âThat really is low-class vocabulary,â she tells me. âItâs very macho as well. Only a man would say something like that.
âAnd it is not what this place is about. To me, it is a journey through the mystery of the senses to a land of sensuality and encounters.â
Hervo is particularly aggrieved at what she took to be the implication that she organised sexual games for the benefit of men.
Nothing could be further from the truth, she insists. âHere, everything revolves around womenâs pleasure. This is a place where a woman can do what she wants, when she wants and with whom she wants â and if she wants to do nothing, she does nothing.â
Hervo opened Les Chandelles, her recreational club â as she would prefer it described â in 1993, and it has since become a part of French high-society folklore.
Any Parisian will tell you that this is the place where the countryâs political, economic and cultural elites live out their sexual fantasies beyond the sight of ordinary mortals, where government ministers, television presenters, rock stars and chief executives engage in the ancient practice of libertinage.
But what exactly goes on behind the plain façade in a narrow street near the Louvre in central Paris? And what might this tell us about French values? Or indeed about British values, given the steady flow of clients rumoured to have crossed the channel in recent years in the hope of fulfilling their âerotic potentialâ under Hervoâs stewardship?
With telephones barred from the club (they have to be left at the entrance) and hardly anyone willing to talk openly about their evenings there â âItâs a matter of intimacy,â says Hervo. âYou donât start telling everyone about your sex life at dinner partiesâ â such questions have given rise to few answers and much speculation.
Now, with the club closed because of the pandemic, Hervo, 53, has written a book that explains what happens when the dancefloor empties, usually around 1.30am, and the salons around it fill with writhing, sighing bodies.
Les dessous des Chandelles, which could be translated either figuratively as The Secrets of the Chandelles or literally as Underneath the Candelabras, is the portrait of a quintessentially French establishment.
Hervo explains that her club is a bastion of French âsavoir vivreâ, where a select group of beautiful, intelligent and well-educated people conduct themselves in a way befitting a nation that has given the world some of its greatest suggestive literature, from MoliĂšreâs Dom Juan to Laclosâ Les liaisons dangereuses.
Consider, for example, her account of one of the Eyes Wide Shut theme parties she holds from time to time. âA naked woman, her gaze hidden by a Venetian mask, lies on a table,â she writes. âA nymph in a transparent toga joins her. She kneels down and delicately pulls her legs apart.â
She has torrid encounters herself, for instance with a woman whose perfume she found bewitching and whose body she discovered behind a veil in an alcove.
Much of her time, however, is spent looking after her patrons, like the couple of regulars who realised to their horror that their adult son and his partner had also begun going to Les Chandelles. Hervo tells how they begged her to help them avoid what they said would be a âregrettableâ meeting.
On another occasion, a male customer arrived with his mistress, explaining to Hervo that his wife was stuck at home because she was ill. An hour later, the wife arrived with a younger man, she writes. âDonât say anything to my husband,â she told Hervo. âHe thinks Iâve got the flu.â
Hervo promptly rushed downstairs where she found the husband, ânaked and frolicking with his partner and a few other accomplicesâ. She advised him to leave through the emergency exit.
I am discussing these and more adventures with Hervo at a table in her clubâs pink and white restaurant, which is to be found at the bottom of stairs that wind down from an ordinary-looking blue door on the street.
Opposite us is another staircase that leads to what could easily be mistaken for an 18th- century Parisian literary salon â were it not for the mattress in the alcove at the end of it.
A third staircase, encased in walls painted in gold leaf, descends to a dancefloor, a bar and more salons with their alcoves, benches and mattresses.
It is difficult to find an English word to describe Les Chandelles. Some have called it a swingersâ club, although that conveys none of the cerebral sophistication and cultural aspirations that go with elite sex in France.
What prevails at her club, she says, is libertinage, a concept dating back to a 12th-century rebellion against the church by disaffected clerics who were determined to place physical love above the courtly version promoted by troubadours and their ilk.
The contemporary version of this philosophy involves making âeverything possible and nothing obligatoryâ, Hervo says.
One couple might go for sex, either with each other or with someone else, she says. A second might go along to watch. A third could be happy with a turn on the dancefloor.
âFor some, it is enough to have an imaginary journey. For others, they will want a little bit more. But what happens in the salons is the icing on the cake and it doesnât matter if nothing happens, because weâve had such fun with the preliminaries.
Libertinage, which has come and gone in France over the centuries â the early 17th and the mid-18th being among the high points â enjoyed a return to fashion from the late Nineties with the emergence of hundreds of clubs amid a spirit of unrestrained freedom.
The number has since fallen, with adepts taking to organising their own house parties. At the last count there were 269 such clubs left, according to French state radio.
The health crisis looks likely to drive many more out of business, their activities scarcely being compatible with social distancing.
Les Chandelles, however, has a status apart, and this should offer it protection against the vicissitudes of fortune.
Hervo says her customers include âpoliticians from both the left and the rightâ and âcelebrities from across the whole worldâ (she refuses to divulge their names).
Hervo says that as her clubâs fame has grown, so has its allure to visitors from Europe, the US, Asia and âa lot from Britainâ.
It is not enough just to cross the channel and knock on the door, though. In order to get in, you need erotic knowhow, Hervo says, along with familiarity with Parisian savoir-vivre.
âIt is an alchemy. A way of being,â she says.
In his Histoire du libertinage, Didier Foucault, a history lecturer at Toulouse University who is a specialist on the subject, writes of how the practice became fashionable after 1600 among aristocrats driven âby a haughty refusal to bow either to common law or to any authority whatsoever, be it temporal or divineâ.
But the selection policy is not based on money, Hervo insists. More important to her are âelegance, refinement, education and taste.
âI have a very tough door policy. I turn away a lot of people.â
The badly dressed, the ugly, the vulgar, have no hope of getting past her, she says, while the overweight may struggle as well, at least if they are male.
âI know I shouldnât be saying this, but I am going to say it anyway. I think I would be more concerned by a fat man than a round woman. Round women can be very beautiful but, in general, men who are fat are⊠Well, someone who lets himself go physically is someone who does⊠not respect himself. And if he doesnât respect himself, he is less likely to respect other people.â
On the other, it is a tale of the authorâs personal voyage through libertinage and her claim that the sexual liberation she found along the way, first in other clubs and then in her own, helped to unshackle her from a traumatic childhood marked by incest, guilt and depression.
One minute she is talking with off-putting clarity about the female orgasm, telling me in a tone that brooks no argument that âa womanâs sexuality is so much richer than that of a manâ. The next she is explaining, with equal equanimity, how she resisted underworld attempts to take over her club following her divorce in 2005.
Like all self-respecting Parisiennes, she knows how to throw a strategic fit of pique as well, announcing that the photographer is driving her mad and that Tom had better summon a friend for help, and be quick about it. The friend duly arrives with a bottle of sancerre to enable Hervo to get through the afternoon session.
Yet, from time to time, there are signs of the scars left by childhood, as when she concedes that she took refuge in libertinage in part because âat night-time, you canât see the suffering so much⊠the glitter masks the painâ.
At one point, her eyes fill with tears as she discloses that her relatives have refused to speak to her since the publication of her book, which recounts her rape by her grandfather as a young girl, her parentsâ refusal to believe her, her teenage struggles with depression, her toxic marriage to a man 20-odd years her senior, and her salvation in swingersâ clubs.
It was her former husband who introduced her to libertinage. She writes of her first experience in a club where âin a salon plunged into darkness⊠some couples are making love while others are observing themâ.
She did not want to join in â at least not the first time â but says, âMy emotion [was]great and my excitement real.â
âI was 24 and I instinctively knew it was right for me,â Hervo tells me. âWhat I liked in those places was a feeling of freedom and especially a feeling that I was meeting couples who seemed to get on well together.
âThat was not the image of the couple I had received as a child because my parents argued all the time. It was like Disneyland as far as I was concerned.â
When her former husband suggested opening their own swingersâ club in Paris, she jumped at the chance. He put up some of the money, they borrowed the rest and she became the manager.
âIt was a success straight away, because I think it was the first club to give so much importance to women,â she says. âAt that time, in 1993, in other clubs, the women were just treated as objects and it was the men who took charge of the games and who brought along their wives.
âI think that they were probably men of little courage who were not able to cheat on their wives and who went to this sort of place instead. But that was not at all in the spirit of libertinage.â
Les Chandelles would be different, she decided. âWomen who are objects are women without humanity. Here, I made sure that the women were subjects.
âIn fact, I created here what I never had myself. I tried to encourage women to take their time, to dare to set the tempo, to ask men to be attentive and unhurried and to be gallant, because women adore gallantry.â
She says her door policy has always involved refusing entrance to couples if she suspects that the woman is being dragged along against her will or kept in the dark about the true nature of Les Chandelles. âEven now in 2021, there are boors who donât tell their partners where they are taking them,â she says. âItâs increasingly rare but it still happens. But if I have the slightest doubt, I question them. You get a feeling for these things.â
Inside the club, no means no, she says, explaining that men can be expelled for repeating a request to a female customer if they are turned down the first time.
âI think women are much safer in this sort of place than in traditional nightclubs where they get hassled all the time,â she tells me.
She says that she herself came to see Les Chandelles â of which she has been the sole owner since extracting herself from her disastrous marriage 16 years ago and buying her former husbandâs share â as a refuge from the wounds left by her troubled childhood.
âThis has been my bunker and my incubator,â she says. âIt was where I revitalised myself, and where I discovered myself too.â
Can her club really be as idyllic as she pretends?
For years, Les Chandelles has been described in the French press as a favourite haunt of Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the former head of the International Monetary Fund, who resigned following his arrest on suspicion of rape. Although the charge was ultimately dropped, reports of his attendance at Les Chandelles have done nothing for its image.
He denies her claim, but the publicity has scarcely been an advertisement for Hervoâs establishment.
She says the coverage has been misleading and unfair. DSK, for instance, barely ever visited Les Chandelles, she insists.
âThere are many other politicians who came more often than him and who were much more important than him,â she says.
As for Darmanin, she says that when he dropped into the club a little over a decade ago, he was a young bachelor, and that young bachelors sometimes visit âfor an evening with â whatâs that word they use now? â oh yes, les sex friends, thatâs it.
âAnd thereâs nothing wrong with that. If you find yourself on your own for a year or so, you might want a regular one of those. Why not?â
Until now, the interview has gone smoothly enough, interrupted only by the barking of Cerise, Hervoâs Yorkshire terrier, at the emergence of the photographer from below.
But then I make a big mistake. Noting the entrance policy favours single women â who are allowed in on evenings otherwise reserved for couples, when single men are banned â I ask Hervo whether she uses them as an enticement for male patrons seeking a threesome with their wives and another partner.
She looks daggers across the table. âThat is really a stupid, male, Cro-Magnon thing to say,â she tells me. âItâs very maladroit of you.
âSingle women come because they want to have fun, because they could meet a man who pleases them, or a woman, or perhaps neither. Sometimes, itâs just two women friends who come for a drink because they know that here they wonât be bothered and because they will be appreciated because they are pretty.
âWhen I began here, I didnât receive single women in the evening, because society considered that a woman who came alone to an establishment like mine was either a whore or a bitch. I fought to make people understand that life does not work like that, and I am proud to say that today I have single women among my customers.â
I ask Hervo if she is a feminist. âI certainly am not a neo-feminist,â she says, explaining that she laughs off wolf whistles in the street, likes being complimented on her looks and wants to âseduce or to be seduced, freely. But I am feminist for some things. I am in favour of women being able to experience pleasure alone at first, to discover their bodies and to enjoy their bodies, and only afterwards to share all that with a partner if they so wish.
âThat sort of thing has not always been possible in the past.â
Pointing out that Foucaultâs history of libertinage shows how sexual freedoms have come and gone over the centuries in France, I wonder out loud whether the country is shifting back towards greater restraint.
âYouâre right, it is,â she says. âThe difference is that today, it is not religion that is trying to cover everything up, itâs our moralising society. There is a very prudish scent around these days.â
In a thinly veiled attack on #MeToo, she complains in her book that the social networks have been transformed into âpopular tribunalsâ, that the law has come to treat women âas weak beings which have to be protectedâ and that the ancestral French game of seduction is being subjected to new codes and new rules.
Others forecast the continued spread of the Anglo-Saxon-style feminism that Hervo abhors and the curtailment of French love-making and seduction. She is not overly worried, though. On a personal level, she has emerged from years of therapy able to confront her past and look forward to the future, she says. She has become a part-time therapist herself, has a house in the country, where she has spent much of the past year, and is planning to âmarry the man I loveâ this summer.
Even if the moral backlash gathers strength, she thinks that Les Chandelles will continue to triumph.
âThere have always been currents and countercurrents, but if society goes one way, people will need a place of liberty where they can do what they want, where they will have the freedom to talk, to exchange.â
Les sexploratrices empruntent plusieurs chemins, du BDSM (bondage, discipline, sado-masochisme) au polyamour. Ne risque-t-on pas de construire d'autres normes en voulant s'affranchir ?