#turtlethon

[turtlethon]

There was also a mention of a "Gold Trumpet tower" building you mentioned in "Dontatello Trashes Slash", implying there may be a "Trumpet" businessman, to join McDonald Crump, Donald J. Lofty, Fenton Q. Hackenbrush and AJ Howard.

PS: Let me know if you have my other asks and are working on answering them or aren't interested?

Apologies for the delay, I've been overwhelmed with other projects and will have to be selective about what I can answer at the moment - and some questions I just honestly don't have a good answer for, but let me have a stab at this one!

We discussed in the past how the show would be improved by consolidating all the under-developed gangster and mad scientist characters into just one of each archetype, and I think you could do the same for a lot of these guys. It's the kind of thing that, if more time had been spent developing the world around the Turtles early on, there really would have been a case for, but as I've written about previously there was clearly a feeling that the show has to keep focus on the Turtles themselves at all times, and on the action unfolding in the present moment. Outside of the Channel 6 crew (and even that's being generous), TMNT '87 really isn't interested in doing anything in the long term with anyone outside of the dozen or so main recurring characters. At least not until the Red Sky years, when there seems to have been a recognition that the show's audience was getting older and the storytelling needed to age up with them.

With that said, I think if the show's approach had been more like S8 from the outset, you could have one character who fills this Trump expy role throughout, who's responsible for a lot of the big, often regrettable business developments the Turtles encounter over the course of the series. I'm conflicted as to whether the portrayal of such a character leans towards wealthy doofus (like Crump or Lofty) or the actively hostile business mogul (Howard) - maybe they begin like the former and are gradually revealed to be more like the latter, as the Turtles invariably happen to be on the scene trying to save the day whenever their assorted business blunders are unfolding.

[turtlethon]

I very vividly remember reading about a David Wise episode where it was mentioned by the Turtles in the beginning that they had proof that Hamato Yoshi was framed by Oroku Saki for his actions against the Foot Clan and Shredder wanting to steal it.

Do you remember that episode, I'm trying to find it?

That would be The Missing Map!

[turtlethon]

With AJ Howard, I wonder if there's more to his mutant self hidden under a latex disguise or if he has a slug head with a normal body? The statue of his mutant form indicated his slug self was at least relatively human in shape, so I'm gonna assume he still has legs and fingers under the disguise, even if they're slimy.

As for J. Gordon Hungerdunger, I feel you could turn him into a playmates figure if you mutate him; undoubtably into a western setting animal like a Buffalo. Though then again that might be creeping into Cowboys of Moo Mesa's territory.

PS: The writers of the Dirk Savage episode sure knew the future when they did a plot of a powerful land mogul with his own tower persecuting minorities for his own power play!

I suppose Hungerdunger wouldn't even need to be a mutant animal to make it into the toy line, sometimes there are figures in there who appear conventionally human but every aspect of their look is turned up to 11 (like Tattoo or Pizzaface). Just make him the rootin'-est, tootin'-est guy ever, give him a comically oversized removable 50-gallon hat that's almost as big as he is, make his moustache as wide as his entire body, take that dollar sign bolo tie thing he had going on and make it a big chromed piece, go all-out.

(It's a shame that the flow of traffic in TMNT at the time seemed to go mostly one-way, we got a lot more characters introduced into the show who were created for the toy line than the other way around. Occasionally we'd get a highly requested figure like Mona Lisa and I still think it's incredible that in time they got around to sort-of doing both Super Rocksteady and Mighty Bebop, but the cartoon is full of characters and vehicles that would have made great toys, that just didn't happen - I'm tempted to compile a list, actually!)

Howard kind of got the worst of it from both sides: the requirement for his mutation to be a twist revealed halfway through his only episode meant his backstory was inevitably going to be underdeveloped, and he didn't receive a satisfactory exit. It can't have helped that he had to share screen time with Dirk Savage, plus all of the guest mutants. Maybe the Dirk Savage ep was another one from season seven that would have been better served by being a multi-part show. And yeah, something about him feels... almost like a quasi-mutation rather than a full one, closer to cat lady April rather than someone like Baxter whose transformation would be impossible to conceal. (That's actually something in itself that could be explored if things weren't so constricted: he calls himself the greatest mutant of all time, and maybe the rationale for his hate campaign was rooted in him convincing himself he's not like the other mutants. Behind the mask, he can continue to mingle in high society and act as if nothing had changed, a privilege not afforded to the people he's attacking.)

The comparison to Trump is well-observed, and something I didn't pick up on while writing about the episode. Howard is probably about as close as you could get to just putting Ross Perot in the show as a slug-man without risking legal action; giving him Richard Nixon's voice comes across as an obfuscation to be able to say he's not intended to represent any one person. But yeah, the tower named after himself and its gold interior suggests there was always a little of Trump in his NY property mogul era mixed in there too. Something that I didn't know until I was doing research to write the Dirk Savage Turtlethon entry was that Perot initially polled strongly in the 1992 presidential campaign before falling off. Trump basically borrowed his whole "I'm a successful man of industry, put me in the White House and I'll run it like a business" schtick from him, but had the advantage of not running as a third party candidate.

So I guess AJ Howard deserves at least an honourable mention as yet another Trump stand-in alongside McDonald Crump, Donald J. Lofty, Fenton Q. Hackenbrush, and in the UK Hero Turtles comics, Ronald Bump. There's probably more of these across the wider spectrum of TMNT media that I haven't discovered yet - it seems that wealthy buffoon / unscrupulous real estate kingpin / blustering con-man worked well as a foil for the Turtles at the time.

[turtlethon]

Hi there!! I’m such a big fan of your reviews, you did a great job with them!! 😄

My biggest questions would be;

Who’s your favorite turtle? And if you had to choose just five episodes from the series, which ones would be your all time favorites? 😁

Thank you!! Have a great day!!

Thank you so much for the kind words! For the record, I'm Team Donnie, always a big fan of the inventor/scientist archetype. (Also my favourite colour is purple, so he gets an extra point right there.)

I feel like when it comes to picking the top five episodes the natural inclination is just to pick the first five, and with good reason; nothing that came after S1 had as much time, care or money afforded to it. So just to make things interesting, I'm going to set everything from season one aside and pick five more episodes that I think also deserve to be celebrated.

5. THE DIMENSION X STORY

The Turtles having to fight their way into the Technodrome (and back out again) somehow never fully lost its allure. This one and "Shredder's Mom" both rank highly in my estimation, and while this is the less visually impressive of the two I think it wins out for how willing it is to mix things up, sending the Channel 6 regulars to Dimension X while two of the Turtles remain behind. Wild, far flung adventures that tap into the more sci-fi aspects of TMNT, and the cherry on top is that this is easily Vernon's best episode - it turns out he's more interesting as April's rival when he's doing well and she has to work to regain the upper hand.

4. THE NINJA SWORD OF NOWHERE

This one gets few points for innovation - Shredder and his crew jostling with the Turtles for control of some ancient magical artifact or high-tech invention is standard stuff for season three, and in this case, it's a dimension-hopping ninja sword. But rarely, if ever, has it been done this well. Splinter and Shredder battling in dimensional limbo is great, and the animation team handling this one really went above and beyond. Ninja Sword of Nowhere almost feels like it should have been held up as a textbook example of what a Turtles episode circa 1989/90 should be, a reference point that could be shown to writers or animators for what the show should be trying to acheive.

3. SPLINTER VANISHES

The intended 100th episode, even if it didn't turn out that way, and one that I remember feeling like a big deal while watching it as a kid that still held up upon revisiting it as an adult. I always know it's a really good ep when writing the entry for it takes hours as I agonise over it, trying to make sure I articulate everything I want to get across to the best of my ability, and I remember dwelling on this one for a looong time, thinking about how the story compels the Turtles - and us - to consider what happens when the adventures end, when it's time to grow up and move on. Probably the most emotionally resonant episode of TMNT '87, and even though Splinter does not come across well by the end of it, the journeys we go on with each of the Turtles as they explore their post-hero lives easily outweigh that. The fact that "Splinter Vanishes" accomplishes all of this and is a non-Shredder episode - when let's face it, they're more often than not filler shows - makes it all the more remarkable.

2. SHREDDER TRIUMPHANT!

I have mixed feelings about the show continuing into the Red Sky era because this episode, the season seven finale, felt like it had brought TMNT '87 to its natural end point. I love how it plays upon the sense that the Turtles (and the viewers) have that they've seen and done this all a million times before, and it quickly becomes apparent that this time things are different, that finally Shredder and Krang are competent and have learned from all their previous losses, setting the stage for one final showdown. All the main characters - the Turtles, Splinter, the Technodrome regulars and the Channel 6 crew - get their chance to shine and show how they've grown over the course of the show's run. A milestone episode for sure.

1. TURTLES ON TRIAL

I think for me this is still The One, the single episode outside of the first season that I'd consider peak TMNT. It's also the first episode I remember seeing on TV, which I think set me up to have entirely unrealistic expectations about how good Turtles would be; fortunately the rest of the run was still a good time even if we never quite got here again.

I like to see my heroes really have to go through the wringer, to have everything thrown at them and somehow just about make it out victorious, and so the environment we see the Turtles forced to contend with here, a city full of people who have been conditioned to be actively hostile towards them, while they're also dealing with the usual Shredder/Krang stuff, makes for compelling television. Yes, Clayton Kellerman and "On Trial" are a perfect encapsuation of the media landscape at the time - which still feels relevant today - but on top of that this is a gorgeous episode with some terrific battles between the Turtles and Shredder's bunch. It's simply the bee's knees. (Or should that be the turtle's knees?)

[turtlethon]

Did you ever hear about the shows Japanese dub, I read there were two but the long and really popular one was the TV Tokyo dub which used a lot of big voice actors and added a lot of localized humor.

That’s also the one that got a two part OVA parodying anime like Saint Seiya (the super mutations are supposed to look silly). Makes me wonder if a new TMNT developed in Japan could work?

I'm vaguely aware of the existence of the Japanese dubs, more so the TV Tokyo one. The most interesting thing about that to me is that they abruptly stopped at "Donatello's Badd Time", which in retrospect is a shame because I think the show's depictions of Japanese characters and settings actually got better later on - especially in "The Legend of Koji". You can tell at that point that David Wise was making a real effort to fix up a lot of the Foot Clan lore that was almost an afterthought in the early days of the cartoon. (Also, in a wider sense, for fans in that market to have missed out on the show's season seven upswing is unfortunate, they really got a raw deal.)

The OVAs are something I really should have covered at some point, they seem like ideal material for Turtlethon Extra Slices, and maybe I will eventually. I often hear fans talk about them as a missed opportunity and lament that they'd like to see a real TMNT anime in some shape or form, one that's more focused on the source material. That might be more viable now than it's ever been, given that Paramount/Viacom could use some easy wins at the moment and seem to be open to licensing the IP to just about anyone, the simple thing to do is let some external party handle the production while they enjoy the royalty fees; if it turns out to be a disaster they can always distance themselves from it on the basis that it wasn't an in-house production.

[turtlethon]

The other one is much later in the show's run, in "Dirk Savage: Mutant Hunter", when we learn that Shredder continued to experiment on innocent people, over a period of years, to the point where there were so many mutants running around town that a politician could run on an anti-mutant campaign platform.

Do you remember exact dialogue on that? I watched that episode recently and the only thing I remember was that Tokka & Rahzar were stated to be the result of the Shredder experimenting on Zoo Animals, which I assume to be a reference to the Groundchuck and Dirtbag episodes.

As for the other mutants like the Giraffe lady and mutant bird, I assumed they weren't Shredder experiments but just people or animals that got hit by carelessly placed mutagen during the show's shenanigans rather than deliberate experiments.

Also I feel Baxter Stockman's harsh treatment from Shredder and Krang may have been because he was something of an outsider; being coerced into working for them and once trying to betray the Shredder. Rocksteady and Bebop's gangs were thugs that had been working for them to begin with, so I feel they'd get better treatment.

Upon reflection (and going back and watching the opening of the Dirk Savage ep again) I think you're right: the intent seems to be that the events in the zoo during the Turtleoids special have led to the creation of subsequent mutants over a period of a few years. I'm many months removed from watching the show at this point, so I was basing that on what I wrote at the time and my already potentially fuzzy recollections.

Regarding Shredder and the gang (and by extension, Krang/Baxter) I think where you stand on Shredder's willingness to undo their mutations probably depends on how evil you interpret him to be...

This Shredder is presented as a credible ninja master and criminal mastermind, and is the one who mutated the gang members...

This Shredder is considerably less capable, to put it mildly, and if we're being honest more in-line with how he's presented for the bulk of the series. Outside of his feud with Splinter and the Turtles, his desire for world domination seems to be entirely rooted in his own vanity and self-aggrandizement.

His villainy/competence isn't a binary thing IMO, I think it can be charted on a spectrum depending on the era of the show and who's writing, but as a trend it keeps nudging into ineffectual goofball gradually up to the beginning of season eight, when it dramatically swings back in the opposite direction.

On that basis, I think the likelihood of Shredder undoing the mutations of the gang and letting them go depends on which point in the show it actually happens. If we're assuming it's in the window between S1 and S2 then maybe not, but after the S2 opener the way he's presented changes considerably and he seems to be borderline subservient to Krang rather than the two of them being in a fifty-fifty partnership. At that point I could see him just releasing the gang on the basis that he has enough to deal with, and doesn't need them hanging around.

In regards to Krang (and his attempted vaporizing of Baxter), I've long been of the opinion that as an alien warlord he likely places little value on human life, but I kind of like the idea that the presence of Shredder, Rocksteady & Bebop in the Technodrome softens him a bit and prevents him from being a total monster, in part because their incompetence invariably scuppers all of his plans and stops him doing any significant harm in the end. It's notable that he ordered Baxter's execution while Shredder, Rocksteady and Bebop were all on Earth, and there was no-one around to reason with him; I don't know if I'd go so far as to say they serve as his conscience, but, y'know... something like that!

[turtlethon]

Whilst I actually like the Red Sky seasons (though feel they aren't perfect), do you think its interesting that Titanus and Carter don't appear to be animal mutants? I wonder if that's due to a change in the show's tone or unintentional?

PS: Let me know if sending too many asks is overwhelming and I'll slow down.

My initial impulse is to assume that would have stemmed from trying to reshape the show to more closely resemble X-Men, but honestly I think by that point they had long since lost any grasp on what the in-universe rules were supposed to be around mutation, and any fantastical comic book hero and villain types that seemed like they might work were considered fair game. (There were probably always weird nerdy kids like me watching who were continually frustrated every time the show contradicted its own rules, but I imagine our numbers had dwindled considerably by 1994.)

Regarding asks: I might not get around to answering them all immediately, but I'll do my best! I'll have to try and be a little more succinct and curb my tendency to write essays or I'll never get through these, LOL.

[turtlethon]

Personally on the fate of Rocksteady and Bebop, assuming they weren't with Shredder and Krang (given Mung only retrieved those two, its possible the two mutants were still with them in Dimension X), I like to imagine they stayed mutants.

Outside of Landlord of the Flies, Rocksteady and Bebop seem to consistently like being mutants unlike alot of human born mutants, which I feel is unique. Also with the exception of Bebop's (or perhaps Rocksteadys?) mention of their mutation scaring their mother, it seems the gang's social circle were all people that wouldn't mind them being mutants.

The idea of Rocksteady and Bebop finding something to do in dimension x is also interesting.

fanfiction.net/s/6481997/1/The-Long-Road

I don't know if you like fanfiction, but there's a well written one called the Long Road that manages to capture the spirit of the show I'd argue.

We see that with Splinter and the Turtles too, where as the show progresses they wind up appreciating the benefits of their mutations and broadly seem to abandon any pining they might have had for their situation to be different. I touched on this in the entry for "Splinter Vanishes" but the idea of what happens when the show is over and everyone has to move on is something I find fascinating - I think that's why the glimpses we get into future timelines are so intriguing, and also why the events of "Get Shredder!" are initially so exciting - after years of everyone running on the spot, so to speak, there's a sense that things are changing at last.

Agreed on Rocksteady and Bebop: they generally seem to be portrayed as being in their element as mutants. I think by the end of their time on the show they've made their peace with their current forms and in all likelihood wouldn't go back; also by the time you get to the Red Sky era the world as it is in TMNT has changed so much, and I imagine as time progresses people are going to have to come to terms with the fact that mutants (and aliens, and other fantastic creatures) just live among them, that's their reality now. On that basis, if Rocksteady and Bebop break off from Shredder there's little incentive for them to want to turn back to how they once were.