#rouka queue

[agentrouka-blog]

do you think jeyne poole will live? like a long and peaceful(or will try) life or?

Oh yes, absolutely.

GRRM used her character for plot reasons, and to make a big terrible point about hypocrisy and classist disregard in a big number of people. But he won't end it there.

From Jaime Lannister to the collective Northern nobility, no one would bother raising a hand to protect Jeyne Poole for her own sake. It's inconvenient. It would raise a fuss no one can bother to deal with. Only Theon comes to care for her as a person. Only Sansa remembers her friend.

Jeyne is only barely a step above the peasant girls Ramsay hunts for sport. He names his dogs after them, several are called Jeyne.

Even after she escapes with Theon's help, she must remain "Arya".

Jeyne Poole had wept all the way from Winterfell to here, wept until her face was purple as a beetroot and the tears had frozen on her cheeks, and all because he told her that she must be Arya, or else the wolves might send them back. "They trained you in a brothel," he reminded her, whispering in her ear so the others would not hear. "Jeyne is the next thing to a whore, you must go on being Arya." He meant no hurt to her. It was for her own good, and his. She has to remember her name. When the tip of her nose turned black from frostbite, and the one of the riders from the Night's Watch told her she might lose a piece of it, Jeyne had wept over that as well. "No one will care what Arya looks like, so long as she is heir to Winterfell," he assured her. "A hundred men will want to marry her. A thousand." (TWOW, Theon)

But names are important, even if they aren't convenient.

And suddenly there came a wild thumping, as the maester's ravens hopped and flapped inside their cages, their black feathers flying as they beat against the bars with loud and raucous caws. "The tree," one squawked, "the tree, the tree," whilst the second screamed only, "Theon, Theon, Theon." Theon Greyjoy smiled. They know my name, he thought. (TWOW, Theon)

It's only when he embraces his true identity, in the first chapter that carries his name in ADWD, that Theon can rise to save Jeyne. He is filled with joy at remembering himself, even after all he endured. Even while still pushing Jeyne into the pretense of a different name.

GRRM isn't using mirroring language for nothing. Jeyne will return to herself. Even after all she endured, she will know joy and belonging. There is life after trauma.

AFFC and TWOW contain the first mention of Jeyne Poole from Sansa's end since ACOK.

She had not had a friend to gossip with since poor Jeyne Poole. (AFFC, Alayne II)

For just a little while, as she ran, she forget who she was, and where, and found herself remembering bright cold days at Winterfell, when she would race through Winterfell with her friend Jeyne Poole, with Arya running after them trying to keep up. (TWOW, Alayne I)

The mentions tie her to friendship and to Sansa's own true identity.

GRRM isn't building that up for nothing, and the theme of identity and friendship, the mirror to Theon suggests a reunion that will validate Jeyne as a person worth of consideration for her own sake.

And that's where the idea of justice will come in. Jeyne is the perfect crown witness against Littlefinger, who is complicit in the plot of false identity to tamper with legitimacy of Northern rulership and the rights to Winterfell. He's a collaborator with not just the Lannister regime but House Bolton. There's barely any proof for his crimes, and none that Sansa can safely divulge, but this is a proper witness account for a trial.

Just like it's extremely likely that the dogs, with their various Jeynes, will be involved in the demise of Ramsay (though not the way the show did it) in order to give justice to the peasant girls he murdered, it's likely that Jeyne Poole will have a hand in creating justice against Littlefinger, one of the architects of her misery. And with the protection and regard of Sansa (and Arya), it will be made clear that even a person of lower rank like Jeyne Poole has a voice and importance.

And then she will go on and live her life.

[agentrouka-blog]

From The Soiled Knight, AFFC:

“He left you to rule in Sunspear when he took himself off to his Water Gardens, did he not?"

“To rule? No. He left his cousin Ser Manfrey as castellan, old blind Ricasso as seneschal, his bailiffs to collect duties and taxes for his treasurer Alyse Ladybright to count, his shariffs to police the shadow city, his justiciars to sit in judgment, and Maester Myles to deal with any letters not requiring the prince's own attention. Above them all he placed the Red Viper. My charge was feasts and frolics, and the entertainment of distinguished guests. Oberyn would visit the Water Gardens twice a fortnight. Me, he summoned twice a year. I am not the heir my father wants, he has made that plain. Our laws constrain him, but he would sooner have my brother follow him, I know it."

From Tyrion VIII, ASOS:

“He had another cup of wine as he dressed, then took his wife by the arm and escorted her from the Kitchen Keep to join the river of silk, satin, and velvet flowing toward the throne room. Some guests had gone inside to find their places on the benches. Others were milling in front of the doors, enjoying the unseasonable warmth of the afternoon. Tyrion led Sansa around the yard, to perform the necessary courtesies.

She is good at this, he thought, as he watched her tell Lord Gyles that his cough was sounding better, compliment Elinor Tyrell on her gown, and question Jalabhar Xho about wedding customs in the Summer Isles. His cousin Ser Lancel had been brought down by Ser Kevan, the first time he'd left his sickbed since the battle. He looks ghastly. Lancel's hair had turned white and brittle, and he was thin as a stick. Without his father beside him holding him up, he would surely have collapsed. Yet when Sansa praised his valor and said how good it was to see him getting strong again, both Lancel and Ser Kevan beamed. She would have made Joffrey a good queen and a better wife if he'd had the sense to love her. He wondered if his nephew was capable of loving anyone.”

And (one more, sorry) from Alayne I, TWOW:

The feast proved to be everything her father promised.

Sixty-four dishes were served, in honor of the sixty-four competitors who had come so far to contest for silver wings before their lord. From the rivers and the lakes came pike and trout and salmon, from the seas crabs and cod and herring. Ducks there were, and capons, peacocks in their plumage and swans in almond milk. Suckling pigs were served up crackling with apples in their mouths, and three huge aurochs were roasted whole above firepits in the castle yard, since they were too big to get through the kitchen doors. Loaves of hot bread filled the trestle tables in Lord Nestor's hall, and massive wheels of cheese were brought up from the vaults. The butter was fresh-churned, and there were leeks and carrots, roasted onions, beets, turnips, parsnips. And best of all, Lord Nestor's cooks prepared a splendid subtlety, a lemon cake in the shape of the Giant's Lance, twelve feet tall and adorned with an Eyrie made of sugar.

For me, Alayne thought, as they wheeled it out. Sweetrobin loved lemon cakes too, but only after she told him that they were her favorites. The cake had required every lemon in the Vale, but Petyr had promised that he would send to Dorne for more.

My question is: Is this not the way to rule effectively? Or does this in any way diminish Sansa’s role by implying that she’s only good at appearing like a queen, but not actually good at being one?

And regarding the third extract from The Winds of Winter, I want to ask: was it wise to host a feast when winter is coming, food is quickly becoming scarce, and (though I’m unsure if I’m recalling this correctly) Sansa knew people were starving?

No. This comparison does not imply that Sansa would make a bad queen.

Arianne's consideration of her position and her distrust in her father - and in turn, his distrust in her "nature" and her dedication to duty - are informed by the secret plans he had made for her and the letter he wrote to Quentyn when Arianne was 14 years old.

She started acting out, without explanation to him, and lost some of his trust in her abilities and integrity. He never confided in her, before or after his plans changed. They both lived in different versions of reality where they each thought worse of each other than they should have for nine years and counting.

And Arianne could have taken greater charge of her role. She certainly represented Dorne to all guests. But Doran did place Oberyn atop the hierarchy and Arianne never once complained to him. She stewed in quiet resentment and plotted against him instead. Doran failed to ever adress the situation. Both showed bad leadership!

This is all very interesting in terms of the Dorne plot, but I don't think it makes a lot of sense to try and infer from it whether or not GRRM intends for Sansa to attain queenship in the end, by comparing the limitations placed on Arianne (and her unwillingness to take advantage of her role) as the 23-year-old heir to Dorne, to the opportunities available to a 13-year-old fugitive living under the assumed identity of a 14-year-old bastard daughter.

Sansa is doing impressive things within her means, actually. She effortlessly ran the castle up in the Eyrie and now dreamed up an event that not only creates a psychological bond between her cousin and his vassals who haven't seen him in forever, it will provide him with a set of guards 24/7 that are not explicitly beholden to Littlefinger. Plus, an opportunity for the divided Vale nobility to celebrate a sense of unity and stability before the coming winter, after a literal siege. This is all Not A Bad Thing. Diplomacy and relationships are a big aspect of successful rule. Nor is Sansa's education in the art of rulership finished. GRRM is showing her grow and advance. He showed her leadership instincts in the Red Keep ballroom, in saving Dontos, in protecting Sweetrobin on the mountain, in her determination to stay true to herself. He also shows us where she still has growing to do, like trusting her own judgment, being bolder in making decisions, and in embracing leadership as a duty. We are enjoying a work in progress.

Aside: The Vale has a huge surplus of food. You are not recalling correctly, there is zero starvation in the Vale. One tourney will not actually put a dent in that surplus, and the far greater danger to any future trade in food toward the Riverlands or the North is the fact that Littlefinger has ordered them to hoard it to drive up prices. And no, the Vale won't succumb to scurvy en masse because of one big lemon cake.

[agentrouka-blog]

Mary was 14 when she got pregnant with Jesus (Rhaego = antichrist?)

I didn't know that!

But the Dany = Mary imagery is thick in the books, alongside other biblical or Christian imagery (wandering the deserts, freeing the slaves, three wise visitors from afar, brimstone, fleeing to exile, significant horsemen, etc etc etc), so independent of age, I think that the idea of Dany birthing the prophecied savior is very much meant to invoke that comparison.

And then he turns out to be stillborn and has dragon features, blind and decayed. This is not an adult savior who self-sacrificed, lying in Mary's arms. This is simply a fetus with Targaryen deformities. He was never goling to live. Baby Jesus he is not. Nor any kind of anti-Jesus. Just loss.

So Dany sacrifices life for life (not at the cross, but you know, the Great Shepherd's priestess suffered terribly nonetheless) and brings forth three dragons instead.

I don't think Rhaego is the antichrist, nor the dragons, really. But there's a false messiah ringing through the story arc of mhysa.

[agentrouka-blog]

Okay so... if the Long Night in the show was handled stupidly (which no one can argue with bc wtf was that) then what should have happened?

What should the books do?

Not being shitty btw, I'm not pulling a 'well how would YOU do it' I genuinely want to hear an alternative bc the show was disappointing

I think they veered very very far away from the book scenarios.

I am not saying I know how it will go, but at this point in the books we neither have a Night King figure nor Jon fighting White Walkers. (Sam did that while Jon was on a political undercover mission.) The warging and greenseeing play far larger roles. As do themes of historical grievances, grief and wrath and the futility of war.

The show made the Long Night devoid of meaning. A dude needed to be stabbed by a randomly prophecied Stark daughter? Because some COTF stabbed him first? What?

The history of the conflict and how it relates to House Stark and its origin and powers (warging, direwolf connection, greenseeing, kingship) will have to be central. And more than likely this will reveal something unflattering about House Stark, a debt that needs paying or a crime that needs reparation. And Bran Stark (all those Brandons) is the key to that. The actual key. The boy who clings to vast magical powers because he unjustly lost his mobility, who is abusing those powers to escape his grief. Tell me that this won't be part of a meaningful historical and thematic mirror?

Whatever he is learning now through his time with Bloodraven will enable him to create a lasting peace, probably involving the sacrifice of the magic he clings to, righting a historical wrong in the timeline. Probably at Winterfell, yes, in some carefully calibrated scenario. A meeting of some kind, a form of negotiation, a pact, a trade, a peace. The counterpoint to the murder before the young heart tree and the blood Bran could taste in his mouth.

I also have a theory that we will find out how Bran has been subtly manipulating the timeline to arrange pieces to fit for that purpose throughout the story, up to and including not preventing his own terrible injury. And who can and should bring the Wall down if not a Brandon Stark?

Basically, no big zombie battle massacre, though defending against the wights and white walkers will doubtlessly be necessary in the lead-up. But GRRM will never glorify war and battle like that, nor employ it as carelessly sensational as the show did. Instead, there will be something much more complex and cathartic on an emotional level that centers Bran.

[agentrouka-blog]

“I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons.”

I can’t tell if this is dramatic irony from GRRM and he means to subvert it or it’s a statement that may come to fruition ? Targ restoration seems very unlikely but I look at how “no one will ever marry me for love” and the willowy creature line is so obviously dramatic irony but can the same be said for the Dany line? Lot’s of Dany stans think so and obv think it’ll her and Jon’s child…I do find it funny that they’re the same people who claim that Jon’s willowy creature line isn’t ironic at all and that Sansa’s despair over only being chosen for her claim won’t be subverted at all 💀

I think that context here is a key in explaining why the line is begging to be subverted for Sansa, while acting (at best) as false bait in a broader metaphor of doom for Daenerys.

How would you like to marry your cousin, the Lord Robert?" The thought made Sansa weary. All she knew of Robert Arryn was that he was a little boy, and sickly. It is not me she wants her son to marry, it is my claim. No one will ever marry me for love. But lying came easy to her now. "I . . . can scarcely wait to meet him, my lady. But he is still a child, is he not?" (ASOS, Sansa VI)

For Sansa, the line plays on two things: 1) her disillusionment with an innocent but character-defining dream is already complete in the perfect middle of the series. What an excellent moment to set up an ironic hint where her arc will go from there. 2) Easter egg of an as of yet unknown fact: there is another cousin to whom marriage is going to be on the table. "It would be so sweet to see him once again" she later thinks of that not-yet-cousin, "but of course that could never be." Another never. What could possibly ensue down the line? It's pretty blatantly begging to be subverted.

Dany, meanwhile, is thinking this while in the process of fully embracing her dragon identity in the grasslands at the end of the fifth book (happening almost concurrently with the fourth book, so chronologically between the middle and the end). She is exiting her Mhysa-arc, abandoning the maternal role she took on at the end of ASOS, which had quickly entailed locking up her dragons for killing a little girl.

"Drogon killed a little girl. Her name was … her name …" Dany could not recall the child's name. That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away. "I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons." Aye, the grass said, but you turned against your children. (ADWD, Daenerys X)

Her children being the dragons.

Dany is torn between these idea of motherhood. Mother to the people, mother to dragons, mother to her own children. But, crucially, this chapter ends with a decision. She avoids examining the thought of her "moonblood", she divests herself of her commitment to Meereen, she summons and mounts Drogon, turns him away from Meereen, hunts on dragonback and gorges on the charred flesh of a horse that died screaming, calmly awaiting Jhaqo's khalasar to find her. She chooses the dragons.

The pregnancy she miscarried in the grasslands during her bout of starvation and dysentery was conceived in Meereen. Fairly soon after she started having sex with Daario and Hizdahr, even. Is it miscarried in the process of choosing to leave Meereen.

“To go forward I must go back,” she said.

She has chosen a new direction, back to her dragon identity, her personal quest. Nothing about this invites the idea of an ironic twist on motherhood being her future after all, which always stands in opposition to the dragons. The imagery is utterly consistent on that front.

In order to thematically reconnect to motherhood for herself, she would have to utterly reject the dragons, and that's going to be both extremely unlikely, and also increasingly meaningless the more she already achieves for herself through them. It's not much of a sacrifice if they have already given her power, devotion, armies, vengeance, the path to Westeros and the means to achieve all her goals. If Hazzea is not enough to convince Dany of what matters more, where is the meaning in being given "a little girl" for herself down the line, after yet more little girls will have died? Thematically, the time to earn this reward passed the moment she chose Drogon.

[agentrouka-blog]

What if Elia married Baelor Hightower?

I have no reason to think that Tyrion is wrong in his assessment:

Yes, Tyrion agreed silently. Baelor Hightower was no longer young, but he remained Lord Leyton's heir; wealthy, handsome, and a knight of splendid repute. Baelor Brightsmile, they called him now. Had Elia wed him in place of Rhaegar Targaryen, she might be in Oldtown with her children growing tall around her. (ASOS, Tyrion X)

A much happier Elia, in a city of culture and learning. Not without its challenges, given anti-Dornish sentiment in the Reach, but the honor of wedding a princess and her personal wit and charm might have gone a long way to mending some old wounds there. <3

Hard to picture how things would have proceeded for the Targaryens without Elia, given that she was likely chosen for her Targaryen ancestry, in spite of Aerys's racist contempt, because Steffon was somehow unable to turn up a Valyrian-blooded bride in Volantys. Who would be good enough for the crownprince of a dynasty in dire need of a stable line of succession? They won't have Rhaegar waiting years and years to father an heir, and Aerys has already rejected the daughter of the warden of the West. Catelyn Tully is already betrothed. Lyanna is far too young. Ashara Dayne? Hey, why not Malora Hightower! Something tells me she and Rhaegar would have been a fun match. Mwahahaha. But possibly Targs are superstitious about Hightower brides now.

It's a free for all at that point.

[agentrouka-blog]

fave jonsa quote ? ?

Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow.  (ADWD, Jon XIII)

It's such a romantic image that speaks of Jon's understanding of her as a person, and of him observing her doing this with approval. Plus, it's paired with the significant Ygritte reference, which is a gateway to a whole lot of Sansa and RLJ references, from the Winter Rose story to the preciously hilarious "Would you bed your sister?"

[agentrouka-blog]

When one tries to rebut how Sansa wants Northern independence, would saying that she doesn’t say anything in the books about it or how Robb tried and died justify it?

Why on earth would she not want Northern independence? She is literally the captive of a tyrant king who killed her father and who regularly has her beaten for Robb's actions. If ever there was an appropriate moment for GRRM to slip in Sansa's political opposition to Northern independence it would be in ACOK?

Instead we get this:

Besides, the lords of the Trident were sworn to Riverrun and House Tully, and to the King in the North; they would never accept Littlefinger as their liege. Unless they are made to. Unless my brother and my uncle and my grandfather are all cast down and killed. The thought made Sansa anxious, but she told herself she was being silly. Robb has beaten them every time. He'll beat Lord Baelish too, if he must. (ACOK, Sansa VII)

Her thoughts are consistently supportive of Robb. His defeat is a betrayal to her.

She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go. Winterfell was burned and desolate, Bran and Rickon dead and cold. Robb had been betrayed and murdered at the Twins, along with their lady mother. (AFFC, Sansa I)

As late as her TWOW sample chapter, she thinks this:

Robb would be his age, if he were still alive, she could not help but think, but Robb died a king, and this is just a boy.

Or do they think she only supports Northern independence if there's a Lannister on the throne and she would be fine returning to the fold once the next monarch is "nice"? Is that "nice" claimant then meant to be Dany, perhance?

In that case, I hope they don't imagine she'll forget the example of the last time Targaryens held the throne, and what even tyranny it meant for House Stark, specifically Rickard and Brandon, their companions, but also Lyanna. The Rebellion broke out because the guy on the throne demanded that Jon Arryn send him Eddard and Robert to kill.

Sansa is a history nerd. She knows this stuff.

The only reason the North as a whole deferred their independence movement was because Ned's bestie was on the throne. The abject enthusiasm with which the Northerners and the Riverlanders spontaneously proclaimed Robb's kingship is a testament to how widely held and popular that general sentiment always was in both regions.

Sansa herself has witnessed the decadence and ignorance that the royal leadership in KL is capable of, unchecked. She also witnessed how weak they are as soon as a region like the Reach witholds its support and resources. What benefit do people imagine she sees in remaining subservient to them?

The fact that Sansa has been brutally disabused of her idealised idea of courtly culture in the South removes any sentimental attachment she may have held for this political connection, so unless there was a really pressing political reason to consider it, she has every incentive to advocate for independence.