F&B makes it abundantly clear that Aemond was a DISASTER both as a ruler and military commander, his initiatives were petty, sadistic, idiotic, ineffective and did nothing to get even remotely close to a victory in the war. His cold-blooded murder of Lucerys provoked the Blacks into all-out war, as well as causing Daemon to send assassins after Aegon II’s children, as Prince Regent, he spent much more time leading his army against the Blacks or launching raids in the Riverlands instead of actually managing things in King’s Landing, and his obsessive quest for Daemon in the Riverlands is what left King’s Landing free for Rhaenyra’s successful siege. His storming off to lay waste to the Riverlands to sooth his wounded pride after learning of King’s Landing’s fall left Criston Cole and his army to make their own way back to the capital, and without Vhagar to give some aerial protection, Cole and his army were worn down by ambushes, desertion, and fatigue before finally being annihilated at the Butcher’s Ball. And his extermination of House Strong might have been a deciding factor in Larys Strong turning on Aegon II when it became clear the war was over for the Greens.
During the Conquest, Visenya was an invaluable tool for the Targaryen cause: her handling of the Crackclaw Point men represented a clever recognition of Crackclaw Point’s independent streak and a turning of that streak to the Targaryens’ advantage, while her actions in the Vale showed that she understood the value of diplomacy, albeit a sort of dragon diplomacy, when traditional warfare would not suffice. Aegon trusted Visenya enough to manage the capital while he and Rhaenys warred in Dorne, and the lack of reported dissent or trouble on the home front during this time speaks to Visenya’s skill as an administrator. Her creation of the Kingsguard likewise demonstrates a remarkably both practical and symbolically potent solution to a real problem, an obvious flaw in security around the monarch, while her first seven selections embodied the ideals she sought in her guard and proved her decision correct by “serv[ing] to the end of their days with honor”.
The only similarities between Visenya and Aemond are Vhagar, the use of violence (practical and not unnecessarily cruel in Visenya’s case) and the fact that Aemond murdered his nephew (and I actually don’t even believe Visenya murdered Aenys).
I'm a bit confused as to why some people say Rhaenyra idealized Visenya? Because she wore the same hairstyle and wanted to name her daughter after Visenya? I think Rhaenyra didn’t even know anything about Visenya’s hairstyle, it’s unlikely that she was told about it in the lessons, it was information for the author of asoiaf portraits.
Rhaenyra had no interest in martial arts (at least she didn’t practice it), she loved music, feasts, beautiful dresses and jewelry, courtship and handsome men, she loved being a mother and even though she married Daemon in the valyrian tradition, she still had some respect before the seven on personal level, otherwise she would not have forced her sons to swear solemn oaths upon a copy of The Seven-Pointed Star. It wasn't made for public, but for her peace of mind that they would be in safe. We know that Mysaria drove Rhaenyra crazy, so we can’t say how she felt about dark magic as a child, but I think she wasn't interesed in it anyway, but Visenya, as some said, dabbled in dark sorceries.
I think that she could associate herself in some way with Visenya, since she was the elder sister and she ruled the seven kingdoms almost on a par with her brother and had no less rights than he did (there is a whole huge theory that she actually ran everything, but it is not in english language), and the order of succession from this point was somewhat messy, but not more than that.
*EDITED POST* (1/5/24)
We know that she wore her hair like Visenya through the So Spake Martin site HERE. That is what anon refers to.
To be honest, when I first read F&B and GRRM's description of Rhaneyra and her love for Visenya, I wondered what she found so inspiring, not because Visenya is incapable of being inspiring to anyone, but because I didn't parse out the appeal.
But once you look at the Dance through a feminist lens AND just reread it, it became very obvious to the point that I felt like slapping myself.
A)
Why wouldn't Rhaenyra know about Visenya's braid? Visenya was literally one of the Queens who implemented a whole new institution that the Westerosi monarchy still has today: the Kingsuard.
She conquered parts of Westeros alongside her brother-husband.
She is the one who flew up the Vale (Rhaenyra's mother Aemma's home region, which Rhaenyra's sigil incorporates into her own war banner [look below]) and got Queen Sharra to surrender the Vale.
All of this is recorded as well as all 3 of the conquerors' appearances, which is the simplest and most trustworthy note one can see in a record because it is a basic observation. We do not really have the beginning of the excuse of appearance until later when Baelor I orders the burning of books at the Citadel, two generations after Rhaenyra.
Visenya saw herself as a protector of the Targ legacy/dynasty/family (as Daemon does) and Rhaenyra admires her for that as well as being a woman aware of and unapologetic about her own abilities and "oppositional" womanhood to the Andal ideal of subservient and demure womanhood. That singular purpose is compelling to Rhaenyra and people in the fandom because it is, as I said, unapologetic but also focused and passionate all at the same time. Visenya, ironically, takes on some traits of Andal knighthood that you and I know Rhaenyra admires: the warrior's devotion proven through the warrior's sword. Again, while being a woman (subversive)! She wasn't incompetent in politics, either, despite what people will say about her & Maegor--yes, Aenys was too weak for their needs!
It's an exciting & self-affirming thing to witness when you live in that sort of society.
Plus, Rhaenys dies young and Visenya, who outlives her AND their brother-husband, just gets to do more. There is more material for a young Rhaenyra to explore and find her inspiration/female role model.
It's not about "Oh, she was good with a sword" and finding superficial traits to relate to. Rhaenyra may have been proud, loved to dress up, and showed her status through clothes to assert her status in the face of those trying to reduce it and as just how aristocrats do, was "hyper femme", but her psychosocial development wasn't as simple as some like to think. And these traits and behaviors are not in themselves indicators of frivolity, stupidity, or inherent femininity & womanhood--the last so much as socially coded femininity and womanhood.
In the pool of people who prefer and admire Visenya over her sister Rhaenys, some of them are people who do not feel comfortable with the idea of using any sort of martial skills or violence. They might say to you that if they had been born in a medieval society, they would not want to pick up a sword and fight in battles or become someone's guardswomen/men even if they were able to. Or become a fencer or something. They'd probably think they'd be more scholars or politicians or spiritual/philosophical thinkers, artists, playwrights, or "reformers" if they went back in time.
But they admire Visenya over Rhaenys because Visenya is all of those things PLUS her self-confidence & blatant claim/use of power with no shame or trepidation that they wish they could access or have allowed for them--as Visenya comes from a lineage and culture that is less violent and restrictive against women than Andal culture. OR Visenys embody that spirit they have in themselves but prefer to direct into nonwarrior/militant pursuits.
Even with Valyrian culture/society not being as egalitarian about gender and sexuality as the Rhoynish culture. BUT she also is blatantly the type of person to fully take advantage of this background and live in her own power. She is the fulfillment of autonomous, competent, and powerful womanhood-subsumed-under-personhood.
B)
1.
You: "[...] she still had some respect before the seven on personal level, otherwise she would not have forced her sons to swear solemn oaths upon a copy of The Seven-Pointed Star. It wasn't made for public, but for her peace of mind that they would be in safe."
Even if Rhaenyra was publicly OR sincerely of the Faith as her father was, there is always going to be contention between faith in the Faith and being a Targ for her. All Alicent and other non-Targ women (noble or otherwise) have had since childhood--as a well of knowledge and guide to self-esteem or awareness--is the Faith and its teachings about gender, marriage, violence, motherhood, sexuality, etc.
Simultaneously, all noblewomen/royal women can exhibit more of an intellectual remove from the Faith's ideologies as absolute, sincere "truths" of reality than common-born women, because as noble women, they are more complicit and active in the machinations or politics that their male relatives and spouses lead. Or they advise them.. Or they themselves lead projects, wars, etc either not long after obtaining power or/and learning from thise male relatives' actions or their private observations. (post by mononijikayu) :
it is within the narrative to say that both in the east and in the west, power derives from the familial structure and that women were the leading figures that maintained these close, familial ties—from marriage, blood ties, and even friendships. these structures of close power proximity in early medieval life tell us that women are trusted with the growth of their family’s influence.
mothers and wives advising the men around them are lauded because they speak to determine what’s best for the family. it is why we see women like olga of kiev influence her son in terms of policies that allowed religious freedom and goodwill with other christian nations that surrounded the territory of rus to flourish and develop. this was seen as a means to further what rus is and the standing of her own family within the state they governed.
Either way, these witness with their own eyes that their authorities or other adults (parents, older siblings, cousins, etc., even some maesters) understand, shape, and define the contours of power and identity and learn their methods. They'd definitely learn how those with power, or seeking it, use and twist the Faith's teachings for their own use. Thereby disillusioning, revealing, or making them sense of the Faith's teachings AS inventions instead of absolute truths...to some. Women of this class can see religion as a political tool in itself, just as Cersei and Jaehaerys I do. This doesn't mean that many will not continue to believe in the actual religion, though, as with Alicent or Catelyn or Brienne.
Rhaenyra herself has her sons swear by the book before their envoy missions yes. None of this actually means that she was as devoted to the religion as Alysanne or Alicent. Nor does it mean that she didn't see how the institution subtly and unsubtly has in the past, continues to in the present, and will continue to undermine her & her family's overall right to rule in the future. Because again, its teachings are very anti-female rulership, anti-dragons, and at its cultural-historical core, anti-Targ. It is rather her acknowledging & using the Faith's influence in the psychosocial framework of her society & family to inspire her sons to take their mission seriously and follow her directions. If only to compel them to show how well they take oaths/the Faith seriously to any/all who witnessed this swearing for both her sons, her own, & their entire section of the family's reputation. Kill two birds with one stone.
Visenya takes it upon herself to publicly (no sneaking around or attempt at subtlety over a decade or so, like Alicent, which isn't the superior tactic, it's just circumstance & resources) crown her son over her sibling's grandson and consistently vocalize her disapproval of Aenys' actions regarding the Faith, itself and institution that Rhaenyra would have had experienced supplying the rhetoric and rationale for why she shouldn't rule as a woman. There is a certain release of inner tension or stress just seeing & imagining that an admired past family relative also sees & treats the Faith as a threat specifically to them AS WELL AS to the dynasty. See how they dealt with them, learning from them & their successes or mistakes. It's very personal and intimate, this connecting.
2.
The Faith religion--as opposed to the institution, but eh--and a lot of its teachings cannot be fully eradicated w/o eradicating the sociopolitical system of feudalism as they know it because the Andals came and assimilated into FM culture or conquered swathes of "Westerosi" lands way, way before the conquerors actually set their eyes on Westeros. It is inside the psychological/sociopolitical framework of the "Westerosi" society even when they were separate kingdoms, like the proto-English kingdoms of Mercia, Northumbria, East Anglia, etc. all sharing a specific religion and various Anglo-Saxon practices and ideals, yet simultaneously warring against each other for years.
The Faith institution--meaning its Septons and its hierarchy & cultural authority--has always been the main antagonizer of the Targs and their rival for dominance over Westerosi culture and society. As I said before, Rhaenyra herself grew up expecting to rule and had always felt she deserved to rule and continue her family's legacy.
In order to rule Westeros, the Targs basically decided to capitulate some. Though they had dragons and won the war, to actually rule a conquered place with many grumbling and possibly vengeful people and expect to maintain a dynasty for many generations, one has to have a stabler base while diminishing as much as possible the use of violence. Again, once one has already used violence and warfare to conquer said regions.
Maegor's battles with the Warrior's Sons and Poor Fellows were too direct an attack against the Faith and were seen as him being tyrannical. He flouted political monogamy and didn't even try to use subtler tactics to destabilize the Faith's/High Septon's word and acclimate the Westerosi public to his marriages + suppress the lesser backlash so he could be safer/freer to marry more than once. Jaehaerys I created a sort of compromise with the Faith through his use of several septons and septas to spread the Doctrine of Exceptionalism after Maegor's death and his own troubles with the Faith. AND by affirming male primogeniture both inside his family and in the public event of the GC of 101. Yet NEITHER of these men thought of ways or thought it worth it to try to think of ways to both destabilize the Faith AND incorporate women into their plans or seek to make their female relatives their partners. Trying to make use of the growingly smaller and smaller window of opportunity the conquerors opened for female leadership by working with their female relatives to gain more agency or ceding power to them to diminish the sense of female unfitness to rule. Rather, they even thought to suppress female leadership and personal agency as much as possible for their own claims.
The problem with that was now the Targs had a much smaller pool of possibly capable candidates for rulership and it encouraged resentment, emotional disconnection, misunderstandings of character or perception, & further abuse--which breeds disunity, internal distrust, and infighting.
How can you sit and think of ways to consolidate power for your house (or do it with full confidence and therefore produce more, innovative ideas) if you know or suspect that you will be ignored sidelined, or abused for doing exactly that? Not every girl/woman can continue to fight and resist such an uphill battle, and really that is what misogyny hopes for, and works toward. If most of what you think/feel from childhood (or what you experience) into adulthood is how your father, brother, sons, etc. wronged you--or if you realize even later in life all this and you contend with them as Rhaena and Alysanne did--then how can you really want to fully think about ways to be an untied front that collaborates together for the better of the entire house/family/unit?
We even see how much better it would have been for ALL women and children if Alysanne had just been as able as Visenya and Rhaenys to pass laws (and have them stick): the water in KL, girls being allowed into the Citadel, the abolishment of the right of first night and women's courts. To exclude and abuse nearly half of your population of the house is actually idiotic and unpragmatic. It comes back to bite eventually because no one/group can take constant oppression for very long, even if it takes a couple of generations (slavery rebellions, and not just in the U.S.). Yes, she manages to get Jaehaerys to agree by persistence...but again, is it really entirely her fault that her brother-husband didn't care about her ideas until she had to force him to listen, or have Septon Barth back her up?!
And Daemon and Viserys no doubt loved each other, but Viserys distrusted his own brother by:
not understanding Daemon's aims when he "acted out", seeing them as just rebellious/threatening to his own authority
thinking he had to please and make those outside of the family and mimicking Jaehaerys' policy of conciliation through his parties; displays of wealth and prosperity (that Alysanne and Jaehaerys are actually responsible for); and sticking his fingers into his ears when true conflict erupted between his family members
While he did confirm her position as the heir to the throne multiple times in the boo AND have Rhaenyra listen in on council meetings as she served as his exclusive cupbearer so she could familiarize herself and learn some ways a ruler can address and organize sociopolitical/economic needs, he also refused to:
stop impregnating Alicent. One boy wasn't enough for man to have AND a worry for Rhaenyra, his own chosen heir?! It's giving Rogar Baratheon and Alyssa Baratheon.
keep Otto out of the council
directly address the anger, entitlement, and plotting Alicent, her kids, and her faction had (and I say he knew that she was plotting at some level bc he himself said that Alicent only wanted Aegon to marry Rhaenyra so Aegon could be closer to having the throne)
not marry Rhaenyra off to a gay man instead of vowing to have her children with someone else marry a Velaryon or Velaryon scion
actually, make use of his brother and what he's capable of (that protectiveness he displayed at the GC), and marry him to his daughter to both make Daemon even more devoted to Rhaneyra's cause--bc if you truly think that he would undermine her or yourself, what better way to reduce that than by marrying her to him when you decide she is marriageable--AND working towards reinforcing her authority over his own before you die?! If you/he actually thought Daemons' actions were so rebellious instead of coming from feelings of disrespect?
ETC.
The point is that between brothers/two men we see how a refusal to listen to another in the family can affect a family. How much more when one of the parties is an abused or sidelined woman? And generation after generation who themselves are reading the long history of this fact as Dany has her entire Targ legacy back in Essos?! How does that affect a young Targ girl-older woman, to internalize the whittling of their agency & to not be able to dream bigger for themselves other than select roles of mother-wife-dowager?
C)
You: "We know that Mysaria drove Rhaenyra crazy, so we can’t say how she felt about dark magic as a child, but I think she wasn't interesed in it anyway, but Visenya, as some said, dabbled in dark sorceries."
Mysaria didn't drive Rhaenyra into her entire spiel of "madness"--which was not really "madness" but grief, elitism, and paranoia making her default to extreme self-defense. Rhaenyra had no known or recorded delusions or hallucinations and she was fully aware of her surroundings, she didn't perform absurd displays of cruelty. (If there were hallucinations like with Aerys--plus with how she is a woman and this text seeks to undermine her for it--they definitely would have found evidence of her going through that and emphasized or exaggerated it to make a point.)
Later-Rhaenyra is still not on par with Aerys II, who was actually driven slowly so mad from paranoia that he wanted to use wildfyre to destroy KL, had elaborate executions to mutilate people or drew out their pain and humiliated them before death with and without said substance, wasn't fully aware of how others perceived him and his appearance, was so out of it that he let his nails & hair grow too long, etc.
Mysaria gives her false information and triggers her final paranoid act, directing her already existing paranoia to Nettles & Daemon. But she does not inspire the actual paranoia. That came from the betrayal of Hugh and Ulf, the betrayal of the council people at the green council, her children's violent and painful deaths, the suddenness of her father's death compounded with her need to immediately answer the greens (inability to properly mourn him), the greens' usurpation, etc. One not taking long to follow the others.
And as I said above, actual magic and Rhaenyra's interest or disinterest in it had nothing to do with her admiration for Visenya. There isn't even any indication that Rhaenyra was interested in magic for herself, her accusations of magic against Nettles was purely driven by her desire to claim back some power she thought she lost.
Of course, none of this proves that she was totally against the Faith or was atheist or agnostic. What it indicates, however, is that she was not as devoted to, deferential of, or "respectful" of the religion as you may suspect.
The argument that Visenya would’ve loved the Greens because she was a ‘usurper’ is so funny because what she always prioritized was the strength of her house. She founded the Kingsguard to protect her brother, gave Aenys the best advice, even offered to do the dirty job. The Greens are the reason her house lost their power and dragons.
Visenya didn’t put Maegor on the throne for funsies, she wanted her house to remain strong and powerful and only somebody like Maegor, a necessary evil, could’ve dealt with Westerosi bullshit which he did.
Referring to this post.
Visenya was also:
rumored to practice blood magic
wanted to burn down the Starry Sept 2x
a woman who used a sword quite comfortably, etc.
Neither woman would appeal to each other. I honestly don't know if either, too, would be able to hide their suspicion (both) or disdain & & fear (Alicent) or their cool indifference (Visenya), which would make things worse. And Alicent, of the two, would likely take the quickest offense.
Alicent also was the leader of a bunch of incompetent children, and Visenya seemed the type to not tolerate that type of shit. Much less a parent who'd allow it & even try to use a member of the very institution she created (the Kingsguard) to harm or exclude a royal family member/a Targ. She'd also hate Cole for that. Cole is attached to Alicent and was/is instrumental for her faction.
Nah, if there was a side she had to choose, she would never choose the greens. The greens are more likely to be outsiders at best (bc of the Faith connections and the history there...she wanted Maegor to marry Rhaena anyway, for the line to continue with its own traditions and insularity for the dragons to continue be bonded with the ruling Targs), disruptive outsiders at worst to her. Of course Visenya wanted whatever was best for her house...but she, again, hated incompetence and the green candidate for a king...ugh. Death knell. No resuscitation.
Visenya usurped the throne because Aenys was weak and unfit to rule. Visenya would see Aegon as unfit to rule, he’s a lazy, unambitious, self-indulgent, lecherous, and gluttonous alcoholic. And Aemond LITERALLY FAILED HIS FIRST DIPLOMATIC MISSION.
And let’s not forget that Visenya/The Conqueror’s trio advisor was a dark-haired Targaryen bastard and very likely their half-brother, Orys Baratheon, who later founded house Baratheon.
If Visenya was around during the Dance, what she’d do to the Greens would make Castemere look like a joke.
No disagreements. It is just a straight delusion to think otherwise, that she'd congratulate the greens in any way shape or form. I think this is the green stans way of combating the black stan headcanon that Rhaenyra favored and aspired to be like Visenya or recognize that Aemond rides her dragon, and thus wishes to claim/twist more of her to legitimize him...forgetting that she also ushered in Maegor, so what does that make Aemond?
And the greens themselves would not thank Visenya even if she were inclined: she's a woman-warrior who was reputed to have done magic arts, is not their direct ancestor as Rhaenys was (even if she was her sister, it is not through her womb/blood the Targs continued) and, again, MAEGOR--the most hated pre-dragon-loss Targ king.
Why would any of them want to associate anything of themselves with her except to make use of her dragon? Funny.
Still, all of this describes her best intentions and not the fuller picture. It IS true that she usurped Aenys' heir Aegon, and not Aenys AND that she also very likely was willfully blind to Maegor out of love [headcanon post by hamliet] and a desire to have a legacy/grow a lineage with him. She was not perfect & willfully blinded herself, but hardly as evil as some people try to make her out to be.
In my opinion, she clearly came to have regrets about Maegor ("Sons of the Dragon"):
Unlike Maegor, Visenya knew when to be diplomatic but also be effectively threatening AND not overpower those who she needed to collaborate with (how she dealt with the Vale; her partnership with her siblings).
That was a very good analysis and you really made it something special. But don’t you think that those rumours surrounding Rhaenyra and Rhaenys simply are not just rumours? I mean, Rhaenyra was obviously having an affair during her marriage and her children were Strongs (confirmed by George btw) and Rhaenys most likely was an “adulteress” given her impulsive free-spirited personality (even Visenya called her frivolous). Don’t get me wrong, it’s OKAY if they were having fun we’re not slut shaming anyone. It’s just people trying to deny those obvious facts so much that it’s ridiculous.
*EDITED POST* (11/20/23)
Anon means this post.
"It’s just people trying to deny those obvious facts so much that it’s ridiculous."
Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys all lived a very very long time before Rhaenyra ever came into the picture and still so much happens in between these generations that information can be further distorted or lost on top of misogynist masters and courtiers perceiving the original 3's actions and then basing their assessments of their characters on their Andal-FM and Faith lenses. It's actually not "obvious" that Rhaenys had multiple lovers nor is it "obvious" that she and Aegon were poly. Maybe she even had a romantic or sexual relationship with her sister, which would make this a true throuple versus a V (if Visenya were actually romantically and/or sexually attracted to Aegon and vice versa):
There are throuples, comprised of three people who date each other together; solo polyamorists, who may have many lovers without having a primary partner; a V, where one person dates two people who do not date each other; and an infinite number of other ways to practice polyamory.
We know very little about their dynamic before the Conquest.
A person being flirtatious is not also actually having sex with said person and a lady of the court who patronizes singers or courtiers doesn't have to be sleeping with them simultaneously. Playfulness =/= flirtation or sexual invitation either, that's an Andal & patriarchal affirmation. Maybe Rhaenys was just like that as in she liked to engage with people and make them like her, the lines can be blurred, but Andal people place rough boundaries on female sexuality that playful act from a girl/woman to a man outside of a marriage or direct familial link gets interpreted as sexual. (Although, in the linked post above, I detail a headcanon of Rhaenys-in-court, so it's perhaps she was both more naturally "playful" AND she used the Westerosi sexualized playfulness idea to present herself as benign to male courtiers.)
It's entirely possible that Rhaenys just performed all the actions and interacted with both men and women as the average "lady of the castle" or "Queen of court" that is already expected from an Andal-Westerosi lady like Catelyn. That is being open to conversation with ladies, making promises to their requests (already conversed with their husbands before bringing it up to Rhaenys), patronizing bards and hosting them for those bards to record her and the Targs' generosity and sorta propagandize them. Rhaenys would have known that Andal noblewoman through her own mother, Valaena Velaryon, at the very least (remember that the Velaryons had landed in Westeros before the Targs did and thus they lived close to Westerosi Andals for years to adopt some of their practices). Add that Aegon and Visenya were traveling to various Westerosi castles before the Conquest and the likelihood that they related their experiences to Rhaenys--including their observations and interactions of Andal Westerosi nobles and Rhaenyra would definitely know how she could participate and contribute to her family's/dynasty's maintenance through the role of a hosting, central "lady of the court". She probably even thought of setting a new-but-modified-from-a-past-image trend/ideal of the host noblewoman for other women to emulate, further normalizing Targaryen supremacy. So the maesters and others both unconsciously and consciously, and or in bad faith chose to try to malign her in hatred or envy against the new foreign conquerors who were 2/3 women AND there undoubtedly would be those who wanted to "borrow" some power through the new royals [as a few nobles even offered their daughters to Aegon], just as some & the greens will malign Rhaenyra so they can take the throne for themselves.
Note how the book doesn't give us a PoV nor a real scene with dialogue and individual character action. Just summaries of assessments. We need PoVs and dialogue, etc to see what was Rhaenys' brand of "flirtation" and if these people just assumed she was sleeping with a lot of others just because Andal-Faith women are taught and enforced into more reserved interactions with men who aren't their relatives/husbands. While it's possible she did have extramarital relationships, why isn't possible for Visenya to attract men, even if most are intimidated throughout the relationship/prior to the relationship by her supposed "manliness", assertiveness, and military competency? There are men (like Jon Snow & Baelon Targaryen) who are way more attracted to women able to perform more physically demanding activities, ability to handle a weapon or show the ability to defend themselves better/longer than other women and enjoy it. Who says Visenya wasn't getting low with some secret courtier ass and no one was looking because they didn't see how she could "pull" any man? Visenya would be less playful, more the type to never quite let go or strive to maintain control or be the one directing much, which is not a bad thing in itself unless you are sexist.
As for Rhaenyra, it's not about how "obvious" she was having affairs (can we even call it that when she doesn't have a true marriage, even if it is a legal one and Laenor did not care?!), it's about the weaponization of a woman's sexual autonomy to Other her and makes her the bad guy so she seems less capable or fit for the throne. She can't even act like a "good" woman, so why should she rule? They present her infidelity as a moral failing--a weakness or a failure--similar to how they use her gaining weight as if it were a failing of her conformity & performance of womanhood/femininity.
With both, it's clear the maesters and others wanted to "explain" away their present or incoming power over them all. I also suggest reading this post by azureflight (despite the ask that told me about their racism, bc they still made some salient points about how noblemen likely perceived Rhaenyra):
Rhaenyra was undeniably female, in a society where being a woman was lesser. She was not someone they can put into a sterilized icon to strip from her flesh and blood humanity and she was not some "not like other girls/almost like a boy" type that they could rationalize accepting as their ruler because she "technically didn't count as woman" due to how different she behaved.
She was the embodiment of every fear about women these people had: Powerful despite lacking traditional mastery of arms, charming and hot, making her deeply desired by men which meant she could influence and "control" them, sexual meaning they couldn't control her, holding authority, meaning she could reject them, and cuckolded her husband, meaning she could emasculate them. Oh, and she also had a dragon so she would most definitely win if they were to ever try to assert themselves physically against her, as they would try against women like this in general.
To pass off the conscious manipulation and excuse it by repeating that Rhaenyra's relationship with Harwin existed just reinforces patriarchal restrictions on women's bodies and autonomy because it assumes the maesters (and septons, they can't be totally separated) are the final moral authority instead of just a group of men with biases & the ever-present agenda of maintaining their cultural authority in the epistemological conditions for Westerosi ideologies. Or reveals how they make themselves the final authority on what Westerosi people understand since they also reinforce Seven teachings about sexuality, gender relations, marriage (and the socioeconomic purpose of marriage for aristocratic peoples), class relations, and beliefs about what women vs. men are capable of as if genders make the individual.
Which in turn makes still works to invalidate and subordinate Rhaenyra's personal motivations politically and emotionally (the context for which she makes her decisions or is perhaps unable to do much of anything else) for the sake of Viserys I's, Jaehaerys I's, the Targs' patriarchal power, and the Faith/Andal-FM/maesters' influence on society's ontological and phenomenological knowledge. With Rhaenys, it reinforces a story that hasn't actually proven to be true AND reinforces how if it was, it'd be a failure of good womanhood on her part. Some of us conveniently "forget" that we are looking and talking about real humans and not just figures who must conform to certain ideal behaviors, but people in power certainly move towards reducing political persons as much as possible to reinforce their commitment to performing ideals or not performing them. Lack of certain or seemingly "a lot" of information exacerbates this.
That is one reason why I despise the ol' "there are two different canons about Rhaenyra and the Dance: HotD & F&B, GRRM himself confirms it!" It totally ignores how there are things that the maesters didn't hide nor could have made up (ages, locations where fights happened or where people lived for a long time, dragon speed, etc) AND it ignores what defines the F&B unreliable narrator of the Dance (Gyldayn, Mushroom, Septon Eustace, Munkun, Orwyle) is their twisting the story and character's characters to present the events:
as if it were Rhaenyra's fault
they did not already have prejudices against women and women and it is after she dies and her sons become kings that they feel much more justified in those prejudices
the narrators do not have present and long-term desires out of how they present their narrations (Mushroom for fame, attention and fantasy-fulfillment)
As such, one has to investigate, compare and contrast, think about context, sometimes put yourself in various characters' shoes, look up facts about Westeros' society and its customs, etcn't doing that already, you picked the wrong genre, but it becomes even more critical once you see a character with no active voice for themselves having others tell their story.
This is all about the manipulation of information and perception, anon, to ready a woman for critique that will never be applied toward a man.
Greens stans desperately try to cling to Visenya because she doesn’t have descendants (Becky, Renly too is an usurper who died without descendants so what ?), and because the Greens do not have the iconic and charismatic supporters the Blacks have, Cregan Stark, Jeyne Arryn, Benjicot Blackwood, Alysanne Blackwood, Sabitha Frey, Adam and Alyn Velaryon.
True, Visenya doesn’t have descendants, but unlike Alicent, Visenya had accomplishments of her own and left a legacy, the Kingsguard which she created. Visenya is remember as a CONQUEROR and as a RULING QUEEN and as a BADASS WARRIOR. Visenya helped to unify an entire continent. She’s like Elizabeth I, you don’t need children/descendants when you do a colossal work, leave a legacy and you’re a legend even after centuries.
Meanwhile, Alicent left a legacy of denying women power being codified because of her own grasping and absolutely no one remember her.
Where does this popular bullshit idea come from that Daemon would do anything to put Aegon III or Viserys II in power in the future instead of the Velaryon children if the dance hadn't happened? It's literally based on nothing except "We know Daemon - Daemon is Daemon" which literally means nothing? Daemon never showed any signs against their rights to inherit, quite the contrary. And be careful, this is an idea that resonates even among real fans of Daemyra and the respective characters of Rhaenyra and Daemon. There is also this idea that Aegon III and Viserys II if the dance had not taken place would have waged war against their brothers for power upon discovering that they were "bastards"... we think about everything That ?
People's arguments for Daemon trying to kill the V boys or else trying to genuinely get them passed over for his own sons stems from:
people seeing him as power hungry at the cost of those he considers family, which is exacerbated by the fear of his irreverent violence at times people think violence is not "honorable", further exacerbated by us not having PoV chapters that explicitly tell us what's up
some people seem to think that because we have an unreliable tertiary/secondary source telling these epeople's lives history book instead of a PoV novel no one can pick up on things and how they are told. The writing of Fire and Blood, especially regarding the Dance, tends to take Daemon's disobedient, violent, and lusty person and run with it, so people assume that he was always and primarily trying to steal or consolidate power for his own sake
the fact that he is a man, some people use his gender+ the Westerosi/patriarchal desire for a man to be more physically competent and thereby the idea of him potentially being more violent to say that Daemon is simpler than he is.
from the third part: how the show itself is making its story on the terfness of the argument that women are "naturally" peacemakers and less violent and men are "naturally" violent [rhaenyragendereuphoria], lacking-in-self control monsters--basically that women are meant/should be the ones to temper male aggression bc they are "naturally" disposed towards peace. Hence Rhaenyra's reluctance to flame the greens not bc of any strategic sort of thing for her own ambitions but bc her daddy would disapprove, they're supposed to be the "good guys". (Despite Rhaenyra, in the show, knowing that Viserys couldn't have told her brother about the prophecy and given him that responsibility when he barely could pick himself up to defend her in episode 8 and for years he refused to replace her.) How Daemon was rewritten to physically abuse her and undermine her authority in the black council and demand that she just attack KL, when in the book he actually said they should wait and send ravens to various lords (partially to keep his stepsons out of danger). Just as how Alicent lost her ambition and willingness for Rhaenyra to die in childbirth, her pressing the council to crown Aegon knowing full well that this would lead to war, and her victimization at the hands of her father when there was little indication of that in the book. Rather, Alicent was the driver & leader of the green faction even when Otto came back after Viserys dismissed him until she called the council to crown Aegon.
Another person some severely misunderstand bc the maesters and eyewitnesses they record already have preconceived notions about how one should act and display themselves is Visenya, the Queen who rode Vhagar. Because of how Andal lords and some masters portray Visenya (beginning with how they write Aegon loved Rhaenys more, thus Visenya seems to look like she's trying to compensate for a lack of power granted to her from Aegon's favor), her enabling her son to usurp Aenys is taken as her just trying to jolt her relatives for power...ironically this is exactly what Alicent herself canonically does when she is usurping Rhaenyra. Unlike Visenya, Alicent had no regard at all for Rhaenyra bc they were not related and her main motivation has always been to uphold patriarchal Andal-Faith power and then she could use her son's position to become the most powerful and highest ranked women in Westeros. Yes Alicent loved her kids, but her mission was not to elevate-maintain Targs in power but to elevate the Hightowers/herself. Visenya hated the Faith (and not a little because if they had it her way, no Targs would be rulers AND she would not have as a chance to be a leader or autonomy as she does bc of her gender).
The difference bt Visenya and Daemon are their genders, the sociological disadvantages and privileges that ensue for Daemon bc of gender...but neither is doing things either unreasonably or unprovoked nor incapable of using nonviolent means and they both have some trait or behavior whose main criticisms come from a lack or a willingness to understand how they think bc they deviate in some way from normative or expected behaviors starkly.
