#same circumstances

[peanutbutterandbananasandwichs]

"Same circumstances" is literally one of the easiest things to understand in the show, Sam could not possibly have made that conversation clearer and YET!

[sunflowerchester]

I should have known the fall of media literacy was coming 10 years ago when half the Spn fandom couldn't understand what Sam meant in S9 when he said "same circumstances."

So Sam girls went 'round and 'round, trying to explain and RE-explain he wasn't saying "I would not save you, Dean" but rather he would not go against Dean's explicit desire to not have his bodily autonomy violated

THOSE were the circumstances he was referring to.

...but instead I was surprised.

[missjackil]

@noxbait asked:

What do you think Sam meant when he said "same circumstances I wouldn’t" in s9?

This has been a topic of debate since it happened. So much drama and confusion, both on the show and within the fandom. It was a very sad time indeed. Samgirls think Sam means that he wouldn't let an Angel possess Dean if he was dying, and Deangirls think Sam was just trying to hurt Dean because he was mad at him, and some think he actually meant, he wouldn't try to save Dean’s life period, which everyone with an IQ over 20 that has watched the show knows that isn't true.  Well, I don't believe either answer is correct, and I’ll tell you why. 

I think the answer is much clearer if you don't assume Sam is talking about the possession, but about Dean talking him out of closing the gates of Hell. I won't argue that Sam is angry about Dean tricking him into being possessed, but that’s not the focus of this argument. It starts when Dean tells Sam that he saved his hide back there (at the spa) and at the church, and at the hospital, and he'd do it again. Sam says that's what the problem is, Dean thinks he’s his brother his Savior who has to swoop in and save him and he thinks its the right thing to do but it's not. Kevin is dead, Crowley is in the wind and they're no closer to solving the Angel problem. Sam asks “Tell me, what is the UPSIDE of me being alive?”

Of course for Dean, it’s the simple fact that Sam isn't dead. For Sam, had he died, none of these things would be a problem.  This isn't “Had you not gotten me possessed” its “Had you let me die...” 

As we saw in S5, Sam is a martyr. He is willing to die to save the world. Now Dean is a martyr also, but he had yet to give his life up for the world. For Sam yes, he has died for Sam, but not for the world. When Sam chose to sacrifice himself in S5, Dean was very reluctant, but he didn't try to stop him, so for Dean to try to stop him now, in Sacrifice, Sam feels like theyre not on the same page anymore and he basically said this in Sharp Teeth. They don't see eye to eye on their roles in this anymore, so when Dean says “If the situation was reversed, and I was dying, you’d do the same thing” Sam is responding “No Dean I wouldn't, Same circumstances ( you giving your life to save the world) I wouldn't” 

Now, this still sounds OOC for Sam, doesn’t it? But it's not. First, we know Dean took what he said the wrong way, as though Sam wouldnt save his life period, But Sam has done it many times before. and even went over and beyond the call of duty even when he couldn't save him.  In S10 Sam tells Dean “I can’t lose you” and Dean says “Did you change your mind on that? Cause thats not what you said before” and Sam says “You know I didn't mean.....” all while Sam is Hell-bent on saving Deans life the entire season. ( I will get to Deans death scene in s9 “I thought you were cool with this?” “I lied” at the end of this essay if you're still awake) However, when we start off S11, Sam reasserts that they have to stop doing this. They need to stop saving each other at the expense of the world and the lives of others, so he talks Dean into doing his thing, save the girl and the baby, but he needs to let Sam do his thing, put his life on the line to save the world. 

Fast forward to the mid season of s11, and we have Lucifer confronting Sam on the same issue. He thinks he’s gone soft.  He’s telling Sam he doesn't have the balls anymore to make a great sacrifice for the world and he cant stand to lose Dean again, Sam disagrees and Lucifer says “Then why did you let Dean talk you out of closing the gates of Hell? Cause the old Sam wouldn't have that, not ever. And then we come to Sam’s big moment, telling Lucifer what's what, but I think we all get hung up on Sam saying he’s not ready to be his bitch, and not paying much attention to what he says before that “Im ready to die, Im ready to watch the people I love (Dean) die”. Yes, at that point, Sam was willing to let Dean die to save the world if it was necessary and he proved this in 11.23 when he made no argument about Dean being the soul bomb. Of course, he was upset about it, but he didn't try to talk him out of it. So, Sam was being honest when he said “Same circumstances (if you're trying to save the world) I wouldn't”

Now, Sam is never gonna do that again, as we saw in Prophet and Loss. Enough of this dying alone bullshit. He’s gung ho now on “If we die, then we do that together too” (Unfinished Business)

Now the problem of Dean’s death scene in 9.23 “I thought you were cool with this” “I lied” , 2 things need to be said about this. Jared said at a panel after s9 that he was supposed to say “I didnt think it would go this way” but forgot his line, said “I lied” and they kept it. Also, it was in response to their argument in the trailer park earlier in the episode. Dean tells Sam he’s gonna take down Metatron and’ Sam says “I know” and Dean says “No matter the consequences” and Sam says “I know” so he’s cool with Deans plan to take down Metatron no matter the consequences, but there he was trying to save Dean instead of letting him stay there to try to keep fighting. 

Sorry it was winded but I hope this sheds new light on a long-debated topic

Thank you Noxie!!

[peanutbutterandbananasandwichs]

I can't be your horse any more You're not the warrior I've been looking for

Warrior - Laura Marling

The Purge - Supernatural 9.13

[sunflowerchester]

hmmm not to be a dick but hope dean learns a REAL good lesson about what it’s like to have an angel high-jack your body against your will

[sunflowerchester]

child-of-sunshine replied to your post “maadskittlez29  flintinlove: [x] “Be as extreme,...”

YES THANK I keep seeing people saying that Dean is telling sam to stand up for himself and recognizing his trauma, and so we should be thankful!! And I'm like... no, that's not what he's saying. I'd be ecstatic if it were, but from this clip alone, what he's saying is "stop seeing things from multiple points of view, you should agree with Me and Only Me."

Holy mother of FUCK.

There was an ENTIRE season of this godforsaken show (S9) where Sam DID stand up for himself (AGAINST DEAN) and recognized his trauma (WHICH DEAN CAUSED) and was raked of the coals for it (MOST LIKELY BY THE SAME PEOPLE WHO CLAIM DEAN IS ENCOURAGING SAM TO STICK UP FOR HIMSELF). 😤  

I have an ENTIRE fucking tag (”SAME CIRCUMSTANCES”) where myself and an assortment of bitter Sam girls have had to defend Sam’s very reasonable stance with Dean about The Gadreel Fiasco (TM) from people who claimed Sam was being unfair for daring to have completely reasonable emotional reactions to his autonomy being taken away and his memories being erased at the command of HIS OWN BROTHER. We fought for SEASONS over this issue and it was BLOODY and EXHAUSTING... but now all of a sudden, to defend Dean’s (as you so perfectly articulated it) "stop seeing things from multiple points of view, you should agree with Me and Only Me" rant, they want to act like they’re in favor of Sam standing up for himself against trauma and that Dean is advocating that???? After how butthurt Dean got for being rightfully called out for violating his brother’s body, mind, and trust??? 

I guess as long as it’s not Dean who caused the trauma they’re on board.

Sounds about fucking right. This fandom never ceases to surprise me even though they never change. I’m the idiot for continuing to be shocked by the hypocrisy and deadass delusion. 

[moddestmouse]

Currently losing it over the idea of BC and BoCo having a fire and smoking and fiddling together

[missjackil]

A Different Look at The Purge 9x13

Tonight Im going to skip my “Top 30 Favs” entry because a lot of Tumblrs are offline today, and open a discussion about a topic that may have been talked out to death, but, take a different approach to the subject. Please understand right away, I am not throwing either Winchester under the bus, nor am I claiming one is more right than the other, and leave that completely up to your interpretation. Im speaking about the painful argument Sam and Dean had at the end of The Purge. I think right off we can all agree it hurt!! Some will feel it hurt more for Sam, some will feel it hurt more for Dean, and I understand both sides, and I feel like both these boys were hurting big time.  Now, if this is a touchy subject for you, and you dont think you could look at it with a fresh point of view, and see it in a possible other way, then dont go past the cut. I dont want to fight about the topic, but I would love a discussion. 

Now, Ive watched S9, 100 times, and have always drawn the same conclusion when I got to that argument. Sam was beyond hurt that Dean tricked him into being posessed by Gadreel, Dean maintains he did it because Sam would have died, yet Sam feels like he should have died anyway. Dean tells Sam if the situation were reversed and he was dying, Sam would do the same thing. Sam says, “No Dean I wouldnt... same circumstances... I wouldnt” and Ive always taken this as Sam saying he’d never trick Dean into being posessed, and Dean takes it like Sam wouldnt save his life. Right? I think most of you see it this way too, am I correct? If so.... this might be interesting to you. What if, theyre not talking about the posession, but about Dean saving Sam in the church?  The Gadreel posession is mentoned once, briefly in this episode, but not in this conversation. I noticed, for the first time, that Dean doesnt bring it up. He says to Sam, “Ya know, I saved your hide back there, and I saved it in the church. And Id do it again” and Sam says “And that, is the problem” Maybe Sam isnt thinking about the posession here, but the fact that Dean stopped him from shutting down Hell. Then when Dean says “youd do the same thing” and Sam says “Same circumstances, I wouldnt” the convo takes a different turn. What if Sam wasnt saying that he wouldnt trick Dean into posession, but that he wouldnt talk Dean out of martyring himself to save the world? Think for a minute, why WOULD Sam talk Dean out of it? Sam has already martyred himself, and died to save the world, and Dean didnt try to talk him out of it. In fact, it was the first time Dean really let go and let Sam do what he felt was the right thing.  Lets rewind to the episode before this one, Sharp Teeth. At the end of that, the bros had anangsty convo too, but during this, Sam says “we’ve forgotten our roles in all this” which in Sams eyes, is probably, saving people at all costs, even if they die in the process. Is this OOC for Sam? No, not at all. He already did it in Swan Song, he was willing to do it again in Sacrifice, and even at the end of S10,. he was willing to die so that Dean could stop hurting people.  Now theres no doubt in my mind that Sam would do anything in his power to save Deans life, and hes shown that, and yet, he was never confronted with Dean needing to die to save the world, until S11.  In 11x1 Dean had killed Death, and Rowena finished the spell and released The Darkness, and now a whole town is dead or dying. Sam tells Dean hes unleashed a force on the world that could destroy it, and hed do it again in a second... and thats where they need to change. They need to stop saving each other and letting the world suffer for it. (that didnt last very long hehe) but Lucifer called Sam on that very thing in 11x10 that instead of choosing the world, they choose each other and thats why Sam cant fight the good fight anymore. Yes, this was a manipulation by Lucifer, but Sam knew he wasnt wrong.  But Sam proudly stated that hes willing to die, and hes willing to watch people he loves die (Dean) rather than being Lucifers bitch.  Sam later, without hesitation, takes the burden off of Dean to kill Amara. And later still, we find out that Sam’s biggest fear is Dean leaving him (Dont Call me Shurley) and yet, in Alpha and Omega, when it was determined that Dean would have to be the bomb that kills Amara... Sam hurt, and he cried, but he didnt try to stop him. And just a head canon, because we’ll never actually know, but I dont think Sam would have tried to get Dean back at this point, I think he would die fighting the very next bad guy. Did you see how he was with Toni?? My boy had no more shits to give.  I think Sam and Dean understand their roles more now. Of course they will save each other however they can, but I think they would chose to die together to save the world now instead of leaving each other to live or die alone.