You know what I hate?, the fact historians (or authors ahem) who write about all the wives of Henry VIII having book titles just adding on to the stereotypes that have perpetuated over history.
The worse for me is the fact they just say Anne B is an obsession, Kathryn Howard is a wh*re and tainted or a romanticised victim and Catherine Parr is just the final wife.
Some examples
Alison Weir: Katherine of Aragon is a True Queen whereas Anne B is not even a Queen and is just an obsession, Kathryn Howard is a Queen but is tainted and Catherine Parr is a Sixth Wife. Anne of Cleves being the Queen of Secrets I just cannot.
Amy Licence: Katherine of Aragon is a true wife and Anne B’s tag is Adultery, Heresy and Desire.
Elizabeth Norton: Anne B is Henry VIII’s obsession, Jane is Henry VIII’s True Love, Anne of Cleves is Henry’s Discarded Bride and Catherine Parr is a bit more in depth with Wife, widow, mother, survivor, the story of the last queen of Henry VIII.
And lets not start on the taglines of biographies of Mary I and Elizabeth I.
Have you seen Spencer movie, what's your thoughts?
Yes I actually just got back from seeing it.
So, like, I get what the writers were going for trying to compare them…they were both these hugely popular (well, not Anne) but controversial people who both got cast aside blah blah blah
That’s how the movie wanted it to seem, but, really, Anne and Diana are not the same. Their lives really weren’t the same, their situations weren’t the same. Honestly, they’re not really comparable.
One moment that stuck out to me was the line where Diana said something like “Anne offered her head” …as if she had a choice? They made it seem like Anne intentionally martyred herself.
I mean, I do appreciate that the portrayal of Anne was sympathetic because Anne isn’t often given such kindness, but yeah, the comparisons between Anne and Diana are surface-level at best. I mean, did you notice how they mostly focused on the Jane Seymour aspect of Anne’s fall rather than the whole no male heir thing? (Because, obviously, that was not an issue for Diana)
I actually thought the movie as a whole was decent…it was a bit strange but I guess it was supposed to be. And even though I think Anne was kind of a weird choice to compare to Diana, I still enjoyed seeing her.
The saddest word in the whole wide world is the word almost. He was almost in love. She was almost good for him. He almost stopped her. She almost waited. He almost lived. They almost made it.
I saw a documentary titled Anne Boleyn: Schemer or Victim. And I just….why can’t it be both? Being a schemer does not rob one of the ability to also be a victim.
Why can’t people see her as someone with ambition, determined to live the best life she could. To rise as high as she could. Whether she loved Henry, honestly, doesn’t matter. She dared imagine for herself, and dared pursue it.
She also, no doubt, saw how her sister was treated. First by the French court and then by Henry, and knew she did not want that path that being a mistress would give her.
She was also a light of the Reformation, dedicated to Protestantism. Who made her mark.
Rather than reduce her to one or the other. Recognize she was both. A schemer brought down by another schemer after he got tired of wrestling with her for control of Henry, and realized if she won it’d be his death most likely.
A schemer, who played a hell of a game, but didn’t realize when it was time to change tactics.
Anne Boleyn a schemer? Hell yeah.
A victim: Absolutely. Nothing she did warranted her ultimate end, and the cruelty of being beheaded.
The two are not mutually exclusive. And we really need to stop treating women today, and in history, this way.
what are your opinions on jane seymour? personally i don’t really care that much for the six wives, i prefer their kids lmao
to be honest with you, I don't have any particularly strong opinions about Jane. she's something of an enigma in that we know so little about her that’s concrete/indisputed... if I had more to go on re: Jane's thoughts and beliefs, especially surrounding the events of April-May 1536, I would have a more solid opinion.
I think that Jane was probably as ambitious for herself/her family as any Tudor courtier; that was the nature of being a courtier. I do not think that she was as ardent a supporter of KOA or of Mary's rights as tradition would have us believe. by the time she was in a position to be a kind of “second mother” to Mary a) Mary's mother had been dead for six months, and b) Mary had finally capitulated to her father's and Cromwell's demands, so either way, she (Mary) couldn't take the “I know of no queen but my mother" road anymore, and therefore Jane could afford to be kind...Jane did not, ofc, behave the same way towards her other stepdaughter (who was much younger and more vulnerable), which is...interesting to me, and kind of belies Jane’s Good Stepmother reputation, though we’d know more about her true nature as a stepmother had she lived longer. I also like to think that Jane wasn't at all comfortable to be marrying a man not two weeks after his previous wife, who was essentially Jane's employer, had been put to death (along with five other men). certainly, the fact that Jane and Henry were betrothed the day after Anne died makes ME uncomfortable. But I don't think we have any evidence to suggest how she might have felt about it, either way.
and frankly...I just feel a bit sorry for her? Henry, for all that he married her in such a rush, was clearly never as goofy for Jane as he had been for Anne (or, later, for Kathryn Howard). maybe this was because she didn't have the benefit of a “princely education” like those of her predecessors and so was (probably) less compatible with Henry on a personal level than either of them had been? whatever the case may be, not long after their wedding (as in a few weeks), he's supposed to have publicly complained that he had acted too rashly in marrying Jane and said he regretted not waiting so that he could consider some of the younger/prettier women at court. how humiliating for Jane! he also scolded her for “meddling,” threatened her by reminding her of Anne's execution, and seems to have been more neglectful than otherwise until she became pregnant. especially after her failed intercession following the Pilgrimage of Grace, Jane must have been keenly aware that her sole apparent value to Henry lay in her womb, and...well, that probably sucked for her? she’s gone down as “Henry VIII’s true love,” but that is so patently untrue that it’s almost funny.
so to sum up: I think Jane has a far better posthumous reputation/historiography than almost any of Henry’s other wives. since two of them are often straight-up written off as whores who deserved “what they got” in some fashion...well, being remembered as “the boring one” isn’t so bad? and while I don’t think Anita Briem’s Jane, who just pretends to be meek while she coldly smirks and schemes behind the scenes, is all that accurate, I think Annabelle Wallis’ saccharine and selfless Jane is wide of the mark as well.
what are your opinions on jane seymour? personally i don’t really care that much for the six wives, i prefer their kids lmao
to be honest with you, I don't have any particularly strong opinions about Jane. she's something of an enigma in that we know so little about her that’s concrete/indisputed... if I had more to go on re: Jane's thoughts and beliefs, especially surrounding the events of April-May 1536, I would have a more solid opinion.
I think that Jane was probably as ambitious for herself/her family as any Tudor courtier; that was the nature of being a courtier. I do not think that she was as ardent a supporter of KOA or of Mary's rights as tradition would have us believe. by the time she was in a position to be a kind of “second mother” to Mary a) Mary's mother had been dead for six months, and b) Mary had finally capitulated to her father's and Cromwell's demands, so either way, she (Mary) couldn't take the “I know of no queen but my mother" road anymore, and therefore Jane could afford to be kind...Jane did not, ofc, behave the same way towards her other stepdaughter (who was much younger and more vulnerable), which is...interesting to me, and kind of belies Jane’s Good Stepmother reputation, though we’d know more about her true nature as a stepmother had she lived longer. I also like to think that Jane wasn't at all comfortable to be marrying a man not two weeks after his previous wife, who was essentially Jane's employer, had been put to death (along with five other men). certainly, the fact that Jane and Henry were betrothed the day after Anne died makes ME uncomfortable. But I don't think we have any evidence to suggest how she might have felt about it, either way.
and frankly...I just feel a bit sorry for her? Henry, for all that he married her in such a rush, was clearly never as goofy for Jane as he had been for Anne (or, later, for Kathryn Howard). maybe this was because she didn't have the benefit of a “princely education” like those of her predecessors and so was (probably) less compatible with Henry on a personal level than either of them had been? whatever the case may be, not long after their wedding (as in a few weeks), he's supposed to have publicly complained that he had acted too rashly in marrying Jane and said he regretted not waiting so that he could consider some of the younger/prettier women at court. how humiliating for Jane! he also scolded her for “meddling,” threatened her by reminding her of Anne's execution, and seems to have been more neglectful than otherwise until she became pregnant. especially after her failed intercession following the Pilgrimage of Grace, Jane must have been keenly aware that her sole apparent value to Henry lay in her womb, and...well, that probably sucked for her? she’s gone down as “Henry VIII’s true love,” but that is so patently untrue that it’s almost funny.
so to sum up: I think Jane has a far better posthumous reputation/historiography than almost any of Henry’s other wives. since two of them are often straight-up written off as whores who deserved “what they got” in some fashion...well, being remembered as “the boring one” isn’t so bad? and while I don’t think Anita Briem’s Jane, who just pretends to be meek while she coldly smirks and schemes behind the scenes, is all that accurate, I think Annabelle Wallis’ saccharine and selfless Jane is wide of the mark as well.
jacobvanloon
