hello it is me, the ghost of tt29, you wanna talk about me soooo bad
i see you frequently mention how you have yet to really see your interpretation/understanding of this comic portrayed and i would loooove to read you explaining and really going into it if you want to!
hi ghost of tt29. you've been living in my inbox for too long. we gotta get rid of you. (i am. so so so sorry for how long this ask has been sitting here. please still be around anon because i have!! a lot to say.)
disclaimer: despite speaking about the comic issue teen titans (2003) issue #29 i am ignoring large swaths of context & all the other shit that happens in the comic besides jason & tim's fight.
also i am writing this with the assumption that the reader has read the issue. i refuse to summarize the entire thing.
this is 2.4k words long btw so. only click the read more if you feel comfortable with what you're getting into.
quick table of contents:
canon tt29 & how it interfaces with post-crisis
fanon tt29, 'canon divergence - jason todd's attack on titan's tower'
(tangent to complain) jason & tim portrayals in general
aspects i would ideally like to have explored more
i talk about my own fic for too many words
teen titans (2003) issue #29 & jason's robin run
i think the issue itself is absolutely fascinating, given the fact that it just sort of... lies? it is so disconnected from what actually happened in jason's robin run that it almost feels like it's supposed to be intentional.
jason says he never teamed up with gar & victor - he worked with them in new teen titans (1984) issues #24-31, to deal with brother blood & rescue dick + raven + arella
in contrast he implies that he's worked with raven - this never happened on panel. during the aforementioned #24-31 they did interact, but she didn't to busy being brainwashed to "lecture him" on how he was going to get himself killed
raven also talks about how jason was always aggressive and wanted to prove himself better than all of them & batman especially. this is also just. untrue. new teen titans (1984) #20-21, his other robin-era team-up with the titans, literally had him gently telling donna that he isn't dick grayson and she shouldn't be looking towards him for leadership. he's okay with being told to stay back in #24-31, and helps take care of arella instead of demanding to be at the front of the fight. he's not aggressive!! and raven wouldn't know any of that anyway, because she was busy being brainwashed.
just. so, incredibly, astoundingly incorrect about jason's legacy as a titan and what his relationship was like with them. it's honestly impressive! but we can work with this.
in my interpretation, there are two main prongs to what jason is trying to do here: make tim prove himself as a robin, & remind the world remember that this is jason's legacy, too.
making tim prove himself? that's why jason brings up tim's privileged upbringing, and his doubts that tim was actually capable of figuring out bruce's identity, and the parallels to jason's murder. (put a pin in that 📌) he keeps calling tim by his name, instead of robin, because tim has not earned the title in jason's eyes. not yet.
the other part, about jason's legacy? personally, i don't think he meant for that to be a focus, though he does reference it--with wearing the old version of the robin costume and starting the confrontation by saying, "i was here first." but then he breaks into the memorial hall, and his statue is missing. he was objectively a member of the titans. argue with the wall. he should have a statue. he did have a memorial in titans tower east. i think he has the right to be upset. & that plays into why i think he made his mark at the end there, with the "jason todd was here."
[an aside: that was not written in tim's blood. i am partial to the red paint explanation, because blood does not dry that bright. but also i do think it was an impulsive decision by jason to leave that message at all, and as overprepared as he is i don't think he necessarily carries red paint with him everywhere. (if he does, good for him.) so. drawing it with his own blood, the beautiful, suicidal man that he is? i support it.]
i can explain why this is my interpretation in a different post, but to me that second goal is secondary. he's not really thinking about how his legacy is remembered, initially, beyond his efforts to compare & contrast his own experience with tim's.
but he is forced to confront the erasure of his legacy. he stumbles into undeniable proof that not only was his death not enough to change anything [tt29 happens only like a day or two before the climax of under the hood], it wasn't even worth remembering at all.
but on a metatextual level, it's taken a step further. he is erased, and when he isn't, his legacy is twisted. he's misremembered, and his robin run is retconned and rewritten and replaced with a version of him that never existed, one that was entirely made up to serve a narrative where he was always rotten, always destined to die, that he plays the antagonist now because there was always something wrong with him then.
tt29 is just. an incredible microcosm of this phenomenon, in its most easily observable state. and jason is perhaps one step away from realizing this has happened to his legacy, within that very comic. it's wonderful!
the ao3 tag "canon divergence - jason todd's attack on titan's tower"
now. to be clear. the comic issue is bad.
somehow, miraculously, the fanon version of it? worse.
but also i think these differences are really worth investigating! it's been a while since i've read fic entrenched in such a degree of fanon, but some of the most prominent differences are:
tim not knowing jason todd is red hood, when he already knows this in the comic
jason wearing the red hood helmet & costume, instead of ripping it away to reveal robin
tim is never even close to winning the fight, and devolves into begging and pleading vs. canon where he's shittalking jason up until he gets knocked out.
jason slitting tim's throat. does not happen in canon. often tied to this being a murder attempt. which it is not. in canon.
"replacement" - the attack is vengeance for tim stealing jason's place as robin. on occasion, jason wants robin back, when he explicitly says he doesn't in canon.
pit madness as a concept at all.
really, much of what fanon does is rewrite events so we have a very clean delineation of evil perpetrator and hapless victim. this is just… extremely not interesting. it disrespects jason's motivations & tim's competence.
but one of the things that frustrates me most about it, both fics that take place in the "fallout" of the event and the """canon divergence""" ones that happen during it is that… it makes jason's beef with tim seem way more important than it actually is.
like, no. jason's issues are with bruce, are with the existence of joker. any ill will he holds towards tim is, again, a secondary goal. The primary target of his legitimate grievances is bruce! so much of what jason argues about in the fight is ultimately about bruce. so it's… kind of alienating, when fanon acts like resolving jason's issues with tim will solve all of jason's issues with the batfam writ large.
and this is especially true in fic where the fanonized version of tt29 happens. because suddenly the reason why there's tension in jason's relationship with bruce & the batfam is not because jason kills/killed people, or anything to do with jason's death. no, jason's number one regret, the thing makes him keep his distance, is because he nearly killed tim one time :((( doesn't he feel bad for nearly killing tim that one time :(((((( it's haunting his every waking thought. how can tim ever forgive him? how can he ever forgive himself?
i don't think i even hate that the fanon exists, necessarily, i just dislike the prominence. the way it is everywhere. if i want to read about jason reconciling with bruce, i want it to be about jason & bruce.
tangent: tim drake & jason todd, and the plague of lobdell's writing
and unfortunately, the tim mattering to jason way more than he really should thing is not limited to tt29 fanon. it's kind of everywhere. lots of jason-centric fic will spend a paragraph or two talking about how smart tim is. if jason is asking for help from the batfam, tim is most commonly the first person he reaches out to.
it's in canon. it's in lobdell's n52 writing, because he got to write both rhato and teen titans and so made jason & tim team up several times more often than i would prefer. and frankly, i think this ties back to the rewriting of jason's robin era. because jason should care about bruce, and dick, and alfred, and also babs. (god. jason & babs need more canon interaction and exploration of shared themes that is not three jokers [which is also written by geoff johns, btw. he has a way of ruining my life])
i simply. do not think that jason should care about tim nearly as much as he does. i realize this is a me thing, because i do not care about tim nearly as much as jason does, but… alas.
okay. tangent done.
what do i actually want to see explored?
well. let's get that pin back down here.
📌 parallels to jason's murder
fanon likes drawing made-up parallels between ditf & tt29, with 'jason is tim's joker' type of shit. jason himself is (unfortunately) trying to draw a similiar parallel: "let me show you what the joker did to me. and let's find out how tough you really are."
so like. there is canonical basis to this. but i want to explore how jason is very much wrong about this. like. jason during his death didn't talk very much. didn't fight back, while he was getting beaten. here, in tt29, tim very much does, and he's talking shit the entire time as well. and obviously, geoff johns is using this to demonstrate that tim is the 'better' robin, but what i actually want explored is the reason why jason gave up so easily when he died.
and for that, i would point to sheila haywood. jason got betrayed by this woman that he thinks of as his mom. and everyone forgets this always!! jason didn't die because he was reckless or incompetent, it was because he trusted the wrong person. because sheila did the wrong thing.
so if we are going to compare tt29 to jason's murder, don't. slot it into the place of the murderer and the victim. i want this to be an excuse to explore where jason's head is at! i linked this meta of mine already earlier, but look at it again. use it to talk about how child vigilantes are made responsible for their own safety, instead of the adults in their lives. let's talk about how jason can acknowledge how bruce was wrong but cannot make the full connection, because of his own internalized victim blaming. make it about the thing jason monologues about at the end: how tim has a significantly more robust support system than jason did.
make it about what has changed
like. i think jason wearing the old robin costume is so so important. the fact that tim's version is darker in color, is more protective, it really speaks to a shift. something has changed. jason came back to life and everything changed and nothing has changed. the status quo has been maintained, but with subtle changes that other characters would not notice but must feel like whiplash for jason.
comics got darker, got gritter, and i think jason would be able to feel that metatextual shift. and i think he should be distressed about it! why are we making fun of jason for wearing that variation of the robin costume, when dick was also wearing it at 19? it's a cultural shift. let the characters acknowledge it!!!
make it about bruce.
just like. okay this is another repeat link but just look at this post of mine again. can we talk about this.
make it about robin the symbol. make it about the child vigilantes.
make the connection between tt29 and batman (1940) issue #408, where dick gets shot by the joker and bruce fires him from robin. connect it to how gotham thought robin was dead, before jason took up the mantle. connect it to robin (jason) dying in issue #428, only for tim to come in during a lonely place of dying to argue that robin can't die, robin is a symbol, so the mantle must be passed on. make it about steph receiving robin as a ploy to get tim to take up the mantle again.
make it about the legacy of robin, make it about the children who have been injured and killed in its colors. tim is no better than the rest of them were. jason challenges tim's right to the title in canon!! let's make him do that, but even more!! it's something worth talking about, and talking about without the constant tendency of dc editorial to glaze the shit out of tim.
frankly my thoughts on this particular aspect are a lot less well-defined than they are for the others, but. rattles the bars of my enclosure. make it about robin.
this is not a complete list. obviously. but. rattles the bars of my enclosure. there's so much to this comic. there's so much to gnaw on. i swear. it doesn't just have to be jason trying to murder tim.
but on the topic of jason murdering tim: my fic
if you are reading all of this and dismissively thinking that if i want someone to explore this so bad, then i should be the one to write it, well. haha. i literally am.
TOWER, TUMBLING is in many ways my magnum opus on tt29 and related comic issues + paratext. it's not done, obviously, and it's been so long working on it at this point that it's not perfectly aligned with my vision anymore, but it is the closest i or anyone have ever gotten to my vision.
i am going to reemphasize that canonical tt29 was not a murder attempt. and i know this. and i will die on this hill. but jason did need to kill tim for the plot in that fic. so. :)
this is ridiculously long, so if you got to the end of it… good job! proud of you! i could probably have gone on longer, but i do have finals to study for so… perhaps i can continue this discussion another time.
