#parapigeon

[based-atticus]

Paraphilias and paraphilic disorders are not the same thing.

Pedophilia and a pedophilic disorder are not the same thing. Voyeurism and a voyeuristic disorder are not the same thing. So on and so forth.

A common misconception I see (oftentimes from well-meaning individuals) is that paraphilic disorders and paraphilias are one and the same. But in reality, the DSM-V has long made a clear distinction between the two.

According to the DSM-V, a paraphilia is simply an atypical attraction (Though what counts as "atypical" has evolved with time, and attractions that were considered atypical in the past are actually quite common and socially accepted today. Take mazophilia -the attraction to breasts- as an example). Paraphilias in themselves are not classified as disorders, and not everyone that has a paraphilia is considered disordered.

A paraphilic disorder is a diagnosable condition in which one's experience as a paraphile causes personal distress/dysfunction in one's life, or results in the harm/risk of harm to another being. Someone with a paraphilic disorder may need some extra help in order to relieve this distress or prevent any harm from being done to others. Now this doesn't mean that people with paraphilic disorders are less deserving of kindness, compassion, and autonomy. They deserve the same respect and common decency as anyone else does. But the difference is clear: a paraphilia is simply an atypical attraction. A paraphilic disorder is an atypical attraction that causes personal distress or harm to others.

Some important things to note here:

Paraphilic disorders are treatable. Paraphilias often aren't.

A paraphilia is needed to have a paraphilic disorder, but paraphilic disorders are not a qualification to have a paraphilia

No, "icky" paraphilias such as pedophilia and necrophilia are not inherently disorders either. They must meet the already specified qualifications to be considered paraphilic disorders

Neither category automatically make someone more dangerous to be around than anyone else. Neither should be stigmatized and we should work to have more open and judgement-free discussions about these topics. Encouraging shame and self-hatred harms more than it helps

The distinction matters to me because I myself am a paraphile. A zoophile, to be exact. I am not distressed or impaired by my attractions, and I have never acted on my desires/hurt another being. My attractions are simply a piece of me that I live with. Being a zoophile is not debilitating to me like how zoophilic disorder is debilitating to many others I know. I don't have the same needs as those who have paraphilic disorders. And it frustrates me to have people describe my experience in ways that don't feel accurate to what I go through, or try to prescribe solutions to problems I don't have. It frustrates me even more when people so boldly proclaim that I'm a bad person for not attempting to cure a disorder I don't have, for daring to be comfortable with being a paraphile rather than self-loathing.

Many a time have I encountered ableist individuals who tell me I'm a bad person for not fitting the image of the poor, self-hating paraphile they can take pity on and feel superior to. Even if I did have a zoophilic disorder, having to walk on eggshells to meet their standard of a "good paraphile" to spare myself from being attacked and outcast would just be detrimental to my hypothetical condition.

The reality is that my zoophilia is not a disorder. It's just something I live with. It's a piece of me that has very little impact on how I live my life. And I'm tired of people trying to make my experiences and my needs into things that they're not. I would really appreciate it if people actually listened to individual paraphiles and what they experience/need rather than prescribing their needs and experiences for them.

Paraphilias in themselves are not inherently disordered or in need of treatment. If you'd like to read more about this subject in a more coherent, less rambly way, I highly recommend this article here

Thank you

(EDIT 7/3/24: Given that this has gotten so much attention and for my peace of mind I wanted to add to this that while I don't believe anyone should take the word of the DSM-V as law given that it's a decade-old book that's part of an ever-evolving series and a flawed premise, if we ARE going to have a discussion about what's considered disordered and what's not in our current society, it's quite literally the manual for that discussion, which is the reason I'm using it as a reference here. But aside from that, please know I do not want to give the impression that I believe the DSM-V 's words are law.)

[based-atticus]

I noticed in your carrd, you mentioned you were out to a few IRL people? And I'm curious how that went with each of them if you're open to sharing. Not a zo0 as far as I'm aware (clarifying mostly for my own mental state because I sometimes get my curiosities and what that means for what I am mixed up and it bothers me a lot) but I like learning about different things and hearing experiences and learning.

Hello there, and my apologies for getting to this so late! I'd love to share my experiences! :D Head's up in advance for my expressive language here. I'm a passionate writer, and find that if I don't express myself with flowery language and overly descriptive paragraphs then I'm not getting my point across properly, lol. If that kind of stuff gives you a headache then my apologies in advance. Anyways on to the story!

I'm out as a zoo to three people in my life: My former therapist (I say former only because I grew out of her services when I turned 18), my ex-partner/best friend, and my mother. The first one I told was my therapist. Before her, I'd planned on taking this piece of myself to the grave. At the time I was convinced my life would be ruined if anything ever got out (And I still do worry about this), so I'd pretty much had my mind set on never telling anyone except internet strangers behind an alias.

But after spending some time in an anti-contact pro-para discord server and seeing how positive of an impact therapy had on them, I got a spark of courage to talk to my own therapist about me being a zoophile. I was 16, and I was seeing said therapist virtually, so in order to prevent family from accidentally listening in I took my phone to the car to speak to her. I was riddled with nerves, and at several points I nearly gave up telling her entirely, but she seemed genuinely interested in what I had to say, so I swallowed my fear and pushed on. I think at that point, I was just tired of having this baggage in my life. I was tired of being scared that I may let something slip. I was tired of feeling like no matter what I did, no matter what I accomplished in life, there would always be this piece of myself that could be used to hurt me. And I think at the time, confiding in a therapist felt like a way to get rid of this deadweight that had been crushing my back for all this time.

I started out by asking her how qualified she felt in delving into the subject of paraphilias. I don't remember her exact answer now, but I remember feeling as though her answer was satisfactory, and that she wasn't a danger to my wellbeing. So I opened up a bit more and told her that I consider myself to be a paraphile. I didn't specify what I was attracted to at first, but I did tell her it was one of the more "taboo" ones. As the session went on, I went deeper into my struggles, and she continued to hold an understanding, albeit curious demeanor, I grew less and less nervous. Towards the end of the session I finally confessed that I was a zoophile. Despite this, her calm demeanor never changed, which was a huge relief.

After hearing of my struggles she immediately started recommending ways of expressing this side of myself, like "Well have you heard of furry? Do you think that would work for you?" "When you're older there are also more adult things you can try with a human partner if you'd like, like role-play!" and more. I thought her recommending the furry community was hilarious at the time, but I still appreciated her willingness to help. It was just cathartic to actually hear someone speak so nicely to me about this subject for once, to hear someone who actually seemed to want to help. I was lucky to end up with a therapist that actually cared about my needs and wellbeing, and from that point on she became a crucial figure in my journey of self-acceptance. She was helpful to me in a lot of aspects in my life, not just zoophilia, and admittedly I've had trouble wanting to find another therapist again. After her, I don't think I could ever have a therapist that wasn't as invested in my journey as she was. And I definitely know that if they weren't willing to speak to me as a zoophile, I simply couldn't tolerate that. Call it a personal "Therapist litmus test" if you will.

The second person to find out was my ex-partner, whom I still consider to be my best friend. We'll call him Joe to make things easier. I'm not exactly sure on the precise details of how, but Joe actually knew I was a zoo long before I formally told him. Apparently there had been signs, some things I'd said.

The killer was when I was around 14 or so I'd started reaching out to the internet for help- ie. I wanted to know a way to "cure" my zoophilia. One of the places I asked was reddit of all places. And at the time I was NOT very internet savvy, as I technically wasn't allowed internet access till I was 16 and I'd been sneaking onto it without much knowledge of how it worked. In short: I didn't realize you could put someone's username into google to look up their posts. At some point during this time, he got a glimpse of the account handle I'd been using to look for said help, and when I hastily told him to leave it be, he looked it up anyways out of curiosity and found the posts I'd made. And despite the content there exposing me as a zoophile, he never said a thing about it.

So fast forward to about three years later, and I'm ranting to him (over text) about my issues with my family. At some point, I started going off about how there was something "abnormal" with me, something so taboo that if my parents ever knew they'd disown me. I'd been talking about me being a zoophile of course. And he made a comment along the lines of, "Yeah, I think I know what this 'Taboo thing' is". Which made my blood go cold the second I read it. While I do love Joe, at the time I couldn't trust that he would be cool with me being a zoophile. I've seen some of the sweetest people become downright bloodthirsty over the subject, and with my therapist I figured I just got lucky. I didn't want to risk losing someone who I cherished so deeply over something that was so ingrained in my very being. So when he said that simple little sentence, my stomach churned. I didn't ask him about it initially, but I spent the rest of the day obsessing over that single passing phrase, wondering what he meant by it and if he actually knew what I'd meant by "Taboo thing".

Eventually, the anxiety made me so sick to my stomach that I called him in the dead of night and straight up asked him "Hey, when you said you knew about my 'Taboo thing' what did you mean by that?". He then proceeded to tell me about an old reddit post he discovered that I'd written about my attraction to canines. The immense cringe of him of all people seeing that post made by a desperate 14 year old me was enough to make me die inside, but the fact that my fears had been confirmed completely overwhelmed me. I started to cry, which shocked him because I'd never cried in front of him in the decade we'd known each other. Hell even my own family struggles to get a tear out of me, which just went to show how much I was freaking out. I exclaimed, "Why didn't you say anything?!". And he replied "I dunno, I didn't really think it was that big of a deal."

Frantically I asked, "You haven't told anyone, have you?" "No, I wouldn't do something like that". "Well...do you have any questions about anything?" "No, not really." "And you don't see any problem with dating someone who's into dogs??" (We were still in a relationship at this point in time). "I don't see why I should. I still love you the same. You're the same person and I know you're not actually gonna do anything to any dogs. If you ever want to talk to me about it I'm here, but other than that this doesn't change anything. Like, unless you were to go around killing people I don't think there's anything you could do that would make me love you any less".

From that point on he was more in awe with the fact that I was crying than the fact that I just admitted to being a zoophile. Even after we broke up, he never used my zoophilia against me. As far as I know, he's kept my secret all this time. We don't really talk about it, although occasionally he tries to make friendly jokes about me being into dogs and I pretend to ignore it. Mostly because it's still awkward for me to talk about casually in real life. We're still on good terms, and even if I'm still shocked by his nonchalance, I'll forever be grateful for his acceptance. He's an odd duck for sure, but I am too, so I guess that's how we've managed to remain so close for so long, lol

The last person I told was my mother. As of right now, she's kind of the last person I ever plan on telling. It came up in the midst of a nasty argument. Just for some background info: My parents have always been authoritarian type. I don't hate them for it, but it was difficult. I was 17 and finally starting to break after 17 years of dealing with their shit, so one day I snapped, really let them have a piece of my mind. I was so enraged at the time that I don't really remember everything I'd said, but at some point something came up that was along the lines of them disowning me if they knew how "fucked up" I was, and how I wished I had parents I could trust to love me even if I didn't fit in to the norm. This got them confused. Aside from mental health issues, I'm practically their golden child. Perfect grades, never gotten in trouble with the law, a good obedient poster child they can flaunt to all their buddies. They questioned me on this, and I told them it'd be better to drop it, but they refused to. They pushed and pushed, and even though I was ready to throw everything away to give them a piece of my mind, the words just wouldn't come out. Eventually my dad spoke "If it's better for me to not be here, you can tell your mother about it". Which I agreed to, as while I do have my qualms with my mother, I know she's more open-minded than he is. My father can't even accept the fact that I'm queer, so I could never imagine him accepting me as a zoo.

My mother took me to the backyard, away from his ears, and told me to explain what I'd meant. I didn't really want to, but I figured that if I was already coming out with all my frustrations I may as well let this cat out of the bag too and deal with the consequences later. So after some skirting about the subject, I did. She did take a sharp breath when the word "Zoophile" came out of my mouth. And of course she had questions like "How long have you known?" ( Since puberty) and "Are you attracted to our pets?"(No) and "Does anyone else know?" (Joe and my therapist). But after I answered her questions, explained to her what being an anti-contact zoophile means, and she gave it some thought, she finally said, "Atticus, you don't have to worry about me disowning you or kicking you out or anything...Human sexuality is weird. Everyone has their kinks. Just as long as you know you can't act on those feelings, I'm not gonna make a big deal out of this. And yeah, definitely don't tell your father.".

While it was (and still is) clear that she's not exactly well-researched on the subject, hearing her reassure me that I was safe, that my life wasn't going to fall apart, was highly cathartic. And while our relationship is still rocky, I feel as though sharing this part of myself with her gave me a lot of insight into her as a person, which made me have a little more respect for her. In short, things have gotten better with her. It's like there was this wall with us before to where I refused to let her in out of fear that I would lose my livelihood, and while that wall is still there, it's a more transparent wall.

She's continued to be a beacon of support in rough times regarding paraphilias. Hell, there was a time just recently were I had some qualms with a human sexuality class of mine and its treatment of the topic of pedophilia, and she agreed with me that the way my classmates spoke of pedophiles was atrocious. While I wouldn't exactly tell her about this account or this community at all, I know that if I ever needed to rant about anything regarding the subject of my zoophilia, she's someone I can talk to about it, if just on a surface level.

To sum all of this up, I'm lucky to be surrounded by kind, understanding people. Granted, I don't want this to be seen as an endorsement of just coming out recklessly. There are some people I just will not tell. My father is one of them. Another is a "friend" of mine who got genuinely mad at me for making a joke about finding lamias attractive because "That's zoophilia and zoophiles are degenerates who deserve to die". Those are people who have clearly indicated to me from past responses that they're not people I'll be sharing this with. And I think that's ultimately for the best, for my safety if nothing else.

I'm privileged to be able to talk to others freely about this in my life. But not everyone is. And I think it's important to keep in mind that you never truly know how someone's gonna react to this subject until they're directly faced with it. If you ever do plan on telling a loved one: Please test the waters first. Hint at the subject to gauge their reaction. If it's negative: disengage. But if it's positive or neutral there may be hope yet. My best advice is to always exercise caution. Support from loved ones is awesome, but it's not worth bringing harm to yourself. Stay safe :) (Also if anyone has any stories of their own please do share! I'd love to hear them :) )

[based-atticus]

Hey it's the multiple paraphiliac anon again (🗺/objectum). Two questions: 1) are your DMs open? and 2) what all animals are attracted to as a 🐾? (No judgment at all - I'm also a 🐾, attracted mostly to dogs and bears)

Hey there Multi-Para Anon! 1. My DMs are open! However, I will say that I'm terrible when it comes to responding to DMs, so if it takes me a couple days/weeks/months to respond I promise I'm not dead, lol. And for those who do wish to DM me my only request is that there's no venting please! I'm not good when it comes to emotional assistance and I would much rather you go to someone who is good with that :) 2. Oooh, I'm not attracted to bears but I can totally see why you would be! What I would give to hug a grizzly bear, lol My primary attraction is towards canines. I have a type too, lol. I'm mostly attracted to big, muscular, shorthaired breeds such as the Cane Corso, Bullmastiff, Rottweiler, etc., with a few exceptions like the Akita Inu and Great Dane. Surprisingly, most zoos I've known have been attracted to Huskies or German Shepards, but they don't really make me feel anything. Which is weird because I'm also attracted to canidae of similar builds like wolves, jackals, and maned wolves. The mysterious workings of my brain I guess, lol. Aside from canines, I'm attracted to a few big cat species (Lions and jaguars to be specific), and my most oddball attraction would be constrictor snakes (Specifically boa constrictors, ball pythons, and anacondas), as they're the only non-mammal I'm attracted to. As you can probably tell, I'm not really attracted to smaller animals. I think they're cute, but they don't light any sparks, lol. To sum it up I'd say I'm attracted to animals that could eat me alive with little to no effort, lmao

(And disclaimer for any newbies reading this post: I am against any sexual abuse/exploitation of animals. Just because I am attracted to them doesn't mean I am gonna go out and act on said attraction, nor do I want to.) Hope that helped! :D

[based-atticus]

So, question about you being pro-fiction - Can I get your take on it, specifically about why those works should be public?

- an enlightened, possibly no longer anti

I'm honestly very mentally drained at the moment, but I will try to sum up my take to the best of my ability (Albeit sloppily). For me, as long as everything is tagged properly "taboo" fiction should have the right to exist in a public space for others to connect to and enjoy. I'm very anti-censorship in general, as history has shown censorship seldom leads to any good outcomes. But aside from that, I don't think it's anyone's place to judge whether a work of fiction is deserving of existence or not if it's not causing harm. Different people create and consume a variety of taboo things for a variety of reasons. And artwork will have a variety of impacts depending on who is consuming it. There are some people who watch the goriest of horror movies as a way to ease anxiety. Some people might read fanfiction with drastic age gaps as a way to safely explore a taboo in society they're curious about that they would never want to explore in the real world. Some people may create shocking, controversial fictional works as a way to express a past trauma or attempt to speak out on an issue involving the human condition (See Beth Cavener's works for example). And for other people it's just for fun. For myself, I've found that artwork that's considered more "taboo" is cathartic for me. The best example I can think of off the top of my head is the manga MADK, by Ryo Suzuri. By real-life standards it's problematic and horrific in every respect, from endless gore to an age gap between a high schooler and a demon, but it holds a dear place in my heart as a paraphile learning to navigate a world that seems unwilling to harbor me. And I sure haven't gone out trying to eat people as a result of reading all three volumes, lol. Whatever the case, any reason is a valid one. It's nobody else's place to decide what deserves to be created and consumed if there is no actual harm being done. People that fall outside the norm, who do enjoy these more taboo subjects in the realm of fiction deserve to have it be easily accessible just as anyone else does, for whatever reason they choose. Our minds are vast and our imaginations are limitless. In limiting the expression of said imaginations you limit something fundamental to many of us. If it's not for you, that's perfectly okay! Filter out the things you don't like and enjoy whatever you do. You deserve to have a pleasant experience with fiction too. But just because some people can't handle more controversial art doesn't mean the people who can should be stripped of it or be made to hide it when there's nothing to be ashamed of. We should all decide what's best for our own comfort and curate our experience from there. And going back to the idea of censorship, I think it's in our society's best interest to push back against those who seek to censor the works of others simply because they deem it "degenerate". Because it never just stops at the fiction you don't like. You get rid of one subcategory of art and where do you think that vitriol will go next? Do you think people who are willing to burn books or harass artists into suicide will just stop once that first goalpost is reached?

[based-atticus]

Hey, I saw that you had a few support groups of likeminded people. I was wondering if you could offer any for me. i’ve kinda desperately been trying to find people who are likeminded but anti-abuse

Hello there and my apologies for getting to this so late! Unfortunately since starting college, moving out, having my mental health decline, and generally just doing adulting, I haven't been as active in my pro-para circles as I used to. Many of them have changed by now and I can't guarantee they're even still active or as great as they were when I was active. The best one I can personally recommend is the PARAdise discord server, but I've seen your account in my twitter feed every now and then and I've seen that you already know about the server :/

I wish I could be of more help to you, but I think someone who's more active in the community would have a better idea (If anyone knows of any spaces please don't hesitate to make them known on this post!). I appreciate you coming to me though, and I wish you the best of luck on your journey! :)

[based-atticus]

Are a radqueer? Or you just reblog their posts?

I don't consider myself radqueer, no. I'm not involved in the community nor do I ever intend to be. However, I don't really judge anyone off of the label alone. I've encountered radqueers who are abusive, repulsive beings. At the same time, I've had friends who label themselves as radqueers but are really chill beings who are vehemently against any kind of abuse. And on the other hand, I've met several non-radqueers who are probably some of the most vile beings I've ever met. I've come to learn that it's a broad label that can mean a variety of things depending on the person, so I tend to look past the label and instead judge on other stated beliefs or actions. So if you see me reblog from someone labeled as a radqueer, it's likely I either wasn't paying attention to who I was reblogging, or I saw that they labeled themselves as a radqueer but didn't see any problems with their beliefs/actions. If I ever do start interacting frequently with someone harmful, however, please do not be afraid to inform me. I'm not perfect and I have messed up in my judgement of others before :)

[based-atticus]

I don't have any very stigmatised paras like big 3 (only objectophilia + fictophilia +autophilia / orientation terms meaning similar) but your long post about paraphilias is very informative.. I used to be the type of person who tried to get anti-para ppl to listen to me by only mentioning ppl w paraphilic disorders meeting the distress criteria as why we should accept paraphilias (because I thought they would not react well to 'has a paraphilia but no impairing distress over it') but realised that a distinction between paraphilic disorder and paraphilias that aren't disordered is necessary to talk about. And that trying to make supporting paraphiles play into antis' respectability politics just hurts people and doesn't even have any effect on how many antis view paraphilias. And your post helped in that realisation and Im glad that you're spreading awareness about paraphilias and having an accepting space for paraphiles !!

Hello there! I'm glad my lil rant post was helpful to you Anon! Truth be told, I was not expecting it to reach as far as it has, lol. I originally made it out of frustration after witnessing several other paras make the claim that paraphilias are disorders and that all paras need to be in therapy, and it just bothered me so much that I ended up making that post, lol. A part of me is embarrassed that that's the one post of mine that got any significant attention, bc I feel there's so much I could have refined and added upon. A big worry of mine is that I'll fail to express myself fully to whoever I'm communicating with. But seeing messages like yours, I start to think maybe I got my point across just fine :)

[based-atticus]

If you dont mind me asking how and when does a familial relationship cause incest to become harmful? (Under the assumption ages are appropriate) because I know of ppl who are found family with people their age but flirt with them. Is this solely about like actually considering it familial/being raised together or raising someone like adoption or biological relation? Im personally not someone with incestophilia but Im having trouble understanding what is the basis of incest being inherently unethical and harmful because everyone seems to just say 'its harmful/gross' with no elaboration or a vague 'its taking advantage of the familial relationship'(which I feel could literally be said about any relationship type) and I dont agree w the 'pro consang' people as of now but dont fully understand why ppl say incest is inherently harmful and feel like Im anti consang only bc of societal ideals sorry?

TW// Consang discussion, CSA Mention

I'm going to be super honest here and say that I've had this conversation with like five different people in the span of a couple of months, and each and every time it was incredibly draining. Not that you could have known that, Anon, this is just for everyone else who may be reading this to know. This really isn't a debate I enjoy having, much less so on a regular basis. So after this, I would really appreciate if people stopped sending me asks in relation to consang please. I'm most likely either going to delete any other asks about consang/incest I receive after this, or link them to this post. But for now, I'm using this as an opportunity to get my final thoughts out so hopefully people leave me alone about this

Now that that's out of the way, here's my answer: When I talk about family dynamics in relation to consang I'm talking about a family that follows the average modern family structure (ie. you grow up together, you forge bonds that are different to those forged with friends/lovers, these people raise you, etc.). So when I speak on "family dynamics", I'm not speaking on found family, I'm speaking about a relationship in which people are brought up together (not by choice) in the legally and socially binding contract we call "family". If you make a friend later on in your life, call them your "family", but then decide to start dating then I don't see that as a problem. I'm also excluding dysfunctional/abusive families from this discussion bc at that point the reason consang is unethical in those cases pretty much speaks for itself (ie. trauma bonding, unresolved familial issues that should probably be worked out before you start a relationship within said toxic family, all ethical concerns about consang aside) The thing about family (using the definition I've given of "family") is that there are a lot of complicated dynamics there to where adding romance to the mix makes things unhealthy at best and straight up unethical at worst. In short: A healthy family dynamic and consang relationships are simply incompatible. With parent-child relationships you have a creature with virtually no rights and their caretaker that makes all their decisions for them. Even when the child becomes an adult, that influence still sticks. With siblings, even if they're the same age, an example of a common dynamic is that of "sibling rivalry", where one or more siblings may experience different complexes (ie. an inferiority complex) in regards to their sibling that muddies things, or differing treatment from their parents may add a whole other batch of dynamics to the mix. And again, the fact that you grow up together and have a variety of experiences together in itself creates some more messy dynamics. Similar thing with cousins and uncles and aunts. These are people you grow up with (oftentimes without a say in the matter), people who raise you and influence the person you become, people whose lives are so deeply intertwined with your own (unless you were to disown them entirely). And when family members get together sexually/romantically, these dynamics and that complicated history are going to inevitably come into play. I don't think I need to explain why there isn't true consent between a parent and their child, but in case anyone may not see why this is a problem: Children depend on everything from their parents in order to survive. The parent decides whether they live or die, how much freedom they're allowed in the household, what they eat, when they sleep, etc. This is the person that raises you and plays a huge role in molding the adult you eventually become. Even when you become an adult, that kind of influence doesn't just go away. By that point you've already been trained to appease them, as when you displease your parents you risk not only losing a survival resource, but a source of security (ie. parental affection). The child in this situation has every incentive to please their parent at the expense of their wellbeing in this hypothetical relationship. And on the parent's side, I find it generally exploitative to raise up someone, knowing they depend on you for survival, knowing that kind of power doesn't just disappear, and then taking advantage of that power dynamic there for sexual/romantic gratification.

Now for sibling/cousin relationships, let's first analyze what a healthy relationship should look like. Usually when you're dating someone, in a healthy relationship both parties can leave at any time, there are no incentives that sway the relationship in negative directions, and there aren't messy dynamics at play that blur the lines between consent and compliance/appeasement. Both parties have nothing there that tethers them to each other (ie. they can have their own separate lives apart from each other), and for both parties, their relationship is a matter between them and them alone. Their respective families have no need to get involved. Take breakups. Breaking up with a non-relative isn't usually a big deal in a healthy relationship. Yes, there's that initial grief, but you eventually move on with your lives and go your separate ways. And so do your respective families. But with relationships between family members you don't go your separate ways without causing damage to the rest of the family. Bc at the end of the day, you're not the only person they have to support in that breakup. Your partner is their family too. And if the breakup is bad enough (bc not all breakups go smoothly, let's be honest here), things get even messier. Yes, you could always suck it up and deal with having to interact with your ex at every family gathering or risk causing the rest of the family to fall into disarray bc they're now having to deal with a piece of the family being split apart. Either way those family dynamics complicate things, and it inevitably affects the lives of others. Unlike with a healthy relationship, a consang relationship is not solely about you/your partner, and your lives are tethered together. And as previously mentioned, consequences such as the ones above give a greater incentive to stay in these relationships if they're not going well. After all, who would want to lose both their family and their lover after a fight or a breakup? And who would want to upset someone that's had such a huge positive impact on their life thus far, that's shaped their personhood and continues to act as a safety net? Who would want to trouble the rest of their family over their bad choices?

It's one thing to have a fight when your relationship is a completely private matter, it's another to have a fight when what is supposed to be a private fight is made an inherent family matter, and inevitably gets innocent family members involved. It's one thing to want to please your partner bc you genuinely care for them and want the best for them. It's entirely another to want to please your partner when there are family dynamics at play that incentivize you to comply to and appease them despite your reservations, lest you disrupt the rest of the family, lose a family member on top of a partner, etc. The concept of "family" means something in our minds whether we like it or not, otherwise we wouldn't have mechanisms in our minds that cause most of us to feel averse to the idea of incest. Even if someone were to get into these relationships with a family member as a fully grown adult, there will always be that concept of "family" residing in the back of their minds, along with all the dynamics involved that make it so they're not only more incentivized to please and tolerate their partner in the face of mistreatment, but that make it so that genuine consent is extremely shaky in many cases. Could there be exceptions? Of course. I imagine there have been people in the past involved in consang relationships that are sustainable long-term, don't experience any of the dynamics listed about, and don't disrupt the rest of the family with their relationship. But generally speaking, the exceptions do not speak for the rule. We don't tell people "Seatbelts are useless, don't use them" just because some people may have survived crashes without them. We don't encourage/enable relationships between children and adults just bc some of those children may not realize or may not believe they've been abused. And likewise, I don't believe it's okay to encourage/enable consang relationships just bc some people may have had positive experiences in those relationships. There are too many factors at play, too many incentives that sway the relationship in unfavorable ways, too many dire consequences that stop the relationship from being a private matter and turn it into a matter that negatively effects the lives of every other family member. If you're an incestophile, the most ethical thing you could do is to not act on those desires. Find healthy outlets/alternatives, but please don't cause a family to fall into disarray.

EDIT: Also, bc I’m already starting to see this: When I say “please don’t ask me about this topic again” that includes debate on this subject as well. This is simply an answer to a question I was asked, not an invitation to have a back and forth. I have no intention of discussing this further, as this is not what I made this blog for. You are free to block me if my beliefs make you uncomfortable, but as far as further discussion goes I’m not keen on it. Especially considering I have many friends/followers that are offput by this subject, and I have no desire to cause them distress from seeing this subject on their TL every five seconds. Thank you.