#thetolkienhat

[theserpentsadvocate]

Haleth!

All righty.

*gulp* To be honest I have no idea if I’m remotely qualified to talk about Haleth… *panics quietly*

So-oo. Might as well go for it: I’m going to say Gryffindor primary.

I almost said Slytherin. I wanted to. But… if Haleth has a group she considers ‘her people’ then that group would be, well, her people.  And I know that some of them died on the relocation to Brethil. It was basically a calculated risk. I don’t necessarily disagree with it, but I think that it’s not something a Slytherin primary would do – risk the lives of the people in their circle that way. Of course, it’s possible her circle was smaller than that, but I can’t frame it in a way where Slytherin!Haleth wouldn’t still be endangering some of the people in it… which is not something a Slytherin would do.

That said, she’s definitely a Felt person, not a Constructed person, so if you rule out Slytherin that leaves Gryffindor, the Idealist/Felt house. And I do think that suits her – I’m leaning heavily on the “the thoughts of the Eldar are strange to Men” conversation here: there are things that are Just Right and Just Wrong, and having anything to do with people who killed your family is Just Wrong. People who don’t understand that are weird and kind of disturbing.

Haleth has ideals – familial loyalty, blood should be repaid by blood, independence is important (#HaladinIndependance!). And the ideals are the most important thing – they’re worth a dangerous and potentially fatal journey through a seriously terrifying and fatal place. That is a Gryffindor value.

I am… having trouble with the secondary. I’m leaning towards Slytherin because, well, I can’t recall if it’s specified that she’s adaptable but I’ve always taken it for granted simply because she’d have to be. But then that particular logic suggests a Slytherin model, not secondary.

But you know what? Screw it. I am going to say that Haleth is a Gryffindor Primary/Slytherin Secondary who models Gryffindor Secondary sometimes. She uses whatever tools are at hand – but given the choice/opportunity, she likes to use the Gryffindor set of them. (Quite possibly because they were common in her family – considering how Haldar died I would say he either modeled or was Gryffindor secondary at least.)

Haleth = Gryffindor/Slytherin.

[theserpentsadvocate]

Hunthor?

You sent me three. (Three!!!!! Eeee! *flails*)

I’m going to start with Hunthor, even though he was last, because I have a better feel for him than I do for Haleth but I’m not quite as emotionally over-invested as I am in Brandir which means (hopefully?) that I can see a little clearer. And I was definitely hoping for this one.

*opens ALL THE TABS on sortinghatchat*

Hunthor’s defining trait, as I’ve always seen it, is his loyalty to Brandir. Now, Brandir both deserved and was entitled to Hunthor’s loyalty (and others’, but he only got Hunthor’s), so that loyalty could either stem from Slytherin values – this is my cousin and like hell I’m going to let you treat him like this – or Gryffindor values – this is just wrong/you don’t abandon family – or Ravenclaw ones – logically, he was right the whole time.

But given the context, I feel fairly confident saying that Hunthor is a Gryffindor primary. I read through all the descriptions, just to be sure, but I knew by the time I’d finished the first paragraph that he was a Gryffindor. “Truth begets action.”

That is what Hunthor’s defining moment is all about. It’s about him calling out Dorlas’s hypocrisy – Gryffindor primaries loathe hypocrisy. It’s about what’s true, both in an innate, Felt sense – it is wrong to speak to your rightful chieftain like that when this is not his fault – and also in a practical sense, because Dorlas is talking bullshit even from a purely factual perspective. It’s probably accurate to say that Hunthor’s Gryffindor values system includes loyalty to family as things that are inherently ‘right’; he certainly is angry with Dorlas for insulting his cousin, not just his leader, as he says, “May shame take him for his words to my kinsman,” (emphasis mine) not ‘his leader’. But if he was a Slytherin primary, he would have focused on Turin as well as Dorlas. That makes it clear that Hunthor’s main motivation is tied up in the truth part of it. It’s not about facing down the people who have hurt Brandir (although he’s not happy about that either), it’s about facing down the people who are wrong. Dorlas is making blatantly fallacious statement and slandering someone without cause and Hunthor, as a Gryffindor primary (and as one who seems to suspect Dorlas of his eventual cowardice) will not stand for that. The fact that the injured party is his cousin and his leader is important, yes – but what stings him is the hypocrisy and Felt wrongness of what is happening.

All right. Secondaries.

…I’m actually going to go with Gryffindor secondary as well. Gryffindor secondary means directness, honesty, and meeting problems head on. You’re saying nasty, untrue things? Let me rebut that loudly. My cousin shames his house by not going to fight a dragon, you say? Allow me to act as his surrogate and I will fight that dragon. Alone with Turin on the other side of the river, Hunthor is just as direct and unflinching in his dislike of and disdain for Dorlas as he would have been with someone who wasn’t one of Dorlas’s closest friends. “He’s definitely a coward and a hypocrite and I hope he suffers because he deserves it,” he says (paraphrase). He could have stopped at, “He failed the crossing,” but he didn’t. He doesn’t hide his scorn for Dorlas – it could even be argued that his words are a subtle rebuke to Turin; after all, Turin didn’t exactly contradict Dorlas’s little fit of snideness. But if it is, it’s out there. Hunthor isn’t like Brandir; he’s not capable of sitting quietly and letting things stew and being resentful. When something bothers him, he calls it out; when something’s wrong, he does whatever is in his power to fix it, even going up against Glaurung.

So yes. Hunthor: Gryffindor/Gryffindor. This is my hopefully coherent analysis. I need to find some food, and then I will take a crack at the others.

[periodicpumpkin]

Caranthir?

Caranthir is interesting; I had to work a bit backwards to figure him out.I think he’s pretty clearly a Gryffindor Secondary. He shows no interest in duplicity or scheming, and when he has something to say he doesn’t sugar-coat his words. He’s direct and doesn’t seem to mind what others think about it. I think false pleasantries are dishonest in his mind, and if he’s “quick to anger” it’s because he sees no reason to hide his feelings on a subject (because that, too, would be dishonest.)Despite his initial (and rather negative) assessment of the Dwarves, he still manages to set up a partnership with them that greatly benefits both parties. That he does this even after expressing obvious scorn for the Dwarves makes me think he must be very persuasive. His bluntness might be offensive, but he says what he means, and you always know where you stand with him. While a seemingly odd trait in a diplomat, it’s effective for him, since he and Maedhros are noted to form alliances with Men for the Union of Maedhros. That ends badly, but it shows that Caranthir gets things done.While we get a fair bit of info about Caranthir’s actions, there isn’t much about his motives or thoughts. I think he’s most likely a Ravenclaw Primary, for a few reasons.Caranthir is very independent. While the other sons of Feanor are often seen working in pairs or with their cousins, he’s often the odd one out, doing his own thing. We know little about his interests before the Darkening, which I assume means he kept to himself (and therefore no record of it would make it into the Silmarillion, since the in-universe sources wouldn’t have that info.) This implies to me that he doesn’t seek validation from others, which matches the Ravenclaw Primary’s internal “truth” and integrity.Again I think his interaction with the Dwarves is telling. He doesn’t initially like them, but he doesn’t dismiss them. His partnership with them implies choices based in rationale rather than gut instinct, another Ravenclaw Primary trait. He doesn’t need to like someone in order to respect or value them. And because he’s consistent, he doesn’t need others to like him, as long as they treat him fairly. When he encounters Men, he seems slower to judge them and quicker to propose a partnership. This shows both consistency and a willingness to accept facts even when it means admitting he’d been wrong, which matches up with the Ravenclaw Primary’s search for truth. 

[paradife-loft]

And Hyellinde?

Slytherin/Slytherin, with a Ravenclaw model.

(clearly I've spend too much time around D&D alignments, because I keep wanting to call the matching primary/secondary types "true X" a la "true Neutral" :P)

reading through the Slytherin primary page, with its emphasis on a person having their people that they're loyal to, and that being the centre of their morality, is classic Tatyar family priorities in a nutshell, and Hyellinde is no exception. this is, for example, where her chief friction with Curufin (also a Slytherin primary!) comes from -- they come into their marriage with very different circles of who their people and thus their chief loyalties are, and Hyellinde is fundamentally unwilling to subsume her own loyalties in favour of being A Feanorian. (had they not been married at such a politically tumultuous time when loyalty in this way was not quite so violently important as the centuries before the Darkening, and thus that conflict not at the forefront of their dynamic almost immediately, it's actually perfectly easy for me to see Hyellinde coming over time to view Curufin's family as part of her own circle (and Curufin likewise with Hyellinde's).) she also, of course, deeply values having the power to control her own fate, and sees herself and her family as "deserving" prominence, and hence her strong ambitions.

the little bit I've seen about "petrified" Slytherins also has shades of Hyellinde's behaviour in it, specifically with why she leaves her entire family to stay in Aman when the Noldor depart. it's not that she's been hurt to the point of refusing to place her loyalty to anybody but herself; rather that the way the rebellion takes shape, it places her loyalty to her family in direct conflict with her duty to take care of herself, which again is of fundamental importance to her. and seeing the future pain that would result, she picks herself. (incidentally, I also see her decision to let Celebrimbor choose whether to stay or leave on his own, to be a part of her notion of loyalty, too: though he's her son, her notion of doing right by him is to allow him the freedom to make his own decisions, which she stands by and values even despite it meaning she loses him herself.)

Slytherin secondary is also an easy choice for her, because adaptation to new situations, putting a new face on for every occasion that requires it to see her acquire the power and influence that will allow her to live happily and comfortably, is Hyellinde's bread and butter. the realities of the world she lives in change (e.g. the Darkening), and she will alter her public face to what's needed to ensure she not only doesn't lose, but gains. she does dislike capitalising on her status as a Feanorian's wife, but that's because it's exactly that which caused her to stay in Aman in the first place, not because she finds it untrue to her "inner self". and while, like her sister (a Ravenclaw secondary), she prefers to approach situations with planning, systems, and organisation, that's ultimately more of a useful preference than a necessity for how she deals with situations, and while Aicasáme will barrel her way through things straightforwardly, expecting obstacles to get out of the way or get trampled, Hyellinde will ultimately see them, accept their presence, and move around them, finding the angle that will allow her to turn them into her own advantages.

[ameliarating]

Finrod!

I spent way too much of last night thinking about this but I ultimately settled on Gryffindor/Slytherin. 

What Finrod values, in the abstract (that is, separate from the tangible people he cares about), is justice, to be bestowed on all people, and the ideal of doing the right thing, which he believes to be context dependent but also immutable in that the same principles should always lead to the right thing and his conscience will always guide him to that right thing. This sense of justice and fairness and doing what is owed to one's people and one's world in order to make it more perfect is a truth which drives him utterly. 

And, of course, we all know how willing he is to make the self sacrificing choices to get there. Unfortunately, in his drive, he has a hard time understanding how others he respects cannot come to these same conclusions about right and wrong and it frustrates him when people aren't willing to do the same for him that he is willing to do for them. He is crushed and bitter when his people refuse to follow him (or even support him) in his journey for Beren not because he thinks less of them but because he always had faith in his people and he doesn't understand how they could fail him and his human now - if Finrod is willing to die for them all (which would be right as leaders must sacrifice themselves for their followers), how is it that almost none of them are willing to do the same for him (which he believes would also be right as followers must be willing sacrifice themselves to protect their leader).

So Finrod can get pretty myopic on that front.

Anyways, on the Slytherin methods side, Finrod, who has been raised as a prince in a royalist environment where he has been taught since childhood about his right to rule and where has been instilled in him the value of rule and leadership - he believes that the best way to pursue justice and fairness in this world is through rule. And he trusts himself and his philosophies of rule (most of which are based in the duties a prince/king owes his subjects and the responsibilities he has to them) and he is a descendent of kings, so, obviously, he should be king.

Finrod pursues power to the point of traveling across the world to rule new lands because, as a son of the Third House, there simply isn't room in Tirion for him to rule. He is convinced that he will be a wise, good king and it is true that his people love him and are loyal, so in his mind, the power to rule is a must. To refuse power would be to abandon his people and his ideals. Much of his actions in the Silmarillion can be designed as Finrod pursuing first rule and then the ability to rule and rule well, in the hopes that he can improve this world, protect his people, and offer justice to those people in that area of land in which he rules.

The big exception, of course, are his actions once Beren confronts him with the ring and Finrod essentially abandons power and, later, any hope of reclaiming his crown in a quest he knows will be his death. But as is often the case in life and death circumstances where all pretense has been stripped away and one's ordinary methods are out of reach, one's values come to the forefront. Finrod doesn't feel he has the option of rule anymore - not when he's confronted with his Oath, which his Gryffindor side and his love for Barahir won't let him abandon. 

No longer able to turn to rule and power to pursue his values (especially once he sees Curufin and Celegorm siphon off that power and validity of his rule in their speeches to his people), Finrod leaves his ordinary methods behind and so appears in that last quest to be more of a Gryffindor/Gryffindor when, in ordinary circumstances, his methods are decidedly more Slytherin

[paradife-loft]

Curufin, obviously

what, it's like you know me or something :P

so Curufin is definitely a Slytherin/Ravenclaw. and I have Opinions about this because I normally hate putting him "traditionally" in Slytherin because I almost always see it pulling on the most shallow, surface-level, and imo unnecessarily unflattering depictions of him, and I think in the regular system he'd be in Ravenclaw.

but in this system, I really can't see him any other way. for me, Curufin's most enduring goals and desires, through the canon timeline, are simply not knowledge for its own sake, learning, information. (once upon a time, in another universe, in a post-re-embodiment fic living in my head, they are, or they could be. I think we see that side of him develop most when he's in a psychologically healthy place, which is amazing to work towards character-development-wise, but not something we actually see anywhere in the Silm canon as it stands.) what we see of Curufin's values, are plain and simple protecting the small few he cares about, going to extreme lengths do to right by their memories i.e. the Silmarils, and - interestingly enough because I very rarely tend to see characters with a lot of... shall we say empathically-transferred vicarious ambition - insistence on bringing to life some incredibly lofty goals.

and Ravenclaw secondary. "ummmm, James, he attempts a coup and tries to shoot people in the back, literally, how is that not Slytherin methods," I'm sure some of you ask, but. in my opinion, those instances are simply not representative of Curufin's main method of interacting with the world - they're extraordinary responses specifically addressing extraordinary circumstances, where his normal problem-solving preferences are unavailable due to urgent time constraints, trauma/humiliation, etc.

what it ultimately comes down to is, Curufin is a planner. he likes to have information, and control, and everything mentally organised into a useful system. indeed, he finds it difficult to function without such a system - indeed, I see his downward mental spiral through the First Age as partially spurred on by the collapse of external conditions allowing his information organisation to do anything productive. (hard to plan and strategise when you're booted out of your home repeatedly and all your people's forces stripped from you by one enemy or another, and your ability to achieve your most important goal ever is being dramatically stripped away.) but when it comes down to it, Curufin is most comfortable amassing and using information in its many forms; as a craftsperson, as a politician, as a brother advocating a position in the war against Morgoth that he finds most strategically sound. so. Ravenclaw secondary.