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Apollo 17 vs Artemis II
How to help someone get out of a harmful group (like a cult or conspiracist community)
First, you must understand that you can’t convince someone of anything if they don’t trust you. If they already trust you and respect your opinions, you have a pretty good advantage already. If they don’t trust you and don’t respect your opinions, then you need to evaluate whether it’s likely you can build trust with them.
Someone like a parent who always puts your thoughts down because you’re supposedly not old enough to know anything is not likely to trust you, and it’s unlikely you’ll be able to reach them. Maybe someone else they actually respect could convince them, but you probably aren’t going to get anywhere with them. If it’s possible, your best chance might be to talk to someone this person actually does respect.
Basically, if somebody treats you with contempt because they think you’re beneath them, you probably can’t change their mind, and there is probably very little you can do without getting help from someone else.
If this isn’t the situation, then you need to work on building trust. This is why a lot of articles with advice for helping people out of cults instruct people to be available and being willing to listen without passing judgment. You need to be a safe person.
Now of course, being safe doesn’t mean that you just agree with everything they say. But it does mean that you don’t try to lecture or talk down to them, or try to spring gotchas on them, or try to lay on shame and guilt. Basically, you must always try to avoid showing contempt. And I know that might be challenging sometimes, but if you’re going to get anywhere then it’s what you must do.
Building trust also includes just hanging out and talking about normal, non-controversial stuff. You can try and discuss things that you both like and care about. Do you have a fandom in common? Do you both like crochet? Do you both like cats? Do you both care about the environment? Focus on topics that you share interests in.
You can also guide them toward activities that aren’t related to their group, like fun media, volunteer work, hiking, anything. If it’s possible and appropriate, invite them to do things with you.
Be emotionally available and supportive where you can. Harmful groups are usually highly toxic, and if you can be a safe person they can vent to and validate them when they feel like they’re being mistreated or feel like something in the group isn’t right, this can be very helpful in getting them out of it.
Offer any other kind of support you can – money, a hug, baked goods, whatever. Show them that you care about them and their wellbeing.
You must also be mindful that harmful groups often teach people that their critics are not to be trusted, and if your friends or family criticize them then they are bad people and must be cut off. They will usually also have canned responses to common criticisms. The techniques don’t work? It’s just people who didn’t try them or didn’t try hard enough who are saying that. Abuse allegations? The accuser was just trying to smear the group. Furthermore, people often believe that even when harm does happen, the good the group is doing outweighs the harm. If you try and bring up bad things the group they’re in has done before they’ve started to realize that it’s bad on their own, you’re going to make them feel attacked, which loses you your safe person cred.
You also shouldn’t bring up facts and logic unless they’re in a frame of mind to entertain that kind of thing. Many people make the mistake of thinking that they can just pelt people with facts and logic whenever and have it change their minds. The trouble is that many people get into harmful groups for emotional reasons rather than logical ones. They are also often capable of creating counter-rationalizations, if the group hasn’t already provided them. The time for facts and logic is when your person is open and willing to listen to new ideas and different ways of thinking.
One thing that is useful is to research the group to get a sense of what kinds of needs it claims it can fulfill. Harmful groups often promise people a way out of their problems by claiming they can help them meet their material or psychological needs, teach them personal empowerment or build their self-esteem, give them community or purpose, or help them find healing. Try and figure out what your person wants or needs, and try to encourage them toward healthier ways of getting it. For example, if they suffer from poor self-image, you can try and direct them toward resources that will help them build a positive self-image in healthy ways.
(Also, it’s easier to think critically and avoid cultish or extremist thinking when you’re not under a bunch of stress, so helping them meet their needs and feel security in healthy ways is also empowering them to think better!)
Researching the group and its teachings is also useful because if your person uses its language, you’ll know what they’re talking about and you will be able to have meaningful conversations about it. When your person trusts you and feels that you are safe, you can ask critical questions (here are some examples) about the group, its practices, and its beliefs to prompt them to think. You don’t want to be too pushy and make them feel like they’re being grilled or interrogated, or make them feel like you’re forcing them to defend their beliefs. You need to come across as sincerely thoughtful and respectful.
At some point you might feel tempted to say something like “they don’t care about you” or “they’re just manipulating you.” Don’t do this. For one, it’s literally manipulative behavior itself. For another, many people in harmful groups do care about each other. Even the leaders might genuinely care, even if the ways they try to take care of people are harmful. It’s more useful to help your person come to recognize that that someone can truly care about you, and have harmful beliefs or unhealed trauma that make it hard for them to care for you in a healthy way.
In fact, helping your person recognize that two (or more!) things can be true at once can be a very useful approach overall. Harmful groups tend to hold a lot of binaries as truth, and by showing your person that the real world doesn’t really operate according to binaries will help them realize that the group’s beliefs don’t really make sense.
You might also recommend media that can help them broaden their understanding of things and maybe correct some of the misinformation they’ve been exposed to. I don’t necessarily mean media that directly debunks their beliefs (that kind of thing can backfire), but media that talks about things that don’t totally line up with their beliefs. For example, if they have a comprehension of Native American culture that comes from white New Agers, you might recommend a book like Braiding Sweetgrass. If they trust and respect you, your endorsement of a book or a video can carry a lot of weight.
It also helps to be aware of who and what they’ve been taught to distrust. High control groups and conspiracist communities often teach people that information from certain people or groups cannot be trusted. If they have been taught that “mainstream science” is controlled by a conspiracy, sending them a scientific paper or even a science news article might not be of much use. You’ll probably have to work on helping them see that their distrust is unfounded.
Personal anecdotes might also help chip away at the beliefs your person has adopted. Like if they have bigoted or incorrect beliefs about a certain type of people, you might tell them about your own experience with this kind of person. For example, if they claim that academics just believe what they’re told and toe the party line, you can tell them about your academic friend or an academic you follow online who isn’t like that. If they believe anti-vax conspiracy theories, you can mention that you know lots of people who got vaccinated, and nothing bad happened to them.
Also, you should make sure you’re up on critical thinking and research skills yourself! You can start by checking out:
A Beginner’s Guide to Information Literacy
Critical Thinking Skills: Definitions, Examples, and How to Improve Them
11 Characteristics of Pseudoscience
Six Ways To Debunk Any Conspiracy Theory
Finally, make sure that you take care of yourself. Helping people out of harmful groups and belief systems is often a slow process, and it can be physically and mentally draining. Make sure you set boundaries for yourself – if interacting with this person causes you serious stress, then take time to focus on yourself. Also remember that this is not work that you are absolutely obligated to do, and there is no shame in admitting that it’s too much for you. Also know that you can do everything right, and it may not work out because people will sometimes choose to cling to harmful things for one reason or another.
"Should I try to help someone out of a cult, conspiracy theory, or other bogus thing?" A quick way to check
Does this person feel safe around you and value your opinions? Then yes.
If not, do you think you can build trust with this person? Do you think you can establish yourself as a safe person who cares about them? Then give it a try if you think you're up to it.
Does this person look down on you? Hold you in contempt? Make it clear they think you're ignorant and unable to think? Make you feel unsafe or anxious? Harm your mental health? Then no.
So I was going through your tag on radicalization and uh... "women who actually believe men are inherently evil have been radicalized." What if I am a woman and this happened bc of trauma, what do I do to deradicalize?
Also: "if you’re in a social media environment where the daily ubiquitous message is that you have no hope of any kind of future and you can’t possibly achieve anything without a violent overthrow of society, you’re being radicalized, and not in the good way" What... If I may have fallen for this but believe it's true?
(answer anonymously please)
I hope by "answer anonymously" you just mean to respond to your anonymous message, because that's literally the only thing I can do. (And Tumblr doesn't let people un-anon an anonymous message, if that's what you're worried about.)
So, if you're in any kind of toxic space, the main thing is to take whatever steps you can to remove yourself from it. I've written on how to do this over here: "I'm in a bad place and need to get out, what can I do?"
If you're trying to rewrite/overwrite toxic beliefs, you can:
Recognize that you're experiencing a trauma response, and that your brain is trying to keep you safe. Also recognize that trauma responses can lead to hasty generalizations. For example, if someone was afraid that all cats would bite them because they had a bad experience with one cat, we would recognize that this fear is understandable, but also irrational. It's no moral failing if you can't completely get rid of your fear responses. But also, you can't let those fear responses dictate your politics.
Try to think of or look for anything the challenges the belief you're trying to get rid of. Hang out with people, follow accounts, and engage with media that challenges the worldview you're trying to move past.
I think it helps to consider the typical political aims of demonizing an entire group of people. Usually, the purpose is finding an easy scapegoat for society's problems instead of admitting that things are complicated.
Also, consider how being taught that incremental change or small efforts are fundamentally worthless, and only some grand (but functionally impossible) action is worth your effort effectively freezes you in place, which only serves those who are in power.
So yeah, essentially, to deradicalize yourself, you need to remove yourself from spaces and media that encourage unhealthy and unreasonable beliefs, reeducating yourself with something healthy and reasonable, and think critically about the beliefs you're trying to deconstruct.
Actionable suggestions for guys who want to stop other guys from getting sucked into the far right
Remember that you're not alone in this. Make efforts to reach out and connect with other guys who share your convictions. Form communities and support each other.
If you're white, cis, heterosexual, and abled, understand that the thing that's oppressing you is classism. The harmful (if not impossible) ideals of manhood you're expected to live up to were invented by a bunch of rich guys who got rich by exploiting people like you. Help other guys understand this.
Learn and help other guys learn how men can be affected by ableism, racism, homophobia, and transphobia.
Learn and help other guys understand that suffering is not a contest, and other people talking about their problems are not taking anything away from you. The woman talking about how much she's suffering from institutional misogyny is not your rival. If you're white, the person talking about racism is not your rival. You're just suffering in different ways under the same shitty system. The system that exploits you all wants you fighting each other.
Learn to recognize where systems and social norms pit people against each other in ways that generate genuine hostility. Understand and help others understand that this is inherently unhealthy.
Learn and help other guys learn healthy emotional regulation skills.
Learn and help other guys learn how to find validation and fulfillment outside of success as defined by capitalism and heteronormativity.
Learn and help other guys learn how to take care of yourselves in general.
Learn and help other guys learn critical thinking skills and media literacy. (Click here for resources!)
Offer other guys emotional support when they need it, and help guys understand that this is healthy behavior that should be normalized.
Remember and remind other guys that when women talk about men being disgusting, it's probably not about you, personally. It's probably about her frustrations with a bunch of assholes you don't even know.
Remember and remind other guys that women who actually believe men are inherently evil have been radicalized, and that the best response to this isn't to get into some other kind of radical nonsense, but to work against all types of radicalization.
Share any useful resources you find!
Why do some intersex TMEs call themselves "afab transfems"? De-masculinizing your body as someone c/afab is not transitioning towards femininity, it's moving _within_ femininity. You're cis! Perisex cis women get ffs and hrt too, you're not special.
I am not intersex, but I will try to summarize as best I can, so sorry if it is kind of vague!
This is because saying that it is transitioning *within* femininity is not really that accurate.
Being assigned a certain gender at birth is not equal to being that gender, right? It is an event that happened to them as an infant and it just means that "male" or "female" was written on a birth certificate when you were born.
For a perisex, cis woman this would mean that she gets raised as a woman, hormonally develops like one during puberty, and has the geenitalia that our cispatriarchial, binary-forcing society describes as female: an uterus, ovaries, a vagina, a clitoris, you get it. Society will perceive and treat her like a woman.
For an intersex afab woman, though, this will not be the same. Her genitals may be surgically altered at birth, or not. She may be put on puberty blockers or given HRT - which cis children do not go through. She may not develop the same way during puberty: she may grow facial hair, her voice may drop, her breasts and hips may not grow... In which case the society will not perceive her like a woman. She may be perceived as a man, or as a freak - and treated in ways that are more like how the world treats trans women.
She will have to take the steps necessary to transition from her perceived non-woman state towards femininity, which cis perisex women of her age do not need to be bothered to do. Because that is the difference.
You say that cis women go through HRT and ffs too, but do they do it in the same way? I mean, cis women may get vaginoplasty if they have, say, labia minora that are too long, or they can get plastic surgery if they don't like their facial traits, or they need to dilate because they suffer from vaginismus, or they get breast augmentation... but they don't go through these in the same way that trans women do. Their experience is different. And intersex afab women's experiences tend to be closer to those of trans women than to cis ones.
So then, calling an afab intersex woman cis would be less accurate, because it does not reflect her experience!
Does this mean that trans women who are perisex have to call themselves amab?
Intersex women people use these labels because it helps specify the experience that they have gone through, when they talk about said experience. An intersex person assigned female will not go through the same things that one assigned male does, especially if they were correctively assigned that gender. They would go through a different type of surgical intervention as an infant, assigned different types of hormonal treatment, seen differently by society as the result of these things.
In short, they do not bring up the gender they were assigned - often in form of infant genital mutilation - because they have an emotional attachment to the event, or to tout it around as a proof of "more genuine femininity"; they bring it up because it is relevant.
If a trans woman prefers to detach from what she was assigned at birth, she does not have to bring it up! In fact, I have met women who are perisex and have had sex reassignment surgery and who take estrogen... but do not identify as transgender. They feel like that label is irrelevant to their current identity!
Labels can be personal like that, and I feel like it is important to allow everyone a certain freedom of gender identification and gender expression.
I hope this was helpful!
You are a predator supporting predators.
That's a very normal thing to say to someone who was answering a question you asked...
I think you did not genuinely care about your intersex sisters. Looks like you were just making an inflammatory post trying to paint them as invaders in your space, in order to incite hatred.
I mean, I suppose I should have guessed by how you said they were just "trying to be special"... Typical phrase serving to other a group of oppressed people and divide the community.
But I hoped you were just misinformed, and not purposefully hateful.
You are a tar pit. I will be blocking you now.
ok... thats about as much of transfeminism tag as i can take today... bots, racists, bigots of all kinds and transphobes far as eye can see. i am tired of blocking and reporting.
ok so… brief ask for advice here, how do i stop my irl tme nonbinary friend from going down the transandrobro rabbit hole
The general advice is that people are more vulnerable to being radicalized when they feel isolated, unseen, targeted. So making sure that you are there for your friends, listening to them talk about their struggles without dismissing or minimizing them, and generally being supportive can make a difference.
But If you want more specific advice, I feel like some context is needed. Can you give an example of things your friend has reposted that have alarmed you?
Also, having seen your tags - can you explain why you feel like your friend is especially vulnerable to being radicalized?
The popular idea that women are *allowed* to express more emotion than men because they're stereotyped as overly emotional is so fucking stupid when you actually think about it for 2 seconds. It's like saying poc are allowed to be angry. Dude
Toxic masculinity's emotional repression has a slightly different flavor to it but can we be so fucking honest. Every man I've known will throw a hissy fit at a moment's notice they just don't like having emotionally vulnerable friendships with each other because they're scared of looking gay. Which is their own fault for being homophobic. Damn I wish men weren't allowed to talk about their feelings stfu
I agree that saying that women are allowed to be more emotional and that men repress all emotions are gross oversimplifications of the issue!
However, I feel like saying that it is "their own fault because they're scared of being gay" is a rather uncharitable way to put it, an not exactly accurate.
"Gay" is one of the things that men who experience "feminine" emotions can be perceived as, yes, but I feel like it is just one part of the category of things society views as "failed men". Gay men, gender-not-conforming men, trans women, men from cultures that do not have the same definition of masculinity all fall under this umbrella. And we all know what happens to this category of people: they can get assaulted, disowned by their mothers and fathers and lose their home, denied jobs and livelihoods, they can get raped and killed. I don't think that I need to say that nobody deserves to be treated this way!
Is it a good thing? No. Are they responsible for their actions? Yes.
But blaming only them shifts the focus from the binary-essentialist, cissexist society that shapes them into this since their childhood. Yes, society and not just the fathers/men in this society; mothers and women in positions of power are just as capable of enforcing the status quo as long as it benefits them (e.g. terfs, conservative women, tradwives, the likes of JKR and Caitlyn Jenner...).
This is why I think it is important to talk about these thing.
This is also what the infamous male loneliness epidemic is supposed to be about, when not co-opted by incels as the reason why they are owed emotional labor and sex from women: the importance to [edit: actually, I think I should look into the male loneliness thing a bit deeper before making statements like that. I made that assumption because this is the context where I've first seen the term]
This is also why it is important to let men talk bout the way they are raised to isolate themselves, so that they can deconstruct these expectations and learn how to process and express their emotions in a healthy way!
Why do some intersex TMEs call themselves "afab transfems"? De-masculinizing your body as someone c/afab is not transitioning towards femininity, it's moving _within_ femininity. You're cis! Perisex cis women get ffs and hrt too, you're not special.
I am not intersex, but I will try to summarize as best I can, so sorry if it is kind of vague!
This is because saying that it is transitioning *within* femininity is not really that accurate.
Being assigned a certain gender at birth is not equal to being that gender, right? It is an event that happened to them as an infant and it just means that "male" or "female" was written on a birth certificate when you were born.
For a perisex, cis woman this would mean that she gets raised as a woman, hormonally develops like one during puberty, and has the geenitalia that our cispatriarchial, binary-forcing society describes as female: an uterus, ovaries, a vagina, a clitoris, you get it. Society will perceive and treat her like a woman.
For an intersex afab woman, though, this will not be the same. Her genitals may be surgically altered at birth, or not. She may be put on puberty blockers or given HRT - which cis children do not go through. She may not develop the same way during puberty: she may grow facial hair, her voice may drop, her breasts and hips may not grow... In which case the society will not perceive her like a woman. She may be perceived as a man, or as a freak - and treated in ways that are more like how the world treats trans women.
She will have to take the steps necessary to transition from her perceived non-woman state towards femininity, which cis perisex women of her age do not need to be bothered to do. Because that is the difference.
You say that cis women go through HRT and ffs too, but do they do it in the same way? I mean, cis women may get vaginoplasty if they have, say, labia minora that are too long, or they can get plastic surgery if they don't like their facial traits, or they need to dilate because they suffer from vaginismus, or they get breast augmentation... but they don't go through these in the same way that trans women do. Their experience is different. And intersex afab women's experiences tend to be closer to those of trans women than to cis ones.
So then, calling an afab intersex woman cis would be less accurate, because it does not reflect her experience!
Does this mean that trans women who are perisex have to call themselves amab?
Intersex women people use these labels because it helps specify the experience that they have gone through, when they talk about said experience. An intersex person assigned female will not go through the same things that one assigned male does, especially if they were correctively assigned that gender. They would go through a different type of surgical intervention as an infant, assigned different types of hormonal treatment, seen differently by society as the result of these things.
In short, they do not bring up the gender they were assigned - often in form of infant genital mutilation - because they have an emotional attachment to the event, or to tout it around as a proof of "more genuine femininity"; they bring it up because it is relevant.
If a trans woman prefers to detach from what she was assigned at birth, she does not have to bring it up! In fact, I have met women who are perisex and have had sex reassignment surgery and who take estrogen... but do not identify as transgender. They feel like that label is irrelevant to their current identity!
Labels can be personal like that, and I feel like it is important to allow everyone a certain freedom of gender identification and gender expression.
I hope this was helpful!
i always see many anti-sjw types and hell, just the average misogynistic man, who would react to feminist men by saying “she’s not gonna fuck you bro” or some variation of it. because of course, a man can only see women as people if it could get him laid. of course there is a group of feminist men who do behave this way, but the assertion of JUST being a feminist to get laid or “picked” is absurd. so imagine my exasperation when i see people who genuinely believe in transandrophobia say the same thing about transmasc transfeminists.
“it wont ever be enough for them to see you as valid”
“you’re not gonna be picked”
“why are you throwing your brothers aside”
why is this always looked at from a lens of what you, the man, will get out of seeing women as people. why is not enough to just see trans women as your peers that are deserving of the same rights as you are, especially as other trans people?
Oh, I know the answer to this one!
Transfeminism as of lately has unfortunately become associated with the brand of radical feminism that believes that only transmisgoiny is a valid axis of oppression, and that everyone else is, an oppressor, and therefore, the enemy. These kinds of people post frankly transphobic opinions about trans men, covering it up in transfeminist language. It is getting difficult to talk about trans men's own oppression without running into somebody like that!
So there are trans men who have taken it to mean that this is what transfeminism is. That is obviously wrong in the same way that radical feminism is not representative of feminism in general!
Funnily enough(that is, pretty upsetting actually), I have seen examples of transfems with these radical beliefs harass the transfems who call out transphobic behaviours against everyone who is not a transfem with the same "they won't fuck you" line - "you won't get picked", "why would you throw your sisters aside", the word "tdickmatized" meaning "hypnotized by testosterone dick" because obviously only someone who wants a trans man to fuck them would take their side...
This is why it is important for transfeminists of all genders to be vocal about supporting one-another, and against the oppression of others.
to-do list
bother Denis about money and paysheets
make new resume
maybe make more resumes to send to stores etc
draw
clean the flat: kitchen; living room; bedroom; bathroom; hallway; windows; balconies
do groceries
bake pumpkin pie or muffins
make ice-cream
arts and crafts time
get computers fixed: laptop; desktop; phone
music recs for self for later:
the doors - the end bauhaus - bela lugosi's dead joy division - closer bauhaus - in the flat field the cure - pornography clan of xynox - medusa the damned - phantasmagoria the sisters of mercy - floodland siouxie and the banshees - juju
My Chemical Romance Metallica Evanescence Green Day The Mountain Goats Rammstein
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