"A hiding place of the unwanted and discarded, mired in despair, rotted with the stagnation of water and with the One to accept these stray souls" is still my favourite Soulsborne trope. At least in the Top 5 of them.
Demon's Souls was the last game in the series that I've touched and finding out that The Trope TM was present even back then was such a pleasant surprise! It is always so haunting, moving and effective.
Valley of Defilement really stands aside from the other places we'd visit through the Archstones, not a place of the now derelict ancient culture neither a culture that thrived only recently before the Scourge, but instead a culture formed from the the people no one wanted.
People living here are willing to hunt everyone else to feed Astraea in "gratitude", they were too damaged and hurt to figure out another way to show their love and devotion.
It is sad that in this way she was the first outsider human from the "better" world outside of the prison of their excilement AND the last one at the same time.
Risaia was one of the holy people that ventured into the Valley of Defilement, and despite being lost to the place and dying here left their weapon possible to find only if at least two Demons are slain... and it is only three Demons here, one of which is Astraea and another CREATED to protect her in particular. Astraea and Garl do adress the fact that there would be people cruel enough to come hunt for the Demons' Souls here even though the only Demons here literally just exist without going outside to harm the rest of the world, if not help. I think we'd certainly be not the first, and Risaia would be an example of this person predating us.
Vito, another holy knight of the same order as Selen ( x ) simply got killed. However, Vito is also a known saint, not only by name but hinted at as one of the three Rings of Devout Prayer in the game is received by trading her Moonlight sword with Sparkly. I think Vito is meant to contrast Risaia not only as "sorcery weapon" vs "miracles weapon" duality, but in attitude too! The Moonlight Greatsword is a reoccuring trope in Soulsborne games that is always associated with the path of the occult and secrecy, in the shadow of the setting's titular typically golden holy/sun light. Remarkable Moonlight Greatsword holders in Fromsoft's games are Ludwig (became a unique beast, one of the only two still capable of talking and intelligent thought) and Ranni (turned on her family and rejected not only her own privileges but also the order of the world itself to give people equality and gentler guidance). Which might mean nothing...... or, it might mean that in their distrust running too deep, denizens of Valley of Defilement killed their possible ally or a potential fellow intelligent Demon. I guess it depends on how early Fromsoft started placing certain meanings into their reoccuring tropes! ...which might be THIS ealy, because Demon's Souls featrues embryo stages of almost everything else they continued using for the next two decades.
The relationship between Astraea and the downtrodden she tried to help had nothing but good intention at its core but ended up ruining both sides. There are very good reasons to stay wary, but at the same time there is no more discrimination on who dwellers of the Valley of Defilement are willing to murder for her. I don't think Astraea weeps even for the ones killing unfairly because, well, she needs to eat, neither you want to take any chances. Sometimes the damage is just too far gone to change, and they will swallow whatever ray of light shines on them, or this ray of light will only twist their senses as if it was better if it never appeared at all.
Blighttown is extremely similar to the Valley of Defilement, but it has a gentler turn to it for the comparison.
Some disease effected those that currently live in the Blighttown, and maybe the virus travelled and evolved from the Great Swamp which also feared twisting Pyromancy into Poison spells like what Eingyi did? Whatever happened but the infected were not wanted and simply quaranteened away without attempts to help them or at least soothe their pain. Which is... wild, considering how much Miracles of the Way of the White typically have to do with healing and soothing, even amongst simple human clerics!
There were singular compassionate people. Such as Yulva who left her duties to guard the sunken Little Londo to help those in the Blighttown... or, Fair Lady aka Queelag's Sister!
Queelag herself warning her to not help the diseased is also wild, what a demoness touched by the Chaos Flame had to fear? But Fair Lady still took the Blightpus onto herself, possibly explaining her sickly appearance. In gratitude, people that she helped allowed using their bodies to carry the parasiting eggs of her spawn...
However, unlike with Astraea, it is typically not them who hunt to feed her more "souls". They do get aggressive, but it is mostly the parasites they host seeking more room and they abide. She needs Humanities to birth more babies from, but it is Kirk that is doing the heavy lifting on this one. Although he used to be a Darkwraith, her kindness moved his heart and he chose to redirect his homicidal "talents" to give her the world instead. Heck, Eingyi chooses to give benefit of the doubt and trust you to be another servant! There is some kind of "optimism", albeit twisted! "A thing you've seen in Demon's Souls but not so depressing" is actually something you see in Dark Souls 1 a LOT!
But the Gutter, on the other hand, is THE biggest nightmare fuel of these places, personally. Whereas other places feel sad, tragic and pitiful? I don't know about you guys but I've regretted travelling through this level in the deep of the night as I was so horrified that I couldn't sleep afterwards... Although, I would say that Dark Souls 2 in general has the most "evil" atmosphere out of all Soulsborne games, and Dark Souls 3 only comes second. Dark Souls 3 still has grace within its grimdark vibe, it is decadent, not evil!
Everything in this place is terrible, and it starts instantly, with the giant scary hole interferring with Majula's otherwise solemn and comforting feeling. The Gutter is not presented with subtlety or sombriety in any way, it is a place where the unwanted people quite literally got dumped in like trash. It is not simply a place where the discarded people went to knowing it was their life now, but instead the one constantly taunting them with the hope of getting out of here being just out of reach. A false hope, too. The people in the Gutter didn't simply get their spirits ruined by an unhappy life, but by the attempts to come back crashed again and again.
And just when you think it couldn't have gotten any worse, when you meet Lucatiel who so far seemed like a nice, reliable and comforting presense, she has THIS to say:
I know the order of the locations visited is not quite linear, but I've met her here only after all the previous interactions and it was the most effective.
Also this time, for a change, the one person at the center of it all accepting the discarded and showing them compassion is not a nice pale lady pulled down from her grace by the ones she gave a helping hand to, and pulling others down from their grace in turn, but this Legion of the people who gave up and accepted their fate. What choice did they have left?
The Rotten accepts everyone and offers comfort without discrimination, like the Death itself... Except, "death" is not really a concept during the times of the Fire fading, so it is simply the concept of giving up but also of... finding a company? in its most twisted form. Everyone eventually loses the memory and sense of 'self' and becomes Hollow, just a husk seeking Souls without understanding why, and being accepted in the Rotten's mass is simply no longer having to do it yourself and leaving it to him.
Subterranean Shunning Grounds can be at first mistaken for the simple Sewers, but what I find especially effective about this place is that it is right beneath LEYENDELL. The beautiful, perfect, golden, glistening place everyone wished they could stay at, the concentration of everything the people in the Lands Between revere. Choosing to place Shunning Grounds underneath it is perfect metaphor for the system's ugly underbelly. I think out of all Soulsborne places like this, this one is placed the most effectively.
Another thing I especially like about Shunning Grounds is that the true gut punch settles in when you realise that it is not just "some" unwanted and persecuted people in the Lands Between who got thrown into this place but that the ones unwanted and persecuted were the characters you've already met and formed opinions on! Morgott at the very least for certain. It feels way more personal and effective.
Heck, I'd like Elden Ring's narrative more if there was no way to NOT meet Mohg before Shunning Grounds! Just letting it settle in that the scary blood cult Demigod you've just met and died 30 times to was once a child thrown into literal sewers. Having to connect misplaced pieces and then gazing at the final puzzle in ave is a great Soulsborne experience, sure, but some experiences just should be unskippable even for casual players.
...just like how I'd like its narrative way more if they've kept Kale's questline instead because hoooo boy... Watching the NPCs you've became familiar with have their spirits crashed before your eyes because you did try to "help" them would never fail, ever. Sorry Fromsoft, but there was NO reason to remove this questline, especially with how Bell Bearings mechanics allows the player to still buy things even with merchants gone. These events will always be canon for me, no matter what.
(Restored questline video here: ( x ))
And instead of a person at the center of the pain, despair and resentment offering the compassion, twisted or not, it is the manifestation of the despair itself. It is not about living life of the utterly downtrodden hinged on hostility to the outsiders, not about exchanging your burdens and not even about letting someone else carry all your burdens entirely... But, it is about no longer living at all.
Even the way to get to this place is so horrifyingly haunting that to the moment you get to the Three Fingers, you might yourself start to wonder whether the existence is worth it if it will always inevitably result into something like this.
I think Melina's point should have stayed entirely all about questioning the nihilism and pointing out how parting with the pain and suffering means parting with hope and love the existence brings too... The whole thing about "saving" her life at the expense of everything else slightly overloaded the gravity of this concept! We are thinking about BIG and PHILSOPHICAL things here and introspect within our own despair here! The trolley problem makes it more difficult and shifts the emotional focus! Have Melina die (or live) regardless of our choices entirely, and her heartfelt speech about existence and not despairing would fit PERFECTLY!
...I've ended it on a bit of a ranting note, sorry. I just think that whereas other three "places like this" were executed perfectly, Shunning Grounds has the most criticism and room for improvement. However, it ALSO has the most potential for the emotional impact and what it did do right it did REALLY right.
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And, again, I really love that these places always have the filthy waters. Miyazaki loving the poisonous swamps is not just a favourite joke, it is a very important marker of Fromsoft's common themes! Stagnation of water, or "kegare", is one of the most striking ways they're using to show how the soul of the society and individuals gets damaged.
Humanity is historically deluded with the idea of protecting its purity by simply throwing away the ones they do not want and denied the contact with the "good" people they deeply rot within, just like a lake denied any rivers turns into a swamp.
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