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@whydothistoourselves
Mmmmm nope, I do think that when you make these extreme claims about someone you need to back it up with basic evidence. This is a cop out, if a person can't find the evidence then 'you just aren't trying hard enough to find it' and 'you just aren't doing the work, lazy!' and there's infinite deniability instead of ever being able to consider the other option which is... the evidence does not exist. Also baffled by why he adds racist as a claim seemingly at random... he is white.
the bite model was made by a transphobe
Yep and I never said it was the perfect way of analyzing anything, that is silly. Though I caution that wholesale discounting anything made by a transphobe you will be excluding a lot of foundational theory.
The key is to explain why this thing being made by a transphobe matters- in this case you can just say 'the person who made this framework has used it in transphobic ways to describe being transgender as cult behavior'.
Do you think crippled peeper is a cult leader?
No, I don't think he is a cult leader. I think that calling him that both places him in a postion of more power than he actually has and treats a pattern of behavior that is fairly common as something unique and odd.
I think that this is a common pattern that goes under addressed and under discussed- a very hurt marginalized person speaks online about their experiences, they get a following who relate, who maybe for the first time feel like someone Gets It. But that hurt, marginalized person wasn't exactly trained on what to do when you get a following. It can feel empowering, it can be easy to perpetuate the cycle of abuse.
So then when anyone challenges their authority it tips them into fight-or-flight (a state of being many marginalized people more or less live in all the time) they lash out, they are activated, their following who has shared trauma experiences is also activated and feels attacked, they validate and lash out too. That can feel even More empowering to the person, unfortunately if reinforces the behavior and the cycle continues. There will be people who jump ship, who realize the lashing out has gone too far, and then there will be people who ride the activation-lash out-release cycle with the person every time. Over time a community can form that is myopic, that can only see their own struggles as real, because validating anyone external to the group means addressing the way they've treated other marginalized people.
This is very much not exclusive to crippled peeper. Off the top of my head, plaidos and tara knight have similar patterns, but that is only two of many.
It doesn't excuse the behavior, but I think it is important that we recognize that these are not people who are over all privileged, they are hurting, have been hurt, and get caught in a vicious cycle. Social media ends up encouraging this cycle in terrible ways.
why are these asks going around. what the hell
I made this post and this post, and someone got ticked off. I admit I probably overstated my case, but I do still believe in the points I made.
Ohhh that would make sense, I had no clue why I was being asked this. Also ya I do understand your reasoning, I think that the word cult has had a shift in recent years to a more expansive understanding. I guess I try to be careful with it for the reasons I said before of not mystifying behavior that is fairly common, and due to the weight the word still carries for many people. I think the BITE model actually describes aspects of abusive social cycles in general. Moreover I find for reaching out to people who are being mistreated in high control groups, it is better received as 'you deserve better, they are hurting you, and many people have experienced this same pattern of mistreatment' than 'you are in a cult'.
Comparing someone who has been the subject of a targeted ableist harassment campaign for months from inside the community to Plaidos is kind of fucked up, especially with zero mention of that ableism whatsoever. Over the past couple of weeks I've come to learn that the abled people in this community don't see ableism as a real form of bigotry or axis of oppression at all. "Listen to oppressed people about their oppression first and foremost" until the oppressed people in question are disabled people. Then suddenly Ableism isn't real and we're all making it up because someone you like did it.
Everyone who has refused to criticise TFSD at all throughout this just because Crippled-Peeper hasn't been reacting to it like a shining citizen is identical to everyone who worships people like Plaidos, you just found a minority to shit on that isn't you. You've shown disabled transmascs very clearly that we aren't welcome or safe in this community.
Hi, I'm disabled too, so the guilting behavior won't work on me because I know that being disabled isn't a free pass to say awful things about another person for days, weeks, months on end.
I'm talking about the pattern of behavior, and I'm almost certain plaidos would also say she has been the victim of harrassment campaigns (and to some degree, probably has). It's about the certainty that the person is in the right due to previous harms done to them and the encouragement of community surrounding them.
I will also ask, do you have any evidence that crippled-peeper's claims made about pup such as calling the police/reported him to authorities?
Can you tell me what you believe tfsd did that warranted this intensity of reaction and provide me evidence?
If so, provide the evidence.
And do you think that this is acceptable ways to treat anyone, like, ever?
If so, then you are far more unsafe to disabled trans mascs than I, because you don't have a line of acceptable behavior, you will let someone hurt another to any extent if you think it is justified.
Do you think crippled peeper is a cult leader?
No, I don't think he is a cult leader. I think that calling him that both places him in a postion of more power than he actually has and treats a pattern of behavior that is fairly common as something unique and odd.
I think that this is a common pattern that goes under addressed and under discussed- a very hurt marginalized person speaks online about their experiences, they get a following who relate, who maybe for the first time feel like someone Gets It. But that hurt, marginalized person wasn't exactly trained on what to do when you get a following. It can feel empowering, it can be easy to perpetuate the cycle of abuse.
So then when anyone challenges their authority it tips them into fight-or-flight (a state of being many marginalized people more or less live in all the time) they lash out, they are activated, their following who has shared trauma experiences is also activated and feels attacked, they validate and lash out too. That can feel even More empowering to the person, unfortunately if reinforces the behavior and the cycle continues. There will be people who jump ship, who realize the lashing out has gone too far, and then there will be people who ride the activation-lash out-release cycle with the person every time. Over time a community can form that is myopic, that can only see their own struggles as real, because validating anyone external to the group means addressing the way they've treated other marginalized people.
This is very much not exclusive to crippled peeper. Off the top of my head, plaidos and tara knight have similar patterns, but that is only two of many.
It doesn't excuse the behavior, but I think it is important that we recognize that these are not people who are over all privileged, they are hurting, have been hurt, and get caught in a vicious cycle. Social media ends up encouraging this cycle in terrible ways.
Ain't a revolutionary take but yeesh some people care way more about saying the Right Words than they do about actual equity, decency, or justice.
I’m telling you as a trans man that we already have descriptors for bigotry against trans men (misogyny, transphobia, transmasc phobia) and we don’t need to fabricate a new term that 1) validates the existence of general Androphobia which is a stupid idea, and 2) has grown a community around it that is cozy with TERFs and is almost 100% dedicated to ragging on trans women for not being good enough allies to us. This is not useful analysis. It’s entirely resentment based. Trans men in academia are writing actual useful shit about us. You are destroying good will between transmascs and for no good reason based on arguments with random women on fucking tumblr most of whom did nothing but express annoyance with your behavior, which you absolutely deserve for the way you and your friends treat them and speak about them. Pack it the fuck up.
I simply think that people should be able to choose how to describe their own experiences. You, random anonymous person, as a trans man, can choose too, idc. If word choice destroys the good will then there was never any good will to begin with (I do believe that external to these corners of the internet actually trans unity is still going strong, citation: my own community organizing). Idk who you think are 'my friends' here and like, it's fair to have problems about how some of the people who frequently talk about the word behave for sure, but that is not unique to transandrophobia- I think people who are constantly posting about any topic tend to lose the plot in interestingly bad ways and drown out other voices.
Can you point me towards some of the 'actually useful shit' trans men in academia are writing? I'm not saying that sarcastically, I am actually curious who you would recommend reading?
Women have invented many terms that relate to men in Feminist theory. Nothing wrong with that - that's not an argument, that's just vulgar Standpoint Epistemology, which is a logical fallacy
It's not about inventing words related to men, it's about saying to an oppressed group 'no, I don't like your word for you, I'm going to use my word for you instead'. It's not about a marginalized group having Special Knowledge, it's about courtesy. Also, sorry, I do think epistemic injustice exists.
(which okay if we are going to evoke standpoint epistemology then that is going to open up a whole other can of worms about how some transfeminists online do theory)
Standpoint theory isn't a fallacy though? It's a framework.
I've seen some critiques of it- mostly essentialism but I think some people got the wrong idea about it due to conservatives co-opting to hold up a single person in a minority group that is saying 'ya ur right we are bad and stupid' and pretending that person is uniquely qualified to say that. Idk where anon was getting the idea the framework itself is a fallacy and I should've phrased my answer better to combat that and not play into their logic. imo it is very important to have understanding of positionality and in this world we live in that treats the perspective of those in power as the Ultimate Truth while trying to silence/ignore/erase the voices of marginalized people I don't know that there is a framework that could actually go overboard on prioritizing voices of those with lived experience.
Women have invented many terms that relate to men in Feminist theory. Nothing wrong with that - that's not an argument, that's just vulgar Standpoint Epistemology, which is a logical fallacy
It's not about inventing words related to men, it's about saying to an oppressed group 'no, I don't like your word for you, I'm going to use my word for you instead'. It's not about a marginalized group having Special Knowledge, it's about courtesy. Also, sorry, I do think epistemic injustice exists.
(which okay if we are going to evoke standpoint epistemology then that is going to open up a whole other can of worms about how some transfeminists online do theory)
Why is he allowed to go "nope I have no culpability in this and you all are sheep for believing it" but also refers to every negative anon he gets as if lilith sent them? Once again, the hypocrisy is strong in this one folks.
To people who still support crippled-peeper's behavior... do you just believe all the things he says or do you just look past it? Where is the evidence?
if you say you care about ableism and uplifting and supporting your transmasc brothers and siblings and then turn a blind eye while abled people attempt to involuntarily institutionalize a disabled trans man (who was not a danger to himself or anyone else, not that it matters), more than once, over tumblr dot com kink discourse, and you defend the abled person because “pup’s one of the only good transfems on here,” that’s all the proof i need to know that your activism is hollow and rotten
@unimpressiveboyfriend so do you think this is an acceptable reaction?
And do you think this is not ableism when it comes from him?
And what proof do we actually have that tfsd called for baker acting him?
Are we just taking a guy that behaves like this at his word?
C'mon... the irony, the hypocrisy, it is almost comedic if it weren't for the harm he has caused.
some MFs on this site really took 'transmascs need to get meaner' to mean 'let's be horrifically transmisogynistic toward our transfem allies' and it shows.
Hey this is so not okay, at all and if you think it is you are not a safe person to be around.
There is not anything that pup could have done that would warrant saying something like that and ig if you disagree then by all means drop the reciepts, not just random allegations, hard proof because also I have yet to see any.
seriously though it is weird that transndrobro types bristle so much against transemasculation as a framework, given that it tends to line up pretty well with the descriptions of transndrophobia that aren't reheated mra talking points.
I mean I think it is actually fair to have issues with someone external to a community come in and say 'no, no, silly you're using the wrong word, here we'll help you'. Does that not seem a tad bit demeaning? Transemasculation is kinda a fine term if it weren't only introduced by people who are not trans masc in a very demeaning manner. The problem with it being women who came up with it isn't a misogyny thing like you're implying, it is about them being external to the group that is experiencing it.
Do you think that it is okay to tell any other marginalized group that you get to pick their language for them?
I think that referring to intersex people as 'edge cases' makes you seem entirely unserious and ignorant.
