as a consequence.

Lidrehl's story thus appears to be the first case of Jenova infestation, offering a plausible explanation for the origins of the “female” entity known as Jenova. A female ruler of an unnamed people (possibly the Cetra or the Gi) appears to have had an inexplicable change of heart and embarked on a path of destruction. It is conceivable that this entity, possibly the ruler of the Gi, descended on the planet via a meteor (“subjects perished” = perhaps the Gi old world perished as a result of their queen's conquest? This implication is discussed in pt.1) in order to pursue its “boundless ambitions”. This mirrors the plan Sephiroth outlines to Cloud before their confrontation in Advent Children, emphasizing the parallel between the two narratives. “<...> …to sail the darkness of the cosmos with this planet as my vessel <...> Then one day we'll find a new planet. And on its soil, we'll create a shining future”.

On the other hand, the ruler could be Cetran, and whatever caused her to change bore virus-like nature (think of how AC! Sephiroth released Geostigma, which infected people with Jenova's organics). It's somewhat puzzling that the Temple of Ancients makes no mention of their supposed queen when referring to the malicious “celestial adversary”. Then again, it could be reflected in the account of their “enemy” being a shape-shifter who wore the faces of their deceased to spread discord among people.

In fact, the supposed queen may have been killed by this alien entity and wound up dead (as human Sephiroth was after Nibelheim), but the alien entity was impersonating her (again, much like Jenova at various points takes the form of Sephiroth in OG and Remake). Whatever corrupted the queen came with the meteor (the Gi connection again?). Incidentally, the Northern Crater is sitting on the same continent where the Forgotten Capital is located. If there was an alien virus-like substance there, it could have potentially reached the city — a detail that also resonates with Shiva summon lore, as she allegedly froze the impact region to “staunch” the wound.

“An ice-elemental entity and ruler over the world of ice. It is said that she once saved the planet from certain destruction by staunching a great wound with a glacier.” [Loading screen description of Shiva]

Conversely, the ruler of Cetran people could have taken measures to address the disaster, and got infected or killed on site. 

“Until that is, a ray of hope appeared—a sorceress who would be their salvation. The Emerald Witch, they called her. And with her arcane powers, she led the people into rebellion, captured the queen, and put her to death”. Given that the Cetra are described as being more attuned to magic and the arcane, it is reasonable to assume the Emerald Witch was indeed a Cetra. Furthermore, the term “emerald” directly alludes to the color of Mako and the Lifestream. When Aerith pacifies the Lifestream at the Temple of Ancients, she effectively becomes a Lifestream whisperer, or a sorceress.

Therefore, it is reasonable to assume the powers the Emerald Witch possessed were likely linked to the ability to manipulate Lifestream energy on a grand scale. Not too dissimilar to what Aerith does in the original ending, huh?

“Yet from the tyrant’s body spilled blood as dark as shadow. And from this wicked ichor, the myriad fiends of the world were born”—this is highly reminiscent of the Negative Lifestream from Advent Children or the dark essence Kadaj was using to infuse water at the Forgotten Capital. Or even the Geostigma.

Viewed in a broader context, this suggests the passage is referring to the manner in which Jenova's cells spread to infect individuals and animals, potentially reflecting its virulent nature or hinting at the deliberate experiments conducted by ShinRA.

The Shadowblood Queen card bears striking resemblances to the wall depictions of Jenova in the Temple of the Ancients, including hidden eyes, flowing locks, and a hairstyle reminiscent of a meteor shape. The latter, in turn, oddly echoes Rosa's portrayal in LOVELESS, the headpiece in particular.

Conversely, the Emerald Witch card shows similarities to the Goddess Materia statue (the cowl) in Crisis Core, suggesting a possible association with Minerva. The Cetra connection is further solidified by FFVII Remake's ShinRA HQ VR tour. It highlights the traditional Cetra white robe and a cowl when touching upon the subject of harnessing Lifestream's power [through creation of Materia].

As the Planet's avatar, Minerva is an ideal candidate for being a sorceress capable of manipulating the Lifestream. This implies that Minerva may have once been a mortal Cetra, the Emerald Witch. Furthermore, the flower-garland garment on the Emerald Witch card shares surprising similarities to the one Aerith wore while performing her song in the LOVELESS play.

Interestingly, the flowers depicted on the card are of the yellow variety, which provides a nod to the flowers associated with Aerith throughout the franchise. This might hint at Omni!Aerith's new role and mission, drawing a direct parallel between the Emerald Witch card and Aerith's mission.

There's another dead giveaway that connects the Shadowblood Queen and Jenova. As Lidrehl wraps up his story, we are given a glimpse of a robed figure putting their arms threateningly over him. There's no mistake here, as the robe sleeves bear the telltale tears and tatters of “failed clones”. To highlight this, the figure vanishes with distinctive purple/magenta effects similar to those of Jenovaroth and Jenova. 

What's more, when relaying the account of Shadowblood Queen, Lidrehl uses a very specific language, used only by Aerith to describe Jenova in the first part of the Remake.

Lidrehl: “That foul thing is the source of this nightmare <...>” Aerith: [before Jenova Dreamweaver battle] “The source. Of everything.”

Lidrehl’s final words are full of grim promise. 

(“Some call it a parable. A myth. A fairy tale. And I wish it were! But she is as real as you and I! And she is coming. Her resurrection is nigh”.)

Her resurrection. Not Sephiroth's. It is Jenova who will come back.

This detail lends more weight to Sephiroth's cryptic speech about his “fragmented mother” in the Temple of Ancients.

(“My fragmented mother, these errant worlds… All shall be one again.”)

From a broader perspective, the purpose of the Reunion remains the same: to bring Jenova's cell bearers together, but this time the meeting will span across timelines to make the “fragmented mother” whole again [as extensively discussed here], thus fulfilling Lidrehl's prophetic statement of Shadowblood's Queen resurrection looming. Additionally, Sephiroth's message about creating infinity/eternity to rule all the creation forever aligns with Jenova's boundless ambition for conquest, as described by Lidrehl: "Conquest was now her cause, her subjects mere fodder to feed her boundless ambition." In fact, the godhood aspiration that Sephiroth exhibits in the original game can be seen as a reflection of Jenova's/Shadowblood's own limitless ruling ambition.

(“It shall encompass worlds unbound by fate and histories unwritten. <...> My dominion shall reach into infinity”)

In essence, the Queen's Blood game retells an ancient myth about Jenova's origins and supposedly the Cetran victory over it. Lidrehl's story also seems to reveal the original identity of Minerva, suggesting that the Emerald Witch's true identity and arcane knowledge could hold a key to defeating Jenova. Whatever the case may be, Lidrehl was unquestionably killed for this knowledge, as evidenced by the threatening presence which appeared by the end of his speech, and generally we can surmise as much from the card game quest. Based on the earlier discussion, it seems that the LOVELESS play is another aspect, a precursor, or perhaps a (human?) perspective of the same story. Although some details may have been altered or mixed up over time, the similarities remain. As such, Rosa's character prototype may have once been the Queen who became corrupted. Similarly, the character Aerith portrays during her vocal performance might have been inspired by the Emerald Witch, who I believe was the mortal form of Minerva.

Lidrehl's story also seems to point in the direction of Jenova's resurrection, with Jenova being an active, sentient and autonomous agent that has a history of mindjacking other living beings. The account of a fair and kind Queen suddenly and inexplicably becoming corrupted serves as a deliberate parallel and a precursor to Sephiroth's case of a renowned hero drastically turning wicked and cruel. FFVII Rebirth's version of Nibelheim flashback further corroborates this idea, from strongly emphasizing Jenova-esque glitches Sephiroth experiences to outright superimposing Jenova's face over his, thus conveying a sense of possession.

If Jenova was indeed once a Cetran ruler, or more accurately, if it once actually infested a Cetran body like a virus and NOT shapeshifted into one, then this brings a layer of paradoxical irony to ShinRA's early findings. They were not wrong to classify the being as an Ancient. This would also lend more weight to Jenovaroth's ability to bend and control the Whispers, as he would have some of the Ancients' blood in him, much like Omni!Aerith supposedly does with White Whispers. The “choking” and “corroding” of the Lifestream to overpower and command it does evoke the Cetran characteristic relationship with the Planet, albeit twisted in nature.

This also raises intriguing questions about Sephiroth's biological makeup and may offer a clue to defeating Jenovaroth. If the Jenova substance was foreign to the Cetra's ruler own organism, then it is equally foreign to Sephiroth. If the being we know as Jenova is merely an infected Cetra, then Sephiroth was implanted with Cetran cells harboring something else. Therefore, to eradicate the Jenovaroth threat permanently, the party may need to devise a method not only to defeat Jenovaroth in battle, but to “cleanse” the infection, thereby severing the symbiotic/parasitic grip Jenova has on living organisms. This approach echoes how Aerith purged the Geostigma infection in Advent Children.

.......

Screenshots courtesy of Mapocolops comprehensive video on Queen's Blood quest. Other reads:

Jenova, Minerva, LOVELESS, The Queen and the Gi connection, pt. 1

Jenova being awake & Was Sephiroth possessed?

Jenova resurrecting itself across timelines?

👋 @pen-and-umbra

Jul 26, 2024