#poison counters

[magicjudge]

Hi I need help with this.. Toxic mechanic Vs Vorinclex. If 4 toxic 1 creatures attack a player who controls vorinclex v2, would vorinclex see 4 instances of placing 1 poison counter and result in 0 poison counters or would 4 poison counters be placed then halved to 2. A lot of judges are arguing that since damage is dealt at the same time, the counters should be placed as one event then halved. Matt Tabak has sent out an example using winding constrictor which seems to support the latter.

Except for in the case of first strike and double strike, all combat damage is dealt simultaneous.

Toxic is an ability that modifies the effect of combat damage being dealt by also causing the toxic creature's controller to place that many poison counters on the defending player.

So, when we're figuring the effects of combat damage, it's all lumped together and then dealt at once. This means that there's only one set of counters being given to each damaged opponent and as such, Vorinclex and other counter-affecting replacement effects only affect that final number.

This means that in the example you describe, the defending player would end up with two poison counters from the four unblocked Toxic 1 attackers.

(Also, for anyone who's about to bring up lifelink as a counter-example, lifelink only counts as separate instances of gaining life for each creature because there's a rule saying so.)

[strixhaven-star]

I will kick you out of the pod if you run this. Poison counters are getting ridiculous, and this just proves it. You will be banned until you decide to use something else.

[sinister-resonant-bell]

Standard infect by the way

[tlatotem]

"They can't bring back poison counters. It's too powerful!"

Yeah, infect is a solid strategy in Modern and Commander, with people clamoring for new rulings on ten counters not being enough. If they make a new set with poison counters, people would be wary of dying even quicker. So you turn it on its ear. If poison suddenly gets a reward, you play cards that are stronger BECAUSE you have poison counters, infect becomes weaker. You simply have to keep from going over nine poison counters, but building higher TOLERANCE makes your deck stronger. This beats infect back down, while Infect is still powerful against decks without a means of benefiting from poison counters. That's just complicated enough to work!

[magicjudge]

Kind of a follow up to the earlier Lich's Mirror question. How does the game end in a draw? I don't quite understand the ruling here.

If you have another player’s Mirror, the game will try to make you lose because of poison counters, but you’ll do Lich’s Mirror’s effect instead. Then you’ll still have 10 poison counters and Lich’s Mirror and the game will make you try to lose again, but again it’s replaced with Lich’s Mirror’s effect. Rinse and repeat.

The game is in an unbreakable loop and thus ends in a draw.

[magicjudge]

Let's say I control Lich's Mirror and I get 10 poison counters. The mirror triggers and resolves in response to me losing the game. After state based actions are checked, I would still lose the game, correct?

Correct.

Lich’s Mirror doesn’t remove poison counters. Its effect will replace you losing the game once, but you’ll just lose again anyway.

If you somehow control another player’s Lich’s Mirror in this scenario then the game actually ends in a draw since that Mirror doesn’t get shuffled away.

[magicjudge]

So where do level counters/poison counters exist

Level counters exist on creatures with the level up ability.

I assume you mean experience counters, though, not level counters.

Experience counters and poison counters are on players, just like auras with “enchant player” or “enchant opponent”.

Yes, players can have counters and be enchanted.

[magicjudge]

So here's the scenario - you are playing a free for all with two other players that are both using infect decks. If one of them dealt you seven poison counters, then is defeated, do those counters still stay with you?

Yes.

Poison counters go on you and stay there until the game ends (or you remove them with Leeches).