#oppression dynamics

[notabled-noodle]

suspicious as all heck when I see people trying to claim that any one group is more oppressed than anyone else, as if different contexts don’t matter, or as if intersecting identities mean nothing

[astrabear]

Dr. Latting is an old family friend, so when she posted a link to this on Facebook I clicked over to check it out: https://www.leadingconsciously.com/blog/how-do-you-move-on-when-the-wrong-people-think-theyre-the-real-victim-74

There’s one particular quote that really got my attention. “While perpetrator groups are mainly concerned about protecting the ingroup’s moral identity and avoiding the ingroup’s responsibility and its consequences, victim groups are concerned about protecting their group from future harm and having their group’s victimization acknowledged.”

This seems like a handy little rubric when evaluating conflicts where both parties are aggrieved. For example, if one person points out what they perceive as racism/sexism/etc, and another person feels attacked by that and thinks that the problem resides with the first person. If the consequences of Person A’s behavior are “Person B (or Persons B-L) might not feel like or be seen as a good person,” then Person B (or Persons B-L) are not actually victims, especially if Person A is discussing concrete harms. This does not obligate you to agree with Person A (although it would be good to consider their argument thoughtfully), but it does mean that anger, defensiveness, and counter-attacks are unwarranted.

This is a completely random observation and nothing to do with any discussions in any fandom anywhere.

[stfudiscoinfernoed-archive]

What is your opinion on the very common take that "trans men are men and have unrestricted access to male privilege"? Is that something you believe? If so, how do you reconcile it with the idea that straight trans people have limited access to straight privilege on the basis of being trans? If not, why do you think it's wrong?

Idk who is out there saying that trans men have unrestricted access to male privilege. Most people acknowledge they don't. What you might be seeing is the discussion about how even before a trans man passes or is recognized as a man and starts gaining access to male privilege, he benefits from how men are positively portrayed and over-represented in society/positions of power. The messages he receives aren't that it's bad to be a man, they are that it's bad to be a trans man. He benefits in the way that all marginalized men benefit from being men, even if their marginalization mean the validity of or their access to manhood is called into question.

[vixianna]

But Where’s the Legislation?!

Is it just me, or are other PoC uncomfortable with the white discoursers obsession with legislation as the One True Form of Systematic Oppression? Not only is that not true, but expecting legislation in a 21st century western country to specifically mention a group completely misunderstands how oppression actually works.

Black people are still oppressed in America, and it’s not because there is specific legislation mentioning us to keep us from getting houses or marrying. That’s not what oppression looks like in America. (For the most part. Not even the bathroom bills that target transness specifically mention trans people.)

What you should look for in legislation, when you’re looking at legislation, is disproportionate impact. You are looking to see if how the law is crafted, regardless of if it was the crafter’s intent, disproportionately impacts one group over another. 

The reason for marriage equality isn’t because it specifically targeted LGBT+ folks, but because it disproportionately affected(basically entirely affected) the community. The reason the voter ID laws are getting struck down right now isn’t because it specifically mentions PoCs, but because it disproportionately affects us. 

And this is a specifically white problem and outlook. It’s the same as when white racists scream about how “Jim Crow is over and there’s no segregation and there’s no oppression now!” It’s the same with the white liberal obsession with legal rights, like marriage equality, meaning that LGBT+ oppression is over. It’s the same when exclusionists and inclusionists center their whole goddamn arguments about whether this or that legislation actually does fucking whatever to ace people. (Show me the country where it’s ILLEGAL to be ace?????!)

That’s a damn smoke screen. Oppression, systematic oppression, isn’t based around explicit marginalization from society. Marginalization in this case being the society in question is trying to force the group out of society itself. To be “marginalized” here isn’t the same as what most people in the discourse use the word to mean. Being kicked out of your home, denied housing, fired from your job, ect. are forms of marginalization. They seek not to exploit members of the class, but drive them from society itself.

The most basic forms of oppression involve economic exploitation. So, you’ll see members of this class concentrated in positions that allow their labor to be extracted from them without fair(or with no) compensation. This is why, one of the reasons why, LGBT+ people are disproportionately poor. (The same with PoC. There’s a longer, semi-related post, about how race was created and maintained to craft a social class of proles to be economically exploited for the norm’d classes benefit.) 

There are other forms of (systematic) oppression of course, but marginalization is the most severe form of physical material oppression. When Marginalization takes place, the society has “decided” this crafted class is so “abhorrent” they aren’t even worth economically exploiting. (Think of the genocides of indigenous people’s around the world.) 

Therefore, it’s possible, and in fact entirely probable that systematic oppression is taking place without Marginalization.(the final form of Marginalization is attempted or completed genocide btw.) By the time legislation comes into play that is specifically crafted to curtail the rights, movement, freedom, ect of a crafted class, you are in the beginning stages of Marginalization. 

Most oppression these days(ableism is an exception), isn’t in a Marginalization stage. It’s in less extreme stages of oppression(this includes against PoC, including fellow black people.) 

That being the case, how can we conclude systematic oppression is taking place before we get to the extremes of Marginalization? 

I mentioned Economic Exploitation, and considering we’re living in a Capitalist fun house of death and suffering, that’s a good place to start. There’s also Systematic Violence. I consider all forms of oppression systematic violence, but in this cause I mean physical(and emotional) violence and abuse. Increased deaths, sexual assault, physical assaults, arson, defacing of property, ect. You’re looking at people burning down or bombing religious centers(or the attack on the LGBT center that happened recently). This will happen at the individual and larger levels of an identified group. So, disproportionately violent interactions accruing to a certain group is an example of systematic oppression. 

For systematic oppression absent Marginalization, we would expect to see Economic Exploitation and Systematic Violence.

So discoursers, on both sides, should be asking:

- Are aces disproportionately targeted for physical violence? - Are aces disproportionately poor? - Are aces disproportionately homeless? - Are aces exposed to increased violence against their property?(i.e. someone torching your home for being ace)

Ect.   

Another form of systematic oppression is “powerlessness” and this comes from the group in question being forced away from positions of power in society. This is open LGBT+ people being removed from office or not voted for. This is, in an internalized way, members of the group thinking they will never end their own oppression(I’ve seen discourers say this, all of them exclusionists, but this is a common sentiment among the oppressed). Radical liberation thinking involves the idea you can accrue power and dismantle the system oppressing you, and one of the more insidious ways that oppression works to keep the oppressed buying into the system itself is forcing them to believe their oppression is inevitable and unchangeable.

One of the biggest results of “powerlessness” on a personal level is psychological disorder. Feeling you have no control over your life or power to protect yourself/do things, causes psychological distress. For groups affected by oppression which takes the form of powerlessness(and powerlessness is a psychological campaign taken up by the norm’d group in power), you’d expect to see increased mental illness. You also expect feelings of brokenness, worthlessness, self-esteem problems, comparing themselves to the norm and hating that they deviate, ect.

So discoursers on both sides should be asking:

- Do aces experience higher than average rates of depression? - Do aces experience higher than average rates of anxiety? - Are they more likely to be suicidal or self harm? - Is this psychological distress used to signal that they are ‘unfit’ or inherently ‘sick’? - Are aces disproportionately barred from positions of power in society?

As a final semi-related note, there is a difference between visibility, hypervisibility, and invisibility, that isn’t really talked about in discourse. Neither hypervisibility or invisibility is good or a privilege. Black people are hypervisible(and invisible), trans people(especially trans women) are hypervisible. NDN people’s and Asian peoples and Ace people are invisible. People who are hypervisible often see invisibility as a gift or proof of lack of oppression. It’s not. To be invisible is to be rendered not just unseen, but silenced. Your pain, suffering, oppression isn’t just ignored, it is denied. Both the “model minority” myth for Asians and “all NDNs are extinct” myth exist to deny, ignore, and (at the most extreme) silence the experiences and oppression of these two groups. Hypervisibility requires being surveilled but not seen. It means being viewed as an object, being fetishized, being treated as rhetorical device instead of human. It means being viewed as a threat, as an walking stereotype and example of a group instead of a person. It is depersonalization through means of obliterating personal identity.  

That ace people are “unknown” isn’t invisibility on its own, however, enforcement of invisibility requires certain things. It requires the denial of examples of systematic ill-treatment. It requires the silencing of attempts of the group to organize, to create language to describe their own experiences, to accept their experiences as having happened or valid examples of prejudice against them. To enforce invisibility is ultimately about silencing. So examples of invisibility will mostly be focused around attempts to deny the reality of or redefine the reality of the groups in question.  Truscum rhetoric is based around enforced invisibility as an example. 

Proving that aces aren’t hypervisible isn’t proof on its own as a lack of oppression(as that’s not what oppression is/means). A lot of groups who are hypervisible define their experiences as the real oppression. And the same can be said of invisible groups. Every ace who has ever typed “well, at least people know what being gay is!” is mistaking hypervisibility for visibility.(visibility here being the state of being seen, acknowledged, understood, and listened to, the default state of the norm.) Most oppressed groups experience both forms of social oppression, but some experience only one or the other. (NBs for example suffer from being invisible, not hypervisible, and gay and lesbian people are for the most part rendered hypervisible not invisible.) But the fact one group is hypervisible and another is invisible does not mean that either group isn’t experiencing oppression.

You need to look at actual stats about the group in question.

This is aimed at everyone in the discourse, please please stop centering Systematic Oppression around legislation and legal rights. That’s not the only way oppression takes places. That’s not even the most common way oppression takes places in 21st century western countries. Branch out and actually talk about oppression and oppression dynamics rationally. Study the oppression of various groups outside of the LGBT+ family if you have to! The (basic) Dynamics of Oppression don’t change, just the target. 

[ewoksnotdiscourse]

Oppression is not a competition. That an individual has worse experiences than you doesn’t mean you are not oppressed. That an individual has better experiences than you doesn’t mean they are not oppressed.

[positive-lesbian-vibes]

So, I get where you are coming from with the whole "monosexual" thing, I really do. I'm a lesbian, but my best friend of quite a few years is bisexual. She's gotten shit from both straight men she liked as well as from lesbian women who say they will never touch a woman who's been with a man. There is a pretty strong prejudice against bi and pan people in the LGBT community. You have to understand that it is real, and there isn't a big community that's accepting. Bi-phobia is a thing

anyone who isn’t bi is capable of biphobia and i’ve never said otherwise. gay men and lesbians are capable of biphobia and i have stated that before and never said otherwise.

the difference is that gay men and lesbians dont have power over bi/pan people in the way that straight people do. you cannot be privileged in the same aspect for which you are oppressed. lesbians and gay men are capable of biphobia but they do not oppress bi/pan people on the basis of sexuality.

[butchious]

new word: privilegiest

the superlative form of privileged, for when someone is so privileged it physically hurts

[stfudiscoinfernoed-archive]

It’s honestly essential to understand how transphobia, biphobia, and homophobia play into and reinforce each other.

Straight people’s biphobia is partially based in homophobia (either disgust or fetishization).

Gay people’s biphobia is partially based in transphobia (“ew, [x genitals]”).

“Gay panic” is often used to justify transmisogynistic violence.

Homophobia, biphobia, and transphobia all perpetuate the idea that LGBT people are deceptive, predatory, and promiscuous. In order to dismantle one, you have to dismantle the others as well.