#the phaedrus

[renaultphile]

anon rereading the charioteer again...

i'm sorry to keep asking questions (i really wish the livejournal was still active!!) but i was wondering how you interpret "Laurie's instinct hid what it had felt, for just then his heart would have rejected it as an outrage. As for Ralph, he had had a trying half-hour, and his perceptions were strained; it cannot be supposed he had subtlety enough to guess that a moment of black courage had given him power unasked, when he had only been seeking strength." maybe it's just a me issue but there's SO many instances in this book where the pronouns confuse me and i don't know who's being talked about!

which one of them has been given power unasked? i'm assuming it's talking about laurie and the moment of black courage was him turning down ralph's collar? i think it's the "as for ralph" that is getting me mixed up. at first i read the bit that followed it as ralph had had a trying half-hour and ralph's perceptions were strained (which wouldn't be unbelievable considering the circumstances, i think), rather than it being about laurie's feelings regarding ralph.

as i was typing this and thinking it through it makes a little more sense, but i'm also not confident about my understanding or my ability to articulate it lol

Hello anon and it’s really lovely to hear from you again, it is such a pleasure getting these challenging asks, and this one is a real poser 🤔  In the end I’ve had to just try and feel my way through it, so here goes!

So firstly, I think it must be Ralph who had the moment of black courage, purely based on the way the sentence is structured.  It seems to make more sense as a description of something that he has that is hidden from him than the other way round.  I had the pleasure of re-reading this whole section and what really struck me was the degree to which Laurie is so locked into their former hierarchal relationship of Head boy and fifth-former, so that might also make sense of the idea that Ralph has ‘power unasked’.

So, if that’s true, what on Earth was the ‘moment of black courage’?  Well, I’m struggling to see anything that fits the bill in this scene, although I can imagine Laurie feeling shocked at his own boldness with the collar 😮  There is, however, Ralph’s reaction to ‘The Phaedrus’ popping up again and Laurie’s confusion about it.  So, I think the moment of black courage is when Ralph gives Laurie ‘The Phaedrus’ in chapter two, along with that cryptic confession.  In the study scene, he is in the middle of a sentence, and he breaks off to look for the book, so it could definitely be seen as something he reached for to help him say to Laurie what he wanted to say.  And really, it was a pretty courageous thing to do.  ‘Black courage’ also neatly mirrors that early description of having ‘the bleak courage of a disciplined neurotic.’

On this interpretation, the thing he reached for to give him strength gave him power unasked, because Laurie became totally obsessed with the book, and through it his obsession with a mythical Ralph only got stronger.  The agonies he goes through over Ralph’s ‘anguish’ and his unnecessary guilt at not telling him about Andrew earlier show just how much he is struggling to free himself of the need to look to Ralph as a higher authority.  And Ralph, who wants him as a lover, is now burdened with a responsibility he wasn’t expecting to have.

I would love to know what you think.  Does anyone else have an interpretation here?

[backlogbooks]

the person who owned this copy of the Phaedrus before me is fed up with Plato

[socraticsuggestions]

your physical appetites are actually a Dark Horse who wants to steer your soul chariot off course please ignore him

[renaultphile]

Little bit of AU head-canon on Ralph, Laurie, The Phaedrus and David Blaize

There was something you did for me once. I expect you'll have forgotten long ago; but it made all the difference. I just wanted to tell you." He groped in the leg-pocket of his battle-dress, found what he wanted, and held it out. "Do you remember? You gave me this." It must be true, he thought, that Ralph had forgotten; for he stared at it dumbly, almost stupidly, and only reached out to take it just as Laurie was about to put it away again. He carried it over to the table and held it under the shaded reading-light, standing up so that the light only fell on his hands and on the book.

Ralph squinted at the cover - he made out the words 'Plato' and 'Phaedrus'. He stared and stared, in disbelief. The Phaedrus, he thought The Phaedrus. No. It's impossible. But after all the two volumes looked similar, and must have been next to each other in the jumble of books in the box. The box had long since been mislaid. All these years, Laurie had been treasuring this copy of Plato, when Ralph had meant to give him 'David Blaize'.

"Well," said Ralph with his back turned, "after all, seven years." He put the book down on the table, and looked abruptly at his watch. "Look, Spud, I'm sorry, I have to phone the station now. There's a man I have to give a message to. It's all right. I shan't be long."

[renaultphile]

TC re-read: What a way to end chapter 4

Oh yes, that book is 'still there' alright 😮

[aworldofseasandstars]

There is a third kind of madness which is a possession of the Muses; this enters into a delicate and virgin soul, and there inspiring frenzy, awakens lyric and all other numbers...he who, not being inspired and having no touch of madness in his soul, comes to the door and thinks that he will get into the temple by the help of art-he, I say, and his poetry are not admitted; the sane man is nowhere at all when he enters into rivalry with the mad-man.

Plato, The Phaedrus.

[anelegyperhaps]

Writing, Phaedrus, has this strange quality, and is very like painting; for the creatures of painting stand like living beings, but if one asks them a question, they preserve a solemn silence. And so it is with written words; you might think they spoke as if they had intelligence, but if you question them, wishing to know about their sayings, they always say only one and the same thing. And every word, when [275e] once it is written, is bandied about, alike among those who understand and those who have no interest in it, and it knows not to whom to speak or not to speak; when ill-treated or unjustly reviled it always needs its father to help it; for it has no power to protect or help itself.

Plato, The Phaedrus, quoting Socrates (approx. 370 BC)

[anelegyperhaps]

I heard, then, that at Naucratis, in Egypt, was one of the ancient gods of that country, the one whose sacred bird is called the ibis, and the name of the god himself was Theuth. He it was who [274d] invented numbers and arithmetic and geometry and astronomy, also draughts and dice, and, most important of all, letters. Now the king of all Egypt at that time was the god Thamus, who lived in the great city of the upper region, which the Greeks call the Egyptian Thebes, and they call the god himself Ammon. To him came Theuth to show his inventions, saying that they ought to be imparted to the other Egyptians. But Thamus asked what use there was in each, and as Theuth enumerated their uses, expressed praise or blame, according as he approved [274e] or disapproved. The story goes that Thamus said many things to Theuth in praise or blame of the various arts, which it would take too long to repeat; but when they came to the letters, “This invention, O king,” said Theuth, “will make the Egyptians wiser and will improve their memories; for it is an elixir of memory and wisdom that I have discovered.” But Thamus replied, “Most ingenious Theuth, one man has the ability to beget arts, but the ability to judge of their usefulness or harmfulness to their users belongs to another; [275a] and now you, who are the father of letters, have been led by your affection to ascribe to them a power the opposite of that which they really possess. For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. You have invented an elixir not of memory, but of reminding; and you offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, for they will read many things without instruction and will therefore seem [275b] to know many things, when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise.

Plato, The Phaedrus, quoting Socrates (approx. 370 BC)