you're telling me you can excuse V killing dozens of people everyday and being an absolute menace to NC, but being an absent father is where you draw the line LMFAO???
short talk below about my thoughts on this
Honestly, the best thing for the kids is to probably NOT be around him. You seriously telling me that you want Kerry Eurodyne around kids? Seriously? That man is suicidal, spiralling, mentally unstable, unwilling to change (for a time) and impulsive as hell. Not exactly an ideal guy to be raising kids with. Sometimes the best thing a parent can do for their kids is to not be around them, but that doesn't mean he flat out doesn't love them.
plus they got his house in Tokyo and a load of cash, I'm sure they're doing just fine without him.
COLLECTION OF EVERY SINGLE DUMB, NONSENSICAL, USUALLY MADE UP REASON I'VE SEEN PEOPLE HATE ON RIVER WARD FOR
These are all the ones I've personally seen. If anybody has any more, comment them and I'll add them because I am going to be defending this man to death. And I will inevitably, at some point, make another post debunking every single one of these reasons.
1) "He's a cop"
2) "His romance is forced"
3) "He's creepy"
4) "He's pushy"
5) "He preys on V"
6) "His romance scene felt like sexual assault"
7) "He invites V out on a date during The Hunt"
8) "He was turned on by the farm mission, that's why he hits on Valerie"
9) "You have to reject him twice before he stops"
10) "He's gay"
11) "He's copaganda"
12) "He told his family to hit on V for him"
13) "He assumes that you're dating after you do his first quest"
14) "He killed his ex-girlfriend"
15) "He took V to the water tower so that if V ever rejects him, he'd threaten to push them off"
16) "He roofied V's beer so that they'd be more suspectible to his advances"
17) "He's utterly incompetent as a detective because he needed V's help to find Randy"
18) "He's a dickwad of a boyfriend because he threatened Yawen"
19) "He's selfish for not going with V in the Nomad ending"
20) "His bike dream is the grossest thing ever"
21) "He lives in a trailer"
22) "Trauma bonding. It's a tactic to sleep with V and/or it shows how he's too emotionally vulnerable for his own good (derogatory)"
Defending River Ward x3 because I just argued with somebody over the stupidest reasoning for hating him I've ever heard.
They said they hate him because he invites V on a date during 'The Hunt'.
So called "inviting on a date" is this dialogue:
"I'll tell you about it over a beer sometime"
A dialogue option that, mind you, is said to both Valerie AND Vincent. This is nitpicking if I've ever seen it. They are genuinely grasping at straws and it is honestly incredible to see how far they'll go to find reasons to hate him.
This is my personal take on this topic. It contains theories, usage of direct quotes from him and such.
Some Cyberpunk fans believing Kerry when he said that the depression was all just a media stunt honestly confused me. "Oh, but Kerry said it was". Kerry also said "You shouldn't trust a word that comes out of my mouth". I feel like it's not even subtle that he was actually depressed and struggling. Of course, some of the pieces of 'evidence' are fan theory more than anything, but to me, at least, it's incredibly clear. He sent all of his staff away, was in the bathroom with a gun? Showering with a gun? Even if it was for 'safety' reasons why the bathroom? With you, or at least near you? You've got robot security outside. It's a very common fan theory that he was, at the very least, considering taking his life.
Edit note here also: When talking to Johnny about the rest of the band and the idea of a Samurai reunion, Johnny asks Kerry if he ever "leaves this house", to which Kerry responds "Nope". Which again, is another sign of Kerry's loneliness and struggling mental health, especially pairing this with the fact his mansion is incredibly messy.
There is also a text message exchange with Panam when she messages you to tell you about how she enjoys the new Us Cracks/Kerry Eurodyne track. See part of it below (note that this is one of two options you can pick when talking about it with Panam).
P: I remember hearing somewhere that he wanted to kill himself? End his career with a bang?
V: Well, that's not entirely untrue... Kerry needed help. And a friend, too.
And when he gifts you his gun during 'A Like Supreme', maybe I'm reaching here, but the dialogue goes like this:
K: The same gun I tried to shoot Johnny with
V: You mean me?
K: Yeah! And earlier... eh, nevermind.
What was he going to say? What was he doing earlier? Yes, this is a bit of a reach, but I hope that people can see where I'm coming from with this. I feel that his struggles with mental health are kinda clearly in your face (though I suppose some people struggle at reading inbetween the lines). He's stuck in the past even 50 years later. He's lonely. He puts hats on his robots. He doesn't clean his mansion. He redirects the blame to the media instead of being vulnerable himself, which honestly we see several times. During 'Rebel! Rebel!' when the conversation gets more serious, he dodges and leaves. I would honestly argue this for 'A Like Supreme' too if we're using my theory. And when he finally knows V better, he actually lets himself be more vulnerable (Off The Leash + Boat Drinks). He talks about being stuck in the mud, afraid of his own shadow. What mentally stable man is talking like that?
He's also very concerned about being at the top and being able to make it without Samurai, hence the rooftop conversation. I mean around his mansion you can find (negative) reviews of his album. It's a core part of his character.
This does not talk about whether or not he bombed Arasaka tower. This is an explanation of why his questionable memories do not make him a fraud.
I can sense the agendapunk fans who disagree with this, but truly and utterly, none of you understand the terminology you are using and it simply does not apply to Johnny.
The bombing of Arasaka Tower in itself, and the events that transpired, are a separate discussion and statements such as "Johnny is lying" and "Morgan Blackhand secretly nuked it" are extremely reductive, but I'll be talking about the first point here (and probably never the second, as cyberpunk fans tend to call me a 'larper' whenever I mention anything from the TTRPG).
First, let's define 'fraud' in the context people use it in for Johnny, since it seems people don't know what this term means and keep using it incorrectly. As defined by the Cambridge dictionary:
"Someone who deceives people by saying that they are someone or something they are not"
This is an intentional act. Emphasis on that.
From a super basic, diluted view of Johnny's memories, it seems that this term is applicable to him, but it's not that simple. Whilst Johnny is an unreliable narrator and his memories are questionable, he is not lying about them. His memories, what we experience, they are what Johnny TRULY believes happened and took place. He is not lying about it. It is not intentional.
Johnny has spent the last 50 years in Mikoshi stroking his own ego, and not to mention the damage to the chip integrity which was mentioned several times by V and Jackie. It also should be noted that this is a construct of Johnny. It is not actually Johnny. He is not at fault for the memories he has, and reducing it down to "Johnny is a lying fraud" is so incredibly incorrect. Misremembering things and being unreliable is not what makes somebody a fraud. What makes somebody a fraud is the active, intentional deception. That is not what Johnny did.
Mike essentially said that he embellished his memories and views himself as the star of the show, which still does not make him a fraud. That's the result of 50 years, once again, in Mikoshi stroking his own ego and replaying memories. He did it so much and so often that he FULLY believes that is what happened. That's not being a fraud. The only person he was trying to convince or deceive in Mikoshi was himself, and well, he completely succeeded as he believes that his memories are how it happened. Pair a big ego with regret and 50 years in soul prison, you're going to get flawed memories.
It annoys me quite a lot when people use the term fraud to describe Johnny as it really is not accurate.
This is just going to be about the main things I see people hating on River for. I'm going to be dismantling them and proving why these are not actually valid reasons to be completely slandering this man for.
Firstly, we have the "He's a cop" argument. Typically when I'm talking about River and somebody says this, I give up on the conversation because I can tell they paid zero attention to his questline. River being a cop is a core part of his storyline. His quests are quite literally showing you what happens to cops who try to fight and do good in a morally corrupt system. River, after discovering the truth about the mayor's death, attempts to reopen the case. This results in him getting suspended from the force. During 'The Hunt', we see River, who had previously been strictly law-abiding, going around the law to try and save his nephew. In his final quest, 'Following The River', he quits his job at the NCPD and tells us he's becoming a PI. A PI and a cop are not the same thing. He creates his own firm (a romanced River will text you asking for name suggestions) so that he can actually help people. He realises that he cannot do that in the corrupt NCPD system, and any effort he does to do so will not have the results he wants. Yes, it is slightly naive thinking from River that the NCPD would be morally sound, but people don't get nearly as angry at other characters for displaying naivity.
Argument two, "His romance is forced". This is another one that bamboozles me. It is purely double standards and, in the way I see it, people thinking that just because they're not attracted to a character, that makes the romance forced. I have also observed this same thing being said about Kerry, but I haven't seen it being said about Panam or Judy nearly half as much. I do not think that people even understand the terminology they are using, since if they did, they should be saying this about Panam, not River. Every single romance is programmed to flirt with V in some way during their final quest, it was simply unfortunate for River that CDPR's favouritism came up and they only gave him 3 quests, unlike the others who have more. To call River's romance forced and then say nothing abour Panam's is hypocritical. During almost every single one of her quests there is some option to flirt with her and she flirts with you, but of course, majority of River haters are Panam fans. Since they're attracted to her, they don't view her romance as being forced, at least this is how I've come to see it. There is nothing forced about River's romance that you couldn't say was also forced for the other romances. All that he does is ask if you reciprocate his feelings. He does not push if you reject him. You do not have to reject him twice (I argued with somebody about this, and they confessed that they didn't know whether that was actually true, so yet again another example of people making stuff up in their heads about him so that they can hate).
The third and final one I'll be discussing is "He made his family hit on V for him". Sounds crazy. Real thing somebody said. This is simply untrue and shows me that people did not look at his reactions. His sister outs his crush on V without his consent. He had nothing to do with it. And then the kids, being kids, do a vote. The moment is supposed to be awkward, slightly cringe and embarrassing. It's a normal thing for kids to do. If you look at River during this moment you cam very clearly see how embarrassed he is about it (note that no matter what you answer here it changes nothing about his romance. This is separate to River and had nothing to do with him, it was kids being kids).
These are the three main things I see people slandering him for, and I'm honestly getting tired of it. You don't have to like him, but stop making stuff up and purposefully misunderstanding the entire point of his character simply for reasons to hate him. I'm not a fan of Panam, yet you don't see me making stuff up about her and slandering her under every video that mentions her. No romance is objectively the worst or the best.
Warning: This post is very long so don't read if you don't want to, since this is about River and is not the kind of post that slanders him. If you still choose to read in spite of this heads-up, don't complain "I'm not reading all that" or go be an ass in general when you've already been warned.
I know that this topic has been brought up by others before but I myself also have to express how baffled I am at why people think that River was written to promote copaganda. I've had this thought for a while now since I played the game this February, but what incited me into making this post was a message I saw on a server this morning:
"river was only put in the game because of the CIA & NSA intervening in CD projekt red's development to conduct a psyop"
I don't know what's the term people use for the polar opposite of rose-tinted glasses, but whatever that is, that is what River's haters were wearing whenever they are talking about him.
What is even more vexing is the hypocrisy in hating River for being a cop (and one who can eventually quit, mind) despite other fictional characters affiliated with the police or the government being immensely popular, with one of the most popular examples being Leon Kennedy, who started as a cop before becoming a government agent.
And from what I've gathered, and is something other posts have also mentioned, those who loathe and badmouth River - in the same vein - like Takemura, even though he advocates for corporations and chooses to stay loyal to the Arasaka family (specifically Saburo and Hanako) in spite of being aware that their endgame goals are the farthest thing from noble, and even they are aware of him being someone who puts loyalty and honor above any and all reason. And despite his admittedly hilarious moments with V and the fact that he never tries to dupe them, he doesn't think highly of them either and derisively calls them a thief on more than one occasion.
Yet with River, these same people don't try to even objectively take into consideration how he ends up leaving the police force because he is someone who genuinely wants to do good but realizes that goal will go nowhere in an establishment as corrupt as the NCPD. Yes, you can say he's idealistic and naive to a fault, but he does acknowledge this and learn from it. But of course, his haters are so intent on keeping focus on the fact that he's introduced as a cop and use that to mock and deride him to hell and back.
Those two examples of double standard treatment (Leon and Takemura) are only the tip of the iceberg. Granted, liking/hating/not having much of an opinion on each character is typically a case-to-case basis. You can like this criminal character but then dislike another criminal character because of their differing personalities or generally because of how they're portrayed or written differently, among other reasons. Even then, it's telling that all in all, a good portion of the supporting cast of Cyberpunk 2077 - objectively speaking - includes characters who loyally serve either corporations or the government (either wholeheartedly or otherwise), had sold out to them in the past, or is generally a militaristic person. And some of them are divisive among the fanbase, but River tends to get singled out negatively (and rather vitriolically at that), and the purpose of his character is to glorify the police and/or the government.
It's not just River; I noticed through posts on various platforms (primarily Discord, Reddit and Twitter) that certain other characters in Cyberpunk 2077 - as long as they have a badge - tend to get ragged on immediately due to the real-life opinion of ACAB, which ends up bleeding into a biased perception of fictional characters. To name a few:
Ayden Daniels. Aside from being an NCPD badge, he's not shown to have a pleasant personality (from what we see in his interactions with V at least) and gets very upset at V if they save his life (because saving him inevitably results in some of the medical equipment they klepped from Arasaka getting damaged), and is decried for being more corrupt than the actual corrupt cops because - as described in his bio - he's a "pragmatic badge" who's willing to forge evidence if it means criminals who otherwise would've gotten away ends up getting sent to prison instead. And yet, if other vigilante or at least non-law enforcement characters pull a similar stunt to capture elusive bastards, it's all good. Okay thenā¦
I've seen some call Mendez an utter POS, even though the worst trait about him is his well-intentioned but undoubtedly poor attempt of showing tough love - and he clearly shows guilt and regret for his words if Barry commits suicide. While he definitely needed a push in properly empathizing with Barry, when told about the latter's friend Andrew actually being a pet tortoise and that Barry kept mum about that little detail because he thought Mendez would make fun of him, Mendez actually realizes just how bad his friend's situation is, which allows him to reach out to him better by recounting a experience about witnessing a horrific crime but not being able to do anything about it because the culprit had connections to higher-ups (which Barry had also gone through, and it's why he left, to begin with).
However, there is one cop character who I noticed that still gets dunked onā¦ but not as often or as viciously. This character is Anna Hamill: another rare "good cop" character like River who her fellow cops want dead because her investigations ended up rocking the boat a bit too much. Even Regina, who was hired to have her offed, would prefer that V handles the situation peacefully because Anna is no criminal; at worst, she's just someone with a good and steady set of morals and integrity, meaning she's someone who doesn't belong in a place Night City.
Indeed, most do not opt to kill her and just talk her down or tell her to leave the city. Which is surprising given the vitriol that the few other cops that aren't corrupt get a lot of flak, and again, she is similar to River in being a rare kind of badge that genuinely wants to do good. This makes me wonder: if River was in her exact position, and it was up to the player to choose what to do with him, would he have received the same leniency?
The way I see it, the essence of the quest with Anna Hamill more or less mirrors the development of River's questline, and the Aesop it means to impart about how good intentions won't get you far if you work with the police, and they might even turn against you for that. To recap:
After investigating enough about Mayor Rhyne's death, which he's able to do so thanks to V (due to being hired by the Peralezes to look further into the matter), he decides to rock the boat by trying to reopen the investigation even though Detective Han warns him that all he'll get is quite the ugly backlash. And as "The Hunt" would show, he gets suspended for his efforts.
Having been suspended, which means he doesn't have anyone in the force to turn to, he asks V for their help in his search for his nephew. In "I Fought the Law", he's establsihed as mostly rule-abiding since he - without a warrant - can't personally enter the Red Queen's Race club to investigate the scene; though he does get around it by sending V, a merc, instead. But in "The Hunt", where he mentions that he's officially not allowed to do anything about the case with Peter Pan, the fact that he's breaking and entering the NCPD lab shows his willingness to act outside the law if necessary.
When River and V get caught red-handed by Yawen, River doesn't even show any disapproval if V tells Yawen that the police does jack to help the public ("Feed 'em analysis, they shit out failure.") and will even counter Yawen's accusation that it's that kind of thinking why Night City is lawless by essentially calling her a hypocrite (since she's all but outright stated to have cheated in her medical exams).
If V helps him to the end, River proves that like Anna (in a potential ending where she goes on a last stand attacking those who set her up), he's also capable of doling out some understandable vigilante justice by expressing his intention to kill Anthony Harris. V can either tell him to go for it or to not even bother since Harris, at his current state (brain-dead, under constant police watch, will never fully recover if he wakes up, and is also likely to be executed if he does come to), isn't worth the effort and River should focus his efforts on watching over his family instead, something that River does see the point of.
In another ending to the gig with Anna, which is only possible with a Nomad V, Anna can be told that Night City doesn't deserve her and she's better off with the nomads, to which she'll take their advice and join the Aldecaldos. River doesn't do that, per se, but he does come to a similar realization that continuing to work with the NCPD isn't worth the effort anymore and leaves, planning to become a private detective instead. And this is notable character development on his part since in your very first chat with him, he didn't have the highest opinion of PIs.
In addition, the quest involving the Semimaru has him say this outright when you manage to get the car and find out the history of its users (where some other NCPD cops use it to run over whoever they don't like), to which he then tells you to have the car and he'll ensure that the NCPD won't be looking for it any time soon.
"I know what justice looks like - sometimes you gotta find it outside the established system. If the rulebook's written by the corrupt, what's the point in following it?"
So to return to part about why Anna, even though some still do get dismissive of her or are notably blase about her, doesn't have it as bad as the other few non-corrupt cops introduced in the game. This is where we take into consideration the difference them and Anna: that being she's a female cop, and also has an attractive-looking face, which qualifies her as what's known as a "fair cop".
While many fans don't want to admit it, the attractiveness and "availability" of a character plays a huge role in how quickly or easily the audience can be willing to either excuse them or sympathize with them, and sometimes simply "flipping the coin" (or rather, switching their gender and sometimes, even their preference/orientation) can quickly change the fandom's opinion of them in the blink of an eye. This is a hill I'll be dying on, but I'm sure that if, say, Panam and Judy's genders were reversed, they wouldn't be as popular as they are now. And likewise, if River was genderbent, he wouldn't have as much haters.
Now as for the claim that the game is promoting copaganda, it definitely is not. I even have to clarify that I'm not speaking in defense of the NCPD. It is an undeniable fact that the NCPD as a whole is corrupt and inefficient, with their current police commissioner even making a deal with Scavengers to eliminate homeless people (this shows up in one of the many NCPD gigs you can do across Night City). So the public not thinking highly of them isn't without reason, to the point that even Ziggy Q (who is a blatant corpo-shiller, mind you) preys on this fact for publicity.
But like in any kind of corrupt/evil organization, whether they're affiliated with the law or not, there are members who embrace the corruption and there are those who don't give in to it and even attempt to fight it, even if it's an uphill battle, or if that won't do anything, they leave and go do their own thing instead - the very latter of which is what River does at the end of his questline. Yet to this day people still use the reasoning of "He's a cop, so yuck!" to basically boo and throw tomatoes at him nonstop.
Heck, the game itself has V and Johnny acknowledge that River is a decent badge, the latter's dislike of River aside.
In "I Fought the Law", V expresses skepticism when River reveals why he showed up at a certain press conference (where a cyberpsycho snuck their way in and attempted to kill Mayor Rhyne): mainly because he heard about the cyberpsycho's next actions and was attempting to thwart them. Sure, he got awarded with a medal for it later, but he didn't know that at the time; as far as he was concerned, it wasn't an active case he was assigned to, and he had nothing to gain from it. He took the initiative to help just because he could. V even notes that a cop - let alone a person - in Night City doing the right thing just because isn't exactly a common occurrence.
V: So you saw him as a potential threat, decided to warn the mayor? Just like that, 'causeā¦ ya got a good heart?
River: Make it sound like that's somethin' to be ashamed of.
V: Ashamed - no. Just not somethin' you see every day.
Other posts have already expressed this, but if you think that "Johnny hates River so that means he's trash" is a valid reason, then you're just grasping at invisible straws. Johnny, being Johnny, doesn't like River on principle, and even this is one of the pettier cases. He's a badge, something which immediately won't sit well with a chaotic and anarchistic terrorist like Johnny. And their personalities couldn't be any more different, which means they're unlikely to be friends if they ever meet.
But that's about it, really. Where Johnny can get rather savage about Judy herself and about and helping her with both Evelyn and the other dolls, the worst he says about River is that he's a cop (or eventually an ex-cop) and gripes that V still continues to hang out with him, but even he doesn't argue that River is a rare kind of cop in a conversation with male V during "The Hunt":
Johnny: Cops seem to like you. Careful this one doesn't start sendin' you out for donuts.
V: Whaa? No, River's all right.
Johnny: For a cop, you mean.
V: Not every cop's a bastard, just like not every rockerboy's a narcissistic dickhead.
Johnny: Dunno, V. You ever actually met a rockerboy who didn't fit that description?
V: All in allā¦ No.
All he can complain about if V and River sleep together is that he, being in V's body, experiences the whole thing as well ("Can't believe you're making me fuck a cop."). Yet even I'm sensing that he wouldn't have made that complaint if River was a woman, considering his reaction if V accepts a certain proposition from Meredith Stout (who is actively working for a corpo).
Meredith Stout invited you over to her room at the No-Tell Motel? Shit, V, don't know whether to give you props or talk you out of itā¦ Either way, you're telling me your secret for picking up corpo chicks.
So at that point, it's obvious that he's nitpicking about V and River getting together when he can't come up with anything else more cutting/insulting to say.
Honestly, I can go on and on but this post is meant to focus on the topic about River being unfairly disliked and maligned (almost) solely on the basis that he's a badge, and I've said what I can say.
And no, I'm not expecting everyone to be his fan instead. Every character has their fans, their haters, and those in-between. But there's a difference between simply disliking a character and outright slandering them, the latter of which seems to be the unlucky recipient of both then and even now. There's also a difference in a solid character who just wasn't given enough content and a badly-written character, and River's haters have this tendency to deliberately conflate the two.
There's no doubt that there are other characters and works that are meant to promote copaganda, but River and Cyberpunk 2077 in general is very obviously not among them.
one of the most underrated but brilliant parts of cyberpunk that i have been admiring as i get close to the end of my second playthrough is how v's dissolution into johnny is so innocently integrated into the gameplay as a series of fun silly or mechanically powerful loot drops. on a gameplay level its a fun incentive to do side quests! look! you can get johnny's super powerful and sleek gun! how fun! you can get his unique custom paint job car! how cool! you can get a samurai replica jacket like the one v wore in the game's promotions! how silly! you can find his pants and shoes and glasses and look just like him! how sweet! he gives you his dog tags! you might not think twice about it as the player. it's just a bunch of cosmetic quest rewards, after all. but... in world? on a story level? what does it look like to vic? to misty? when v shows up for some cyberware upgrades driving johnny's car, in johnny's pants, in johnny's jacket, in johnny's glasses, in johnny's shoes, with johnny's gun at their hip and johnny's name around their neck? is that still v in there? do they even know what it looks like? do they even care? is that still v in there? is that still v in there? it seems like just a fun little easter egg but what does it look like to the people who are watching their friend dissolve into someone else in front of their eyes?
