as much as the Quinn the Villain aspects of Shelby's plot suck, I think I almost hate the Puck aspects more? Because to this day, I will see people justifying it like "aw, if he was a little older, they'd be cute". Are you fucking kidding me? It's not even solely that he's a teen and she's a teacher. It's that he's her daughter's peer AND ex-bf. It's that Puck is still stuck in his fantasy of a happy family life from S1, he's just swapped in a different baby mama now. How can people understand how unhinged Quinn is in wanting to "steal" a baby, but not understand that Puck is also in full on delusion thinking he can just get custody of Beth by hooking up with Shelby? He says it straight-out "Beth needs a dad, and who better than her real dad." The whole situation is so messed up, and the show tries to present it like it's sweet and like Shelby/Puck are the "good" parents and Quinn's the only fuck-up here. When essentially Shelby and Puck are basically icing her out and forming a unit apart from her with her daughter, then gaslighting her over being hurt by it.
I also hate the Puck aspects but, as much of a problem I have with some of his stuff and Beth's conception and his treatment of Quinn in particular, I hate it because he's the victim here. People who find him and Shelby in any way cute are messed up because even BEYOND the mess of the Glee polycule she's a full adult and his teacher and he's a KID, 18 or not. I don't give a shit if it's technically legal, if someone has to argue that they already know the relationship is messed up.
And the thing is, Shelby led him on. She let him into her apartment, took advantage of Puck wanting to help out and bond with Beth. Took advantage of his messy family life and complicated feelings around fatherhood, took advantage of Puck thinking he's oh so mature because he'd been with other older women. Shelby used this kid and it's horrifying. And I do feel for Puck here because he's desperate to take this chance and prove he, unlike his own dad, wouldn't be a shitty father and he's so ready to take on all these responsibilities because this full adult narcissist is enabling him in this fantasy.
Like I said, I have complicated feelings about Puck and very negative feelings about Quick's relationship. I think Puck treated her badly repeatedly, including here in season 3A. I think there is truth to the show presenting him and Shelby as the "good" parents which, wow. But yeah I'm just saying that he's also the victim of a borderline sociopathic adult's whims here, like Quinn is. He and Quinn both brought their baggage into meeting Beth and it messed both of them up, while Shelby not only let that play out but poured gasoline on that fire.
So I read your post about Shelby and puck and I agree but looking at peoples comments on other posts it seems that people don’t view it as bad as other incidents because puck was the aggressor and Shelby didn’t give in till she was depressed about beth ( which looking at it puck did seem to take advantage as he always did)
Well there's a lot to unpack there but this is the one instance where I think we could hardly call Puck the aggressor. It was a power imbalance and he wasn't the one with the control. Was he persistent, sure, but that was mostly about Beth and Shelby should have immediately rejected him and told the school.
When it comes to this situation I feel no sympathy for Shelby for giving in and fucking Puck. That was 100% on her and she simply could have just not.
Plus, I'm sure Beth's accident scared her and all but depressed sounds like a strong word for it and she shouldn't have called her 18 year-old student to the hospital, no matter how many times he stressed he'd love to be a father figure and help out and etc. Shelby should have rejected Puck's advances and set boundaries. Just because she's the woman in this scenario doesn't mean she was the adult in the position of power so, for once, this wasn't on Puck.
Suuuper random but what are your thoughts on I'm the only one GCV
We welcome random questions over here.
So like most IKAG songs, I'm very conflicted. The only two tracks on there that I don't feel conflicted about are Jolene (a certified banger) and Girls Just Wanna Have Fun (flop of the century).
As a cover, purely out of any context? Yeah I like it. I think it's a good song covered well, and Puck's style suits it anyway. But do I fundamentally disagree not only with the overall notion behind Lady Music Week, i.e. a bunch of men singing at Santana, but also with Puck covering a lesbian's song? Very much so. Melissa Etheridge should have been covered by Brittana and Brittana only. Come to My Window, anyone?
And then, to add insult to injury as this episode does over and over and over again, the actual context. It's like the Lady Music Week songs to Santana get progressively worse. Perfect is... flawed, in aspects that I've covered ad nauseam on here, but well-intentioned and covered by a queer couple, at least. Girls Just Wanna Have Fun makes me unbelievably mad and that's all we'll say about that atrocity. So I'm The Only One is somewhere in the middle. Offensive, for sure, because the context is Puck not giving a shit about Santana's struggle, singing at his teacher who is the adoptive mother of his bio baby and whom he's slept with. And then there's the throwaway line directed at Santana which makes my skin crawl just as much as the rest of this horrid episode. So Not Great.
I can't lie and say I don't enjoy the cover because I do, but I'd put this GCV on the lower end if I were to rank IKAG songs based on context and all. There's an idea, maybe I should rank the IKAG soundtrack. Anyway, so I can't not consider the episode and the context this is in, and I find the Puck-Shelby storyline and Puck's behaviour here foul. Does that mean I can never pretend to be ignorant of the context and just enjoy this GCV when it comes on shuffle? No, I've definitely done that. I am conflicted though.
The curse of IKAG, really. I loathe it as an episode with everything I am, everything I stand for, but for the most part the soundtrack... slaps. Slaps so hard.
I'm curious what brought this on, if you feel like sharing Anon.
Gah! Same anon as before. I just want to clarify that in no way was I blaming Puck for the relationship with Shelby (summarizing thoughts in asks gets so messy!). I was just trying to express how weird it is that we can recognize the trauma behind Quinn's terrible decisions in S2-3, but a lot of people seem to view Puck as somehow having it together? I mean, he gets arrested, almost fails his senior year, and ends up in a sexual relationship with his baby's adoptive mother, but somehow the show and a lot of the fandom only see Quinn as the traumatized one in this plot, and I've never understood it. The show seems to want me to view Shelby/Puck as some hot, sexy milf storyline where "oh, if only circumstances were different, they could be great", when all I see is a fucked up teenager who sees this as a way to get his child back and a 40-something woman who keeps egging him on by dropping lines about how hard it is being a single parent and "oh gosh, will you please come to the hospital and hold my hand and play act that we're parents together".
So, in summary, Puck is ALSO traumatized by everything related to Beth, but while Quinn is generally villainized over her trauma, Puck's is often presented as him just being a cool badass who likes to fuck. And a not insignificant portion of the audience seems to buy into that fully, which might make his plot in 3A even more frustrating for me than Quinn's.
No worries Anon, thank you for explaining. I wasn't 100% on where you stood with Puck based on the previous ask but that clears it up, all good.
The show's framing is entirely to blame for this. As much as they villanize Quinn, they acknowledge that she's a mess and crying out for help. Puck is portrayed as Shelby's peer and Glee shows no effort to show how messed up that dynamic is and how fucked it is that Shelby actively encourages Puck's belief that he has to be some kind of provider. He's 18!
Sad truth is, viewers are often willing to take what the show says, explicitly or implicitly, at face value. They're being told that Puck is being "mature" here and don't question how messed up that is. It reminds me of people comparing characters' trauma, too, very often with Quinn and Kurt, as if this is the fucking suffering Olympics. Puck is a complicated character and many have complicated feelings about him but there's undoubtedly a story there about a boy with issues. And though I do think Glee treats Puck with a surprising amount of care and put more effort into his story than most of the girls, there's an utter lack of respect when it comes to his relationships with older women. It's always, always a joke. Even when they had this opportunity to explore how messed up it was with Shelby, they still leaned into him being this more mature guy who needs an older woman anyway. Puck is anything but mature and it's whack that the show would explore his feelings of inadequacy but legitimize this fucked up relationship.
Then again, I think the show fumbled the potential of the Puck and Beth storyline when they showed that flashback in 1x22. Quick makes me so uncomfortable and it is the one thing I can't look past when it comes to Puck, and knowing how incredibly dubious Beth's conception was I frankly feel less inclined to care about Puck's complex feelings on his own fatherhood. And I wanna care! He could be such an interesting ch. But as always, the issue is Glee's inability to recognize what story it's telling. And so every time I want the show to explore what Beth and that experience means to Puck I remember that, at best, he pressured Quinn, and at worst Beth is the result of deception and full-on assault. That does make it more complicated. But bottom line is I agree that in terms of the season 3A storyline audiences should recognize that Puck is also a victim at Shelby's hands here. Because she just never stops being the absolute worst.
What are your thoughts on Quicks relationship starting with dubcon and the eventual Beth aftermath? I don’t mean this to offend anyone and can understand why some ppl do ship Quick but I personally see Quinn as a lesbian so I really can’t stomach that they stick her with puck in 100th ep. I feel like they only feel like they’re met to be together because of the whole sharing a child connection but ultimately they’re just better off as friends? This may be very hypothetical but imagining Quinn didn’t get pregnant, then her and puck would’ve just been another pointless glee hookup? Their “endgame” was a sloppy way of trying to pair everyone off as the series drew to a close?
So today's the day we finally talk about Quick.
Content warning for discussions around consent and sexual assault.
I feel as conflicted about Quick as I do about Puck's character for this exact reason. In fact I'm more conflicted when it comes to their relationship, because independent from Quick I can at least pretend this isn't part of Puck's story. My mixed feelings on him almost 100% originate with Beth's conception. With some difficulty but I'm able to separate Puck from his actor (otherwise Glee would be unwatchable for me) so most of his character is okay and even fascinating to me. It's this one thing that is just so Yikes.
For starters, I understand what you mean by calling it dubious consent and I agree that it's an appropriate use of the word, but I'd just like to note how insidious dubcon is as a concept. Think about it, something is either consensual or not. I don't believe there should be space for much of a gray area. But what Glee portrays is a dubious situation, which is why I bring up this insidiousness. I think we should get it out of the way that the core of the issue is that Glee doesn't see the scene this way. They fully wrote, filmed, and aired an incredibly sus scene without considering how it comes across. I've seen this topic be brought up on the Glee subreddit sometimes and this was always an issue, that people couldn't agree on its framing. So I'm going to establish this as we go on, that Glee as a show didn't see much if anything wrong with the scene in terms of consent. And I know I keep saying this in replies and it's annoying, but elaborating on this one aspect is beyond the constraints of this post. So I genuinely am ready to explain why I think Glee's framing is like that but for now I'm gonna run with that interpretation without further ado.
Just because Glee doesn’t see an issue with it doesn’t mean we don’t. And I realize I’m about to explain something you probably already agree on Anon but I wanna be clear when I eventually explain my own feelings on Quick. I forgot about this flashback when I rewatched season 1 so it was quite the slap in the face to see it unfold in 1x22. Even though I dislike the word dubcon I really can’t describe the situation as anything other than dubious . at best, that is. At worst... I mean, it’s sexual assault. How else would we phrase it? Can’t believe myself but I just rewatched it to be sure I was talking about it accurately. Quinn says “I can’t do this” and comes up with two different reasons not to have sex - even though, you know, she doesn’t actually need a reason. The two main issues, however, are that a) he offers her another wine cooler as an attempt to cool her nerves. As a response to her essentially saying ‘no’. Yikes. And b), perhaps even more crucially, Puck lies to Quinn about protection. We don’t know what goes down exactly but he says “trust me” and the rest is history. Now, whether what Puck does is stealthing or not, it’s an act of sexual aggression. Quinn only consents, reluctantly at that, to having protected sex so even that already dubious consent she’s giving is essentially being taken away.
Like I said, Glee doesn’t see the issue here and we’re just gonna take it for granted they don’t, but that doesn’t mean we can’t. And I certainly have an issue with it and it sours my perception of the couple in general. I fully believe Puck was in love with Quinn in season 1, even if he was still a jerk to her. I think Quinn saw something in him even before they had sex, which is why they got there in the first place. But I also think that, if anything, Beth is the reason why they shouldn’t be together. Without Quinn getting pregnant they might have had a shot at a normal-ish dynamic and relationship but because everything is founded on that night of what is essentially a betrayal and because this bond is forced upon them, I don’t believe they could ever have a balanced, healthy romantic relationship.
It’s ironic to think of them this way. But I stand by it, Beth is the reason they shouldn’t happen. Season 3 demonstrates that they do have a strong bond because of her and I even think that could develop into a solid relationship - platonic, that is. Because season 3 shows, to me, that the baggage is too much for them to work. Quinn turns into the Joker, Puck is a gigantic asshole to her while he’s screwing Shelby. They have the potential to help each other because season 5 is right, in a way. They really do know each other well and see each other more than others do, but they also enable a lot of each other’s worst tendencies as a romantic pair. And because Beth was born and her conception was the way it is, there’s just something fundamentally broken about the idea of them as a couple. I don’t want to take their bond away from them because I believe they can learn and grow from it, but getting back together after high school feels so much like they settled.
And this brings us to 100. I wanna see the beauty in their narrative because I think the idea is there, the writers just forget how they actually wrote them in seasons 1-3. What Puck says about them is true but it feels like they’re both settling. They buy the thought that no one else in this world could possibly understand what they went through, no one except each other. But that’s no reason to be with someone. And again, if they were allowed a “normal” love story, maybe they could have worked. But they weren’t and they shouldn’t be together just because they’re afraid no one else will ever get it. That’s how it comes across to me anyway. And there’s a tragedy in that, as opposed to the epic love Glee tries to portray it as. They do share a connection but because this is Glee, they cannot possibly fathom that not being a romantic one. And like you say, Glee just wanted to pair the spares and Quick were obvious ones. That doesn’t mean they should have been paired together.
Basically a TL;DR is that I agree with what you say and would remove those question marks haha. Even if I don’t see Quinn as a lesbian, which idk if I do I couldn’t get into that here. But even if I see her as being attracted to men, it shouldn’t be Puck because it feels like settling and I don’t believe they could ever live in a healthy relationship. Shame, because their 100 story could have been kinda beautiful if the writers had done what they thought they did.
Thoughts on lesbros Santana and puck? Fanon writes their friendship quite well.
I've talked a bit about them before but I'm always a sucker for a Santana broship!
I think, like so often when it comes to Puck, we have to ignore certain things in canon or pretend he got proper development off-screen. The conflict of his character is that he does have one of the most solid arcs but his worse moments can... leave a mark. Even if I just look at his relationship with Santana (which is topical because I've been looking into it very deeply for a post lol), some of what he says and does is just yikes. Case in point is the way they break things off for good in season 2 and, of course, the atrocity that is IKAG. Both his song, sang to Shelby instead of supporting Santana and the kinda gross thing he says after. Ngl, some real-life things also at times sour my perception of a Pucktana broship, namely his actor being a notorious shithead to Naya, yelling on set, all that. It's no coincidence they rarely if ever interacted post-Silly Love Songs. I'm not holding that against Puck the character but I can't help it when it influences how I view a Pucktana friendship.
All that to say, I think certain... adjustments need to be made to their canon stuff and certainly a lot of imagination to make a lesbro dynamic work. But I do love the idea because I'm a sucker for any Santana friendship and I think there's real potential here. Most notably, Puck and Santana are actually pretty big parallels in the first two seasons, their more infamous image a contrast to the popular kid golden couple Quinn and Finn. Both Puck and Santana suffer from others having such low opinions of them and fall into a vicious cycle. I touch on it a bit in the post linked above and explore Santana's side of things here, also mentioning Puck. They're a bad girl/bad boy duo using their sexuality as a kind of social currency, but both are unhappy with how they're being judged and aren't sure how to escape that cycle.
Season 3 could have made great use of this if it was, you know, good. Post-coming out Santana is exploring a new side of herself but being out doesn't mean she doesn't struggle and is only just figuring out who she is, and Puck doubts himself so much as he's on the verge of failing and not getting to graduate. It would have been cool if Glee acknowledged even once how they're both held back by people's worst expectations of them and maybe even helped each other.
A better version of Puck who I don't believe we quite got to see could have been an excellent lesbro who makes some stupid comments but it comes from a place of love. He would scare homophobic jerks away and I like the idea that he grows protective of Santana post-outing because he does kinda view her as his bro. I also think there'd be no pretending with them, no hiding insecurities because they know each other well and now don't have to fall into the unhealthy romantic, but more like purely sexual dynamic they had in the past. Basically if they both learn to see each other for real there's so much there to explore. They could curb each other's tendency to inadvertently live up to those worst expectations and call each other out. I can totally see Santana setting Puck right and telling him not to wallow in self-pity, but Puck also doesn't tolerate when Santana crosses into actual huge bitch territory where she self-sabotages.
I think I ranked Santana's lesbros once and Puck was on thin ice but that really is just because I think he could go either way, and canon did nothing with them once they were no longer hooking up. The version of Puck I quite like as a character would make for a top-tier lesbro and they'd make for a chaotic duo.
The writers missed out in season 3 not having Puck as Santana's lesbro. She could have helped him with season 3 craziness too. It could have been a great call back to season one.
Chalk it up as yet another thing the writers missed out on in season 3, along with being good.
In a different world, Pucktana could have been great bros. I think they both occupied such a unique place with their reputations and how others perceived them so Santana would have been the perfect person to reflect on Puck feeling like a failure at the end of season 3. And dare I say can you imagine a world where IKAG isn't IKAG and Puck doesn't sing a song about fucking his teacher, and instead genuinely does have that moment of "oh, okay that makes sense and I support you"?
Pucktana isn't the friendship I mourn the most because real-life things also contributed to their dynamic being dropped completely but can't lie, they're such fun thematic parallels to me.
