#tshmeta

[bctrogues]

hello! i was wondering what you thought of the bit in tsh where henry looks after richard when he gets pneumonia. why do you think he did this? what was he thinking at the time? :)

Ooh, great question!

Short answer: it was manipulation with a dash of kindness and pity, or maybe vice versa. All the elements are there, anyway.

Longer answer: I think Henry didn’t help Richard simply out of the kindness of his heart (which I imagine Henry doesn’t have all that much of, but that’s a whole other story) – although, to be fair, I think he did plan on asking Richard to stay at his place when he found out where Richard was living, regardless of whether Richard was ill at the time.  

In any case, by the time he showed up at the warehouse to see Richard, I’d imagine Henry had already been thinking about their little Argentina escape plan. And the hospital visit, as unexpected as it was, only served to help Henry in the long run in securing Richard’s loyalty. And that loyalty played an instrumental part in both the first plan to leave the country and in the second plan to murder Bunny.  

Richard being ill at the time just made swaying him over to Henry’s side a lot easier: afterwards, Richard starts to see Henry as a hero of sorts (albeit a flawed one) because Henry showed up at his darkest hour and quite literally saved his life. Which is, I think, part of the reason Richard ends up portraying him in such a favourable light* despite everything that happened before and after.  

 Then again, convincing Richard to side with them would’ve been easy in any case, considering how infatuated Richard was with all of them and how much he wanted to be a part of their group, but still.

What I’m trying to say is I do think Henry seeking out Richard during the winter break was in preparation for some kind of a plan – maybe not either of the plans Richard ended up knowing about, but a plan nonetheless. After all, Henry had by then had a hand in killing someone, and we all know he was smart enough to know he’d need all the allies he could get – just like that bit where Julian quotes Xenophon to the greek class, in troubled times it’s best to go to one’s own people for help and all that. 

xx

* as favourable a light as he can, anyway.

[bctrogues]

I always liked how "Beauty is terror' sounds but if I'm being comepletely honest, I never really understood what it means (and yes, I've read The Secret History, I guess I'm just not as good with poetry). Would you mind explaining?

Hm. I think the context explains it pretty well: whatever we call beautiful, we quiver before it; genuine beauty is always quite alarming; etc. 

The way I read it, it means that true beauty makes us uncomfortable, agitated; it excites and scares us because of the often inexplicable and/or intense emotions it evokes within us. We aren’t equipped to deal with those emotions because we are not used to them, and the unknown has always angered and terrified mankind.

I did a presentation following a similar theme for my philosophy class last year, and I spoke of how, as humans, we have an excellent sense of aesthetics and aesthetic perception, we sometimes fail to be objective when confronted with something/someone beautiful, and thus are not mentally prepared for the possibility that the beautiful thing can be dangerous or harmful, even if our instincts say otherwise. 

As an example from TSH: since Richard finds the others arresting and beautiful, he fails to see the darker sides of them until it’s too late and they’ve killed someone. And that costs him dearly. 

What it boils down to is that beauty is dangerous, because we don’t completely understand it or know how to explain it. There’s a reason there are many artworks depicting the destruction or decline of beauty; by stripping the beautiful thing of its defining characteristic, we make it into something we can understand and perceive objectively. If it remains beautiful, it means different things to different people and thus is not neat and easy to understand, and humans generally do not like complexity.

xx

[bctrogues]

Where do you think does the animal bite Charles has after the ritual come from. Or the animal he and Richard see shortly on the road? Is that some kind of symbolic thing?

Well, for the first question, I can't really say. I have nothing to go on for that one except third-hand information: Henry sees the bite, remembers it one way, months later tells Richard, who then retells the story to the reader several years later, remembering it his way. Overall, not concrete information to begin with. 

The person I bounce ideas off (also known as my mama) said it might’ve easily been one of the Hampden College Bacchae themselves. Henry is a great liar after all, and he’s the one that tells that particular story, so I wouldn't put it past him to lie to Richard point blank. Who knows how extensive the lie might've actually been? 

Maybe the whole our_bacchanal_was_definitely_a_success thing is complete bollocks and they just mowed down some poor Vermont farmer just to see if they could get away with it. Again, I wouldn't put it past them to invent the whole thing to make Richard see them in a sympathetic light rather than a condemning one. Ah, my darlings.

Anyway, as for the animal Francis and Richard almost hit with the car during the second half of the book (if that’s the part you meant?), again, I can't say what it was. A deer? Maybe. A cougar? Could be. A catlike alien? Perhaps. The president of the US dressed as a catlike creature?At this point, also a possibility. If Richard had no idea what it was then neither do I, unfortunately, because all information is filtered by him in this book.

In the end, not everything is a symbol. Sometimes things just... happen. Even in books. I mean, I can wax poetic for hours on how something or other in the book symbolizes this and that, but ultimately it’s just my personal interpretation of it. I can conclude something out of a minor, inconsequential detail that the author might not have intended to matter at all. And that’s the charm and the curse of literary analysis.

xx

[bctrogues]

hey! I just saw your The Secret History zodiac tag and I remember that it is canon in the book that 5 of them (excluding Richard) is born in the fall and the exact day of Henry's is 11th of November. :) Nice blog btw

First of all, thank you! 

And when it comes to the birthdays, I’ll have to disagree with you a bit there.

The following page and line references I have given are from the Penguin Books 1993 paperback edition (ISBN 9781400031702), otherwise known as the tragically worn, dog-eared copy I have at home.

After copious checking, I can glean exactly three facts about the characters’ birthdays from the book.

FIRSTLY: Henry was born sometime in the late autumn or early winter, most likely somewhere between late October to early December.

What should I tell you? About the Saturday in December that Bunny ran around the house at five in the morning, yelling ‘First snow!’ and pouncing on our beds? Or the time Camilla tried to teach me the box step; or the time Bunny turned the boat over – with Henry and Francis in it – because he thought he saw a water snake? About Henry’s birthday party, [...]

[pg 104, li 6-12]

but I did not find an exact date, and I wouldn't be so bold as to suggest one as Richard’s recollections are far from chronological, as he himself admits a bit earlier:

We had so many happy days in the country that fall that from this vantage they merge into a sweet and indistinct blur.

[pg 102, li 33-34]

And as for November 11th which you suggested, that’s actually Bunny’s mother’s birthday:

“I was trying to think of some way to change the subject when [Bunny] said: ‘Hey. November tenth? That’s the night you guys were out at Francis’s. The night you ran over that deer.’

“‘I don’t see,’ [Henry] said, ‘how that could be right.’

“‘It was the tenth. I remember because it was the day before my mom’s birthday. [...]’”

[pg 206, li 18-20]

Thus I have to conclude an exact birthdate for Henry is not given in the book canon.

SECONDLY: Richard’s birthday is in February, which he mentions in the epilogue.

In February, a card on my birthday – conspicuously lacking in news of Charles. 

[pg 614, li 21-22]

Again, it is impossible to get a specific date from this and, once again, there is no canon birthdate in sight.

THIRDLY: There are no canon birthdates given for Bunny, Charles and Camilla, or Francis. The narrative does not mention their birthdays at all.

If I had to guess, however, I’d say (relying on the complete lack of mentions of birthdays or birthday parties besides Henry and Richard’s) that they were all probably born in the summer or early autumn.

Richard was with them from mid-September or early October until late April or mid-May – he does not provide specific dates or even specific months, unfortunately, so I've had to make my best guesses relying on what he says of the fall period:

I was astonished. ‘I can’t drop all my classes.’

‘Why not?’

‘Registration is over.’

[pg 31, li 26-28]

and of the spring period:

I managed to get out of taking my French exams the next week, [...]

[pg 611, li 1]

Alternatively, one can argue that at least one of their birthdays could've fallen into the long winter break period, but I sincerely doubt that, because if Richard thought to mention Henry’s birthday, surely he would mention the others as well.

TL;DR: None of them have canonical, concrete birthdates from what I can find; Richard has a canonical birth-month and Henry has but a vague period in which he could’ve been born, but there are no specific dates.

xx

[bctrogues]

ok I understand nothing of zodiac signs and I'm a capricorn so I'm really curious what makes you think henry would be one, like, what traits does he have that makes you see him as one

Well again, I’m not exactly an expert here and not all Capricorns are alike, obviously, but the traits that make me qualify him as one in my opinion are:

the fact he’s very resilient, as in he fixates on a goal and eventually achieves it because he’s intent on doing something about it (re: bacchanal situation; they’d been trying for months before they succeeded and I’ll bet you a fiver the lot would’ve given up way before that if they were sans Henry. take into account the whole ‘To Kill a Cuniculus molestus’ affair as well)

similar in that vein, he’s stubborn as hell.

he’s very patient, as in he can handle his plans requiring a lot of time as long as they are completed (re: first bullet point)

he loves to work, by which I mean apply himself somehow; it doesn’t really matter if it’s by doing something like translating Paradise Lost into Latin for fun or manipulating his friends and the people around him, he’s not one to sit on his hands and do nothing if he doesn’t necessarily have to.

he’s quite straightforward. if he doesn’t like you very much, you’ll know.

he loves structure and order. one might argue that’s the slightly Roman streak in his nature but I think it can be counted here, too.

what his life’s work (if it can be called work) amounts to is the fact he wants to be something more than the people around him. granted, most people would interpret that desire as wanting to be socially or financially or morally on a higher ground, but Henry went past that and wanted to be immortal in his own way. 

I’m kind of sleepy right now so I’m gonna stop here, but if you want to read more about my interpretation of Henry (which is one of very many), I once did a character meta for him here.

xx

[bctrogues]

I see where you're coming from. I thought Richard was a Pisces because of his tendency to idealize Henry, among other things. The only thing i'd really disagree about is Francis; I don't think a Sagittarius would be as hooked on Charles as he is. sorry for annoying you with this? lmao

Mm, with Francis I sorta went with the optimism angle in that he may act as cold as he likes but he still hopes Charles wants him even if he knows he’s lying to himself. And I wouldn’t say Richard is a very imaginative person tbh but you’re entitled to your interpretation as I am to mine. No hard feelings c:

xx

[bctrogues]

I was thinking about TSH.. I'm pretty sure Henry is an Aquarius, Richard is a Pisces, Francis is a Libra and Bunny is a Cancer. I can't decide for the twins, though. Any thoughts?

I’m not really well-versed in zodiac but I’d disagree with your choices a bit if I may? 

I’d say Henry was more of an Aries or Capricorn type. 

Bun and Richard I’d switch because Bun strikes me as more of a Pisces than Richard does and vice versa. 

Francis as Libra is also kind of not exactly my choice for him, I’d say maybe Sagittarius, at a stretch. 

For the twins I’d say maybe Leo or Taurus? I’m not completely sure because they don’t exactly display all the traits I’d associate with those signs but at the same time they kind of do, so I’m not 100%. 

Again, I’m not really an expert on star sign stuff but? Hope I helped a bit somehow?

xx

[addyhanlon]

You mention in your Henry potentially-ace post about viewing Julian's group (save Richard) as mirrors of the gods. Who do you match the others up with besides Henry?

First off, I’msorry for taking so long to answer this! I was really busy :( :( :(   

Ok, now to your question! The way I mean it isthat how Richard views (and therefore establishes our relationships with Julian’sclass) can be viewed as a mirror to gods, as in – Nowadays, we “glorify” gods(sometimes lost in their aesthetic) without really taking notice (caring?) inthe horrible things they actually did. Simple things as (this a basic, lazyexample) , we have already decided Zeus’s narrative so we “run with it” even ifit’s actions contradict it –and that’s  exactly what Richard does with Julian’s class? So, the way we perceive gods (not just Greek,I guess) is actually really similar to Richard’s disjointed narrative (we can’tstand him, but don’t we all do the same?)  

I’m sure you could also read them as mirror to /actual/gods but I don’t feel as educated (I’m p. sure some people on tag will havemore valid views on this) to answer. I guess even if Camilla is compared withPersephone in Richard’s narrative that seems to represent the misconception hehas of her. The Charles/Camilla, Apollo/Artemis association seems like anobvious one (if way too easy).  I’m notsure that every single one of them is a “single” good, I think they can bevarious (or show characteristics of various of them), depending of who iswatching/interacting with them. Henry can be both Hades and Dionysius – and hisrelationship with the gods is definitely the closest one, in the end he is “stillalive” even in death, he has transcended life and is an otherworldly being –almost like a god (I think that’s the transition of his character, at least).

Sorry again!