#tcp meta

[thebisexualwreckoning]

why do you think so many people characterize cardan as a weak and submissive sap?

it's because people hate to see a pathetic man winning and getting a bad bitch.

no, all jokes aside, cardan is NOT weak and submissive (well, i have opinions on the submissiveness). he's quite smart actually and his entire schtick is that he's constantly underestimated, by his family yes, but also by jude (end of book 2 and start of book 3). Many readers fall into same trap as balekin did over cardan, i.e. that just because cardan isn't strong in the traditional 'masculine' sense (sword fighting, etc), he's worthless to jude. A lot of cardan's strength lies in his wiliness - he's smart, he's good at politics (when he wants to be), he knows how to throw a hell of a party (something i can attest is very important to know when schmoozing the rich and powerful). Cardan doesn't need to be a muscly, punching teeth out and stabbing people in the guts type of mmc, jude's already got that handled (the hospitality of knives, anyone?). Cardan is there as a narrative foil for jude to play off of. cardan and jude switch the conventional roles assigned to fmcs and mmcs - cardan is placed in what is typically considered the 'feminine' role, the supporting character, the character who uses their charms to manipulate people while jude plays the act first, ask questions later role. obviously this does not match up with established role men are supposed to play in our society, so, he's considered weak and submissive and bringing jude down.

On top of that, people also forget he's literally an 18 year old boy. he's a teenager. all teenagers are pathetic to a certain extent. he's been abused throughout his life {emotionally, mentally, physically (i would even make the argument sexually)}. of course he's not going to fulfil the fantasy of the big and strong 'shadow daddy' that booktok seems to find ever so appealing. he's not even an adult when the book starts. he's at most 16/17. he's fucked up and traumatised. both his parents abandoned him! his mental health is a suggestion at best. he's suffering from crippling amounts of self-hatred. he's living in an actively hostile environment. he's suffering from an alcohol and drug addiction! he's running an illicit smuggling ring rescuing glamoured humans from his abuser knowing that it could get him killed. his consent has never once been respected. even jude, the love of his life, fucking violates his bodily autonomy. he cannot say no to her. do you understand me? he cannot say no to her. does anybody realise how fucked up that is? we as readers know that jude's not going to misuse this power because she understands it herself, but imagine how terrifying it must be for cardan. that is a line even cardan doesnt cross in his and jude's fights during book 1. even during the faerie fruit incident (which rubs me the wrong way still), you can see how furious he is at everything that is going on! we can tell he's barely holding himself together even through jude's delirious state and general unreliable narration. i'm not saying cardan is perfectly innocent, he is called the cruel prince, but this poor boy is not well-adjusted at all. he's been through so fucking much and its sickening to witness people reduce his character into a fucking idiot.

[scythedom]

notarealaccount-1234 replied:

ALSO when he stabs her finger so it bleeds cause he know the salt in the blood would help her

Okay, here’s what I can say about this. I’m not through my reread, but.

1. The pin Cardan uses to stab her fingers is, in fact, Jude’s herself. Nicasia stole it from her earlier in the book, taunting her if she was trying to look pretty like they did. This means that Cardan obtained it, somehow; either Nicasia tossed it and he snagged it, or he simply stole it from her. Either way, he held onto it with the knowledge that it 100% belonged to Jude.

2. Cardan knows there’s salt in blood, which takes Jude a minute to process. (To be fair, she’s coming out of her glamoured mind-state.) It’s weird to me that this would be his first idea, but maybe I’m just the idiot in this situation. This is only relevant to my next point.

3. When Jude tries to help that other human girl escape from Balekin’s estate, she lies to a guard saying they are going to Lord Cardan, at his request. The guard replies that Cardan “better return both servants this time”. Even Jude wonder what the hell that means. As the reader, and as Jude will later find out, we know that Cardan doesn’t kill people. He’s not into murdering people. Hurting them is fine, but I see it pointless he would bother with servants glamoured out of their minds. So, what is this idea of him not returning servants? Especially considering he literally lives with Balekin?

This is to say, I have this weird idea that maybe Cardan returns some humans to the mortal world, which is why some servants go missing and that he instinctively used the salt-in-blood trick on Jude. 

To be honest, this is a huge conclusion to jump to based on the information at hand. I don’t see why Cardan would even do this. It’s definitely a reach. I don’t know why else both of these things would be mentioned, though? Maybe it will get addressed in Queen of Nothing, or it was used in a scene that was eventually cut but some of the mentions went through.

Or maybe it’s nothing. Probably that. But it’s fun to speculate!

[mhevarujta]

Cardan VS Humans

I am trying to piece together what is Cardan’s actual view on humans and I noticed that he never actually discriminates them as a species or because they’re weak, which I hadn’t fully noticed in my first reading because, for the first part of the book, his, Nicassia and Valerian’s belief seem to coincide initially.

While I don’t necessarily believe that he sees humans as equals, he has regard for their lives:

While this may be reduced to the morality he has set for himself on a personal level, when Jude leaves with the human girl it seems that he notices them and I strongly believe that he might have let them go because he didn’t mind and not because he simply wasn’t paying too much attention.

We also saw that:

-his click’s attitude towards Jude (which I am not excusing) was the outcome of them thinking that she back-stabbed one of their own

-in his first scene we see Cardan tearing the wings of a fae that tries to diminish him.

To me, this shows that -while his behavior cannot be excused by human standards and out of the context of the fae’s society- Cardan, much like Jude, has descended into darkness in his attempt to grasp straws of the kind of power, control and respect; things that he is being constantly deprived of despite his position in the fae-society. Not only is his behavior the aftermath of feeling that he has been insulted or hurt in some way, directly or indirectly, but the agency of the offender is something that matters to him. His cruel punishments befall both the fae and the humans, but, when a human almost bits him senseless without being in control of his actions, Cardan refuses to hurt him despite knowing that he can spare himself physical pain this way.

While I am aware that some fans were put off by Cardan’s cruelty being on a high-school bullying level in the context of the world Black has created, I think that her consciousness of the way that she is writing him -which is also demonstrated by her use of ‘boy’ instead of ‘man’ to refer to him- is what has given the character depth and made him fascinating, when he could have easily been contrived and generic considering all the bullies and bad-boys I have read about in books.

[scythedom]

@lydiagraya replied:

What if he did it for Jude bc he knows she’s human and decided to help humans ? I know this is a stretch but also what if cardans affections for Jude run deeper and a lot further than we know

I think Cardan’s conflict is that he is infatuated by humans in general. I think they captivate him on a level he’s not willing to admit. I think this is seen in a variety of scenes— Cardan keeping Jude’s pins, like I mentioned, Cardan having the book Alice in Wonderland (Jude even wonders how he got it), and most notably Cardan tracing along Jude’s rounded ear.

Of course most of these things have to do with Jude herself, but I think that’s only part of why Cardan is so fascinated by her. I think that’s the initial lure, and then how stubborn and steadfast she is, how tough and resilient. Cardan remarks several times how humans are rot, those born to die, and I think that intrigues and also terrifies him. 

Either way, I think Cardan values human’s lives way more than other fey (fae?) do. I think he is probably one of those most sympathetic to their suffering. This could be revealed in Queen of Nothing, if we learn how Cardan actually fared while Jude was in the Undersea.

It literally pained him to leave her to suffer there, and I don’t think it’s innately because it was Jude. I think Cardan values human suffering on the same level of fey suffering. While he’s willing to hurt them, he is not the type to inflict long-lasting injuries. 

It is also possible, though. Maybe his interest in Jude kick started this— maybe he could just no longer idly stand by while some people suffer, just like Jude did in that instance. I think it’ll also be very interesting if it gets revealed that Cardan did spot Jude that day, and decided not to say anything.

[scythedom]

@theimmortalcunt replied:

I 100% support this. someone asked holly on twitter about why that guard told Jude to tell cardan to bring them back this time and holly said that we’ll find out in queen of nothing PLUS holly said cardan will be in the mortal world in qon so it all connects

This is actually so interesting! I had no idea that someone asked Holly this; I was literally just guessing blindly. I’m glad other people noticed this too. When typing it, I really thought it was an outlandish idea, but now I’m a lot more confident in it. 

I’m really excited to find out what’s happening. Maybe Jude will catch him in the mortal world instead of him coming to visit her? 

I dug up the tweet for everyone to view here, as @heyheyheylemonade was asking for it.

Holly replied to this tweet on July 9th, so yes. We will apparently find out in QoN.

[scythedom]

@i-made-it replied:

The only thing I don't agree with is cardan looking at them in the water I don't think he was trying to help cos then she would probably comment on how nicasia would be like wtf or smthn

This is fine; this is only speculation, and I doubt Holly Black would ever actually confirm if this was the case or not. Despite this, I still think this is the truth. Throughout my entire reread, Holly Black has always given something to Cardan. For the first read through, the bullying made me sick— it was severe and unsettling. In my reread, though, I notice how often Cardan is not an active participant or someone who starts it; mainly, he fills his role.

Don’t get me wrong, he hurts Jude and bullies her. He hurts lots of people to make up for his own feelings of powerlessness. Still, he doesn’t actively attack her physically. Honestly, it seems he likes it best just to insult and argue with Jude. The scene after Jude stabs Valerian, Cardan pretty much tells Taryn to hurry along so he and Jude can do their weird sexual tension arguing without her being annoying.

Cardan is cruel, but also keep in mind that he uses how other people see him to his advantage. He is cruel to Jude in the scene with the everapple in his own ways to stop Valerian from choking her, and to stop Nicasia from making Jude lick her fingers clean. He’s not innocent, but he does use his role to his advantage.

I think it would be more weird that Cardan would only watch passively as Jude drowned. Even if he was only trying to get a better look, it was probably to see if she was okay, what the hell was happening, and to see if she managed to get her footing.

You can at least admit while literally everyone else was passive, including Taryn, Cardan was the only one who made any moves at all. Which, I think, is a little bit telling.

[mhevarujta]

TCP and ‘pride and prejudice’

I think I got some Pride and Prejudice vibe from a certain square in The Cruel Prince. I am strictly talking about the character dynamics and not necessarily about the characters’ personalities.

Jude=Lizzie, Cardan = Darcy, Locke = Wickam, Taryn = Lydia

I am definitely not saying that Lizzie killed people and wanted power, that Darcy was a drunk or that Lydia was as conscious of her decisions as Taryn, so bare with me.

Jude, like Elizabeth, stands out; not just because she is human, but because of her spirit and of wanting to make it in the world she lives in on her own terms. Cardan’s arrogance and his behavior towards her affects Jude and she would never consider him as a romantic partner, while, at the same time, Cardan’s behavior is caused to an extent because of his pride and of his feelings for her despite his reservations.  This is also a case of each of the two characters being prejudiced about the other’s life and having formed an opinion of it that is not based to their real experiences. Not to mention that their verbal spars are a thing to behold.

Locke would be definitely Wickam. He is Cardan’s back-stabbing ‘friend’, a thrill-sicker, eager for drama and not caring about the lives he plays with. He approaches both sisters and he ends up with the one who is willing to settle while hurting the other’s pride. Moreover, if we see Nicasia as a mix of Caroline and Georgiana, he also got involved with a person that Cardan cared about and this is something that Nicasia regretted.

He also secretly courts Taryn, who wants to find love, get married and settle down and find her place in the world to the point that she has no regard of her sister’s feelings or of how her actions speak for her character. That said, Taryn is definitely not a naive little girl. She doesn’t believe in storybook-romances and she is aware of who Locke is and of his inability to love in the way that she needs on an emotional level; which is exactly what makes her a compelling character whose story I’m eager to learn more about.