#sonic 3&knuckles

[sonic7ischaos]

Everything has been building to this moment. Long ago, a warrior was spoken of who would go on to prevent the greatest tragedy from befalling the remnants of our people and their legacy.

A great and powerful usurper came to our home and began unleashing devastation in search for the artifacts long guarded by our people, and the ultimate power they held. An outsider would then come, following this threat, this tyrant, and in pursuing him would gather the artifacts of legend, aided by one of our people. The outsider would use their power themselves, and awaken to the prophesied transformation, into the warrior long spoken of in legend, driving off the tyrant and saving our people's legacy.

In terms of its role in Sonic's lore and story, Super Sonic isn't the narrative equivalent of Super Saiyan Goku, Hyper Sonic is.

THAT is why he's important. The games preceding 3K are building to this moment, and all the foreshadowing in Sonic 3K itself are about this mural, the Super Emeralds, and Hyper Sonic. NOT Super Sonic, HYPER Sonic.

And yeah I KNOW Dragonball isn't Sonic's only influence, and it has a lot in common, possibly MORE with stuff like Lupin III and Yu Yu Hakushou, but this is ABSOLUTELY what they're doing with this. All the commonalities between the Chaos Emeralds and the Dragonballs, the Echidna tribe and the Namekians, Eggman and Frieza, Sonic and Goku, Knuckles and Piccolo, it is NOT an accident that this is the story they told so soon after it happened in Dragonball.

And I want to stress, Sonic is NOT just Mickey Mouse Dragonball, but come on. They wore their influences on their sleeves SO much in this era of the series. So blatantly you can pinpoint precisely what is being referenced almost any time they do it. Death Egg=Death Star, Angel Island=Laputa, and YES, the Chaos Emeralds = the Dragonballs. They've even got bigger, more powerful ones on the home of their guardians because Angel Island ALSO = Namek.

It's the single most important moment in the entire Sonic series. More important than Gerald and the ARK. More important than Tikal and Chaos.

You can maybe remove Hyper Sonic from the games, get away from the power creep of it (which is dumb, that's not how power creep works, but whatever), but if you want to keep Hidden Palace and Doomsday Zone in the story, this is what it has to be. This is what it IS, you can't remove Hyper Sonic from the STORY of Sonic 3K. Part of the reason Sonic starts the game in Super form is to foreshadow his growth. The mural doesn't even make sense in light of that. It doesn't MEAN anything if it's prophesying Super Sonic fighting Eggman, he already DID that at the end of Sonic 2, and then again at the end of the first half of 3K when you fight Big Arms (because the canon sequence of events is that you lose the Emeralds to the Hidden Palace shrine after going through the giant ring in Mushroom Hill. Sonic and Tails find Knuckles guarding a secret passage at the start of the stage before getting warped there).

What I'm saying, is that Hyper Sonic should be included in lore stuff. They should talk about it somehow. My preference is that Hyper Sonic comes back to the games fully as an unlockable transformation via special stages (and those should come back too, even in 3D), but even without that, this was a major event in the lore that had a drastic impact on the setting going forward. The story built around it INTRODUCED KNUCKLES AND ANGEL ISLAND. And the story IS built entirely around it. In the same way the Frieza Saga is built around Goku's transformation, all encounters and plot beats leading up it.

I really hope the lore team figures out some way to handle it, because as it stands the central plot thread of the still most important game in the series (in terms of lore and worldbuilding) is treated like a niche background detail, a fun fact dedicated fans, and no one else, care about.

[sonic7ischaos]

The Sonic Mania timeline existing separately from the main timeline has a lot of interesting implications for the series' lore post Sonic 3 & Knuckles.

For example the Sonic Adventure games never happened. Mania Classic Eggman got pulled into main timeline Eggman's scheme with the Time Eater and never found the Echidna tribe tablets and murals about Chaos, so Mania Chaos is still sealed in the Master Emerald with Tikal with all his hatred. Tails hasn't gone through his character arc and grown independent from Sonic, nor has Amy. Knuckles is still ignorant of his people and the mistakes that led to their downfall. And since SA1 didn't happen and Eggman moved onto different plans, that means Shadow is still in stasis on Prison Island, which means he's still got a vendetta against humanity, meaning that he's vulnerable to Black Doom's manipulation when he inevitably shows up, which means he'd probably stay an antagonist. Without Shadow to help fight off the Black Arms, they'd have to find another way to beat them, maybe a team up with Eggman, maybe they rely on the Chaos Emeralds again, maybe both. I imagine part of the story would be uncovering the "mystery" of Project Shadow in the Mania timeline, as no one one know without Eggman being the one to let Shadow loose and things playing out the way they do in SA2.

Without the specific plans failing the way they do, Eggman never gets to the one in Sonic Advance 2, and so he never accidentally puts Vanilla in a capsule, and so they never meet Cream and go on an adventure to save her mom and make her part of the main cast. Without the events of Adventure 2 and Gerald's diary, Eggman never goes looking for the Gizoid, and so they never meet and destroy Emerl, who never influences the design of Gemerl, Battle never happens and without the specific events leading to it, Advance 3 doesn't happen either. Without Cream, Blaze would still come to Sonic's world, but she wouldn't learn to trust in and rely on others, and so likely wouldn't make an ally of Sonic and his friends, so Rush at least plays out differently.

There's nothing specifically preventing the Riders games from playing out mostly as they do in the main timeline, aside from the butterfly effect.

On and on it goes like this. Things get a lot fuzzier around Unleashed, as Eggman's plans would've diverged so much by this point that it's unlikely that he splits the planet and awakens Dark Gaia, so Sonic never meets Chip, never turns into the Werehog, and Unleashed as a whole doesn't happen. After that, there's nothing specifically leading Eggman in search of power off world to find the wisps, and he's already tried and failed to use the Phantom Ruby for his plans in Mania. He probably won't find the Starfall Islands, and The End probably stays trapped.

Already things are diverging as of Sonic Superstars, a plot that doesn't happen at all in the main timeline.

[sonic7ischaos]

Hyper Sonic should absolutely return.

Look, I understand the concerns about power creep and transformation creep, no one want Sonic to just turn into "a new transformation is the only way to solve any and all narrative problems" Dragonball style. but Hyper Sonic EXISTS. It played the deciding role in the Angel Island prophecy and stopping the Doomsday Zone robot from getting away with the Master Emerald. The power has crept already. The question to ask now isn't whether it should exist or not, but how it should be USED. Personally, I think accessing Angel Island and the Hidden Palace shrine should, lore wise, be the only way to do it, so Sonic would have to collect the Chaos Emeralds, go to Angel Island, go to the Hidden Palace Zone, place the Emeralds on the shrine, do the special stage challenges (because those should come back in the 3D games too) to power up the Emeralds, and have them be transformed temporarily until they run out of "Super Emerald transformation juice", turn back to the normal Chaos Emeralds, and scatter again.

Both in terms of gameplay and lore, it allows everyone else to get their own unique super forms while ensuring Sonic has his own unique, special main character only transformation. Purely on a gameplay level, it also makes Sonic's playthrough last longer, especially if they handle it like 3 & Knuckles did, where you've got to re-collect the Emeralds after a Super Sonic playthrough, or after finding the Hidden Palace Shrine.

I genuinely think it should make a comeback, even for one game, or even just as a gameplay contrivance. It encourages multiple playthroughs and increases replay value with the barest minimum of effort and assets. Literally just some animations, colors, effects, and sounds for Hyper, the work that would go into making the Emerald shrine, maybe a "you can now play as Hyper Sonic" screen, and the special stages, if you even go as far as needing to include them.

It's too cool and serves the gameplay, character, and lore way too well to leave to the wayside out of concern for power creep that's already happened.

[sonic7ischaos]

Dear Sonic fanbase,

Not every single fan game has to be better than the official releases for the phrase "Sonic fans make better Sonic games than Sonic Team" to be true. I see this stupid, head-ass take every time there's a shitty fan game (yes this is about Sonic Omens), and it's ridiculous. If there are more fan games coming out than official, that are better, then the statement is true. If the best fan games of the last decade are better than the best official game of the last decade, the statement IS TRUE. Sonic GT? Better than Forces, Lost World, Colors (yes I said it), Generations (YES, I SAID IT), and Unleashed (YES. I FUCKING SAID IT). More fun to control, more nuanced level design, cohesive Sonic styled aesthetic, it's better. And that's just ONE game. Sonic Time Twisted, Sonic and the Fallen Star, Sonic Before the Sequel, Sonic After the Sequel, Sonic Battle R, Sonic World and World DX, Sonic Triple Trouble 16-bit, Big's Big World. And these are just the more complete games, to avoid the usual "character controller in a big empty test area" complaint (as though the character controller isn't what makes these games better than official material in the first place, and why Utopia and Project Hero get so much praise). There are literally hundreds, if not thousands at this point that are flat out better than anything Sonic Team themselves have put out since 2005, 2003 if we wanna argue Heroes. Sonic Omens being arguably shitty (don't know, haven't played it) does not invalidate that disparity in quality.

And yeah, there are a lot MORE bad fan games than good, but I'm not here arguing that we should "hire this man", that is and has always been dumb and misinformed on the nature of game development, my POINT, is that so many of you smug pricks are ignoring the actual point being made, that there are standards, that Sonic Team themselves actually SET those standards in the first place with the original 6 main games (Sonic 1, CD, 2, 3K, Adventure, and Adventure 2), that they have since failed to even meet those standards let alone exceed them, that Sonic fans are closer to meeting or exceeding those standards than they currently are, and that THAT, is a BAD THING. Sonic Team shouldn't have ANY competition from the fan community in terms of quality, let alone consistent competition that is beating them into the ground. The official games should be THE draw for the gaming side of the series, but because they're failing to meet the standard they set in the 90's, fans are taking that niche, the niche that should belong to them. If Nintendo was less strict on fan games, I'd be willing to bet actual money they wouldn't be having an issue with this, that there'd be nothing to worry about because Nintendo would consistently put out game releases lightyears ahead of the fan stuff in terms of quality. And Nintendo is relevant because THAT IS THE STANDARD SONIC SET IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE. Sonic should be good enough on its own that there's indecision over whether it, or Mario is better.

The fact that the community has accepted the series falling so short of its own standard yet is willing to dismiss fan games that meet or surpass that standard, purely on the basis that it was made by fans, is dumb, and kind of worrying for the series as a whole. The sheer belligerent refusal to judge the quality of fan games on their own merits when comparing them to official material is baffling to me.

[sonic7ischaos]

The core of Sonic's gameplay.

There's a lot of back and forth between fans over what Sonic games are about at their core. High speed action and set pieces, boosting through levels, or rolling momentum physics and skillful platforming.

A couple days ago, I might have said the latter. Even now, in a broader sense, I'd still argue Sonic is about rolling and using terrain. But there's something more fundamental than that. Something that other games in the series without proper rolling/terrain physics get right that makes them feel like Sonic games.

Sonic's run:

EVERYTHING is built on how Sonic's run works, how there's a natural buildup of momentum as you run, building to a climax.

The Sonic Advance games do this:

The Adventure games do it :

Even Heroes does it:

There are nuances of course, Adventure 1 and 2 feel different to control, and Heroes feels distinct from the Adventure games, the Advance games, and the classics, as well as the rest of the Dimps made portable Sonic games. A lot of these don't even have rolling physics, only a slight change in speed going uphill or downhill vs. flat ground.

But they ALL feel like Sonic to control because of the way momentum builds, and the freedom of that movement in the directions available to you.

Post Unleashed, Sonic's run works differently. Even ignoring the changes to how turning and navigating in 3d works, running just serves a fundamentally different purpose. It's almost secondary to the boost, something you do when you're out of boost energy or there's some precise platforming to do. This is even true in the slower, less boost oriented Lost World, where Sonic's run speed is fixed to slow, or fast, with no in between (lots wrong with movement in that game besides the specifics of Sonic's unique controls).

Now, we have the knowledge to answer the question "what makes a Sonic game a Sonic game?", It's how he runs. If there isn't that buildup of momentum, you don't have something that feels like a Sonic game to play.

It should be noted that stuff like this is how Mario games always feel like Mario games and Kirby games always feel like Kirby games. In games where player controlled movement is your foremost interaction with the game, these nuances comprise the foundational elements that define these game's feel.

[sonic7ischaos]

Hey, so you know how people say Sonic needs to find gameplay that works and stick with it?

Like UUUUUUUHHHHHH...

This?

Or UMMMMMMM...

THIS?

What about

THIS?!

The thing about this thinking is that it ignores one crucial fact: Sonic already has a consistently beloved set of gameplay mechanics and systems that only need iteration to continue to remain relevant. Do this in 3d. That’s what the Adventure games tried to be, that’s what Sonic needs to do now. Don’t reinvent the wheel when YOU’VE GOT A PERFECTLY FUNCTIONAL WHEEL! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?! HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO GET TO WORK NOW?! PUT THE WHEEL BACK ON THE CAR AND GO THINK ABOUT YOUR LIFE!

[sonic7ischaos]

Sonic 4 wasn’t proof Classic Sonic gameplay couldn’t be done again and the same is true for 06 and Adventure gameplay.

Sonic Mania EXISTS! It is proof that there was something there drawing people to Sonic gameplay in the first place, that it wasn’t just the character (which, admittedly, did a lot of the heavy lifting). The same is true for Sonic Adventure and the way it compares to 06, Adventure 1 in particular because of the way 06 tries to emulate it. The Adventure games map pretty well to the classics in this comparison, with 06 taking the spot of Sonic 4. A game that has all the trappings of its predecessors with none of the execution or nuance. If it WAS called Sonic Adventure 3 it would’ve been in name only and a “Sonic Adventure Mania” would have been (and frankly still is) necessary to bridge that gap. And it IS possible. Spamming “Sonic Adventure 3″ at every Sonic announcement stream became a meme for a reason. People WANT more Sonic Adventure. They WANT to see what can be done with that gameplay, especially with modern tech. Imagine the ambition present in SA1 fully realized thanks to the Advancement in tools available to game devs. Just...the waiting for the next official game announcement is killing me, especially in light of the Sonic Adventure remake rumors.

[sonic7ischaos]

Sonic Adventure 3

So I’ve been a part of the Sonic fan community for a long time and one of the most contentious issues that crops up is discussion of a hypothetical “Sonic Adventure 3″. What usually happens is that someone says “I want sonic Adventure 3!” and someone else points to Sonic Heroes or Shadow the Hedgehog or Sonic 06 or Sonic Unleashed. THAT or someone brings it up and gives a list of things they want. “I want there to be a more serious story and multiple characters and 3d platforming etc.” There’s no consensus on what Sonic Adventure 3 would even be.

For those opposed to the idea, this would be the part were I stop or dismiss people’s wish for such a hypothetical game with the above notion of a missing consensus. That’s not what this is. People in general but Sonic fans especially have an exceptionally hard time articulating what they want or what they mean. I’m not interested in being dismissive in general.  Personally, I want something like a Sonic Adventure 3 but in talking about it, I run into the same issue the whole fanbase has always had. What makes my input more valuable than any other? The answer is nothing. My input is just another voice screaming into an indifferent void. Still, I have a voice, it costs nothing for me to use it.

SO, let’s define what we mean (what ALL or MOST mean) when we ask for such a game to be made and to start, let’s define what “Sonic Adventure 3″ isn’t. I’m writing this under the (presumably correct) assumption that none of the above games count as Sonic Adventure 3 and I’m doing this because the fans of the Adventure games aren’t satisfied with them (myself included). Fans of the classics don’t treat Sonic 4 as the actual continuation of the legacy of Sonic 3&Knuckles but they mostly do for Sonic Mania. Why? Because an emotional need/want was recognized and filled by the latter and neglected by the former. We didn’t want a game CALLED Sonic 4, we wanted a game that FELT like a Sonic 4 (which Mania gave us).

Now, let’s get more granular in why these games aren’t Sonic Adventure 3 and lets start with Sonic 06. The reason we’re starting with 06 is because, among the existing contenders for Sonic Adventure 3, this one comes the closest in terms of design, mechanics, narrative, and tone and is the game referenced most in this discussion. Sonic 06 in its entirety is a callback to Sonic Adventure 1. You control several characters on an interconnected narrative with a mostly action movie esque story (with some, perhaps too serious melodrama) as you go from level to level through interconnected hub worlds populated with human npc’s. Eggman hopes to unleash some kind of monster to harness its power for world domination. You control Sonic, Shadow, and Silver (plus others) through linear levels that have slight path branching as they converge near the level’s end. Each character has unique abilities they use to navigate levels and challenges in different ways. Each main character has their own character theme song (and the soundtrack sounds very SEGA). By all accounts, it SHOULD be considered an Adventure game, so why isn’t it? Put simply, it’s the mechanics and their effect on the game’s design as a whole. What do I mean? Well, unlike Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, Whose abilities and movement were built to get Sonic and co through the levels quickly, by building momentum (less than the classics but it’s there). There’s a focus on platforming that isn’t present in 06 which focuses more on combat encounters. Sonic is slow and moves more precisely so it’s easier to land hits on enemies who now have health bars. Shadow and Silver are like this too and I think it’s because of Silver and his PK mechanics. Enemies were given health bars so Silver couldn’t just one shot everything with tons of projectiles (built on what was probably an expensive physics engine they wanted to show off). If they wanted to save on resources, they had to re use assets meaning enemies in Sonic and Shadow’s gameplay needed health bars as well. What this means is that all enemy encounters require the player to stand around wailing on them one at a time and in order to pad the game’s length, they gated sections of levels behind groups of enemies you needed to defeat to move on. The pace of the game is entirely dictated by these encounters. Lets say that every other part of the game functioned perfectly. The automation worked so you were never thrown off loops, the hub worlds were smaller and had lots of landmarks and signposting (plus items and secrets hidden throughout to give them a purpose). Lets say that the controls were better, still having the same abilities, just not so stiff to move around. This game would still not be a Sonic Adventure 3 because on a fundamental level, Sonic Adventure games are structured like platformers while Sonic 06 is structured like a beat em up (Final fight, Castle Crashers, Streets of rage, you get it). The goal in Adventure games isn’t to defeat enemies, it’s to race to the end of the level or explore it (your choice).

Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog have almost this exact problem but those games control better and in Shadow’s case, it makes sense with the guns being a focus. The characters move faster and enemy health bars are smaller. They’re also better designed in lots of other ways than 06 but this isn’t the post for bashing 06, I’m trying to define what Sonic Adventure 3 would be (for the purposes of future discussion because the Sonic fanbase NEEDS to have this discussion).

Now, on to why Sonic Unleashed isn’t Adventure 3 (besides the continued requests and desire for such a game, see above thoughts about Sonic 4 and Sonic Mania). In a similar way to  06, Heroes and Shadow, the reason for it’s lack of consideration as an Adventure game is it’s separate design focus. Ignoring the werehog (for whom most of this applies in a general sense anyway) The gameplay of Unleashed isn’t focused on platforming in the same way as Adventure 1 and 2. Sure there IS platforming, but the skillful navigation of in game environments isn’t the focus. Making sure Sonic gets moving and STAYS moving is the focus. The platforming isn’t the goal, it’s an obstacle in itself. The way the boost is implemented in Unleashed (and all 3d Sonic games going forward) re-contextualizes the way the player interacts with platforming sections. It’s not about using momentum to adapt to your circumstances and skillfully navigate through and around enemies and obstacles, it’s about not stopping. That platforming stuff is a hindrance to your speed so you want to always take the shortest route. It doesn’t use 3d space in any meaningful way unlike even Sonic 06, which comes closer in terms of design philosophy but falls FAR short in terms of quality.

I don’t think Adventure gameplay is tied to any extraneous elements like narrative or tone (though those certainly add to the “feel” of an Adventure game). I think the core design philosophy of Sonic gameplay and its roots as a platforming series is what makes it An Adventure game. How you control the character and how you interact with the game world through that character is THE most essential element.

That said, Can we please have different writers (Ian Flynn.) I don’t want to drag anyone but Pontac and Graff CANNOT write a compelling Sonic story to save their lives. Maybe they’d be a good fit for something but Sonic the Hedgehog is NOT that something. Also bring back Crush 40 and character themes.