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I think people don't realize that there's a difference between a word that had origins in hatred (queer, dyke, etc), and dickshits using a word created by the people it applies to to spread love and acceptance and community (gay, lesbian, etc) as an insult
Youre absolutely right anon and the fact that people cant understand this very simple concept is very concerning
if a woman claimed she was straight because she only experiences sexual and romantic attraction to men but regularly desires to sleep with women and be in romantic relationships with them and maybe does both, we would say she isnāt straightāthat sheās either bi or a lesbian with a lot of internalized shit going on.
you cannot de-couple this womanās sexual and romantic desire towards other women from āsexual and romantic attractionā when a facet of attraction is desire. you cannot say she lacks sexual and romantic attraction towards women when she desires them sexually and romantically. while it would be wrong for strangers to butt in and tell her sheās a liar for saying sheās straight, we mustā¦ recognize that she isnāt. no matter what she calls herself, she isnāt actually straight.
she is bisexual or a lesbian with some shit to work through.
likewise, if an ace claims they do not experience sexual attraction but they do have sexual desires towards other people, we must insistā¦ thereās something internalized happening here. and i donāt think itās a coincidence that most aces are women, lgbt, or neurodivergentāgroups that are all desexualized and/or punished for having sexual desires. as much as society pushes all people to have/desire sex (heterosexual sex, often with people of the same social categories), it punishes the desire for sex.
not even ādeviantā sexājustā¦ any sex. western society desires women who have sex but donāt want it for themselves, theyāre just doing it for men (except if the men WANT them to want it, then theyāll just want the women to say they like it, even if they donāt as the epidemic of fake orgasms tells us). in a society of ālove the sinner, hate the sin,ā LGBT people are allowed to be LGBT so long as they donāt act on it or desire it too audibly. and there are eugenics-lite thinking about neurodivergent and disabled people having sexāthat itās gross or fine so long as theyāre not having kids or whatever else.
if you are asexual but claim to desire sex or aromantic and claim to desire romantic relationships, i really think you should spend a lot of time wondering what you think attraction is, if you would apply that mode of thinking to actual sexual orientations (ie the straight woman who isnāt sexually/romantically attracted to women but fucks and dates them), and how sexual attraction divorced from action/desire/intention can be socially meaningful/be the cause of oppression.
iād also start wondering on whether or not youāve ever meant a cishet ace who was both a man and neurotypical and why theyāre so damn rare.
If you still donāt know understand that thereās a difference between sexual attraction and sexual arousal then youāre beyond hope, my friend.
ālikewise, if an ace claims they do not experience sexual attraction but they do have sexual desires towards other people, we must insistā¦ thereās something internalized happening here.ā or, and bare with me here, desire (which is to want something) and attraction are not the same things. i am aromantic and i desire a romantic relationship, but no matter what, iām not going to be able to feel romantic attraction. hereās a suggestion, op, maybe you should stop deciding what our identities are for us
Desire is a facet of sexual attraction. Desiring a romantic relationship with a specific person is romantic attraction attraction. Literally how else would you define it?
ha. accept itās not. i donāt feel romantic attraction. i want to. but i donāt.
you can want something without feeling attraction. they often go hand in hand, but are not mutually exclusive.
you should really stop acting like you know more about peopleās identities than they do, itās not a good look.
How do you define romantic attraction if not ādesiring a romantic relationship with someone?ā
This is my second time asking, please answer me.
romantic attraction is feeling romantically attracted to another person. wanting a romantic relationship is wanting a romantic relationship. you can want something and not have it. you can want what a romantic relationship entails without experiencing romantic attraction. thatās literally the reason why our community coined the term queerplatonic.
HSODGHDSGĀ THATāS NOT HOW YOU DEFINE THINGS
āRomantic attraction is attraction that is romantic.ā Holy shit.
What is it to āfeel romantically attracted to another person?ā
Also, if you desire what a romantic relationship entails with a personā¦ you want to be romantically involved with them. Congrats, thatās romantic attraction. Thereās nothing queer OR platonic about that, unless itās with the same gender.
yes, i would like to be romantically involved with them. would like to. but iām not. because iām AROMANTIC you fuck. i š donāt š feel š romantic š attraction š
and unfortunately, no amount of you telling me i do, is going to change or āfixā that.
to want something is not the same as to feel something. itās not the same as to have something. aros who hate romance are aromantic. aros who love romance are aromantic.
we donāt go around calling lesbians who donāt hate men straight girls, because they arenāt, and that would be grossly stereotyping all lesbians as hating men. lesbians are still lesbians no matter how they feel about men. itās literally the exact same thing with aros and romance and aces and sex.
you can want to have intimacy with another person without wanting to be in a romantic relationship with them. thatās why we coined the term queerplatonic. thatās literally why we made the term. a qpr has what a romantic relationship entails, without the romantic attraction. thatās why itās so often compared to friendships, as people canāt tell the difference. like iāve heard people call qprs friendships but never have i heard people try to claim theyāre romantic relationships, thatās a new one.
talking over aros and aces, redefining their identities AND their terminology. what a charmer you are.
Me telling you āDesiring romantic relationships with specific people so that you may do things you consider to be romantic with them is romantic attractionā isnāt trying to fix you, can you maybe tamp down on the victim complex for a total of 30 seconds?
If you want a romantic relationship with someoneāa specific person, not just in generalāthat is romantic attraction. If I looked at a girl and said āI want to date her/do date-like things with her,ā I am attracted to her. I am romantically attracted to her. Because, again, that is what romantic attraction is. If I said, āI just wanna date!ā that isnāt romantic attraction because it isnāt aimed at anyone.
Hating men is not a facet of being a lesbian. Wanting a romantic relationship with someoneā¦ is a facet of romantic attraction.
Wanting intimacy with another person that isnāt romantic is called friendship. Using a violent slur used in the murder and assault of LGBT doesnāt make it anything more or less than friendship. If you want to do things you consider to be romantic with that personā¦ then you are romantically attracted to them. Just like if you want to do sexual acts with another person, you are sexually attracted to them. Itās that fucking simple.
Again, please define what romantic attraction is. Not āAttraction is romantic,ā which is just repeating the term āromantic attractionā in different order, give me an actual definition.
Legitimate *pro bono legal services* donāt exist without a good reason. In a few of the exmormon groups Iām in youāll see regular posts saying stuff like āLook what my lawyer sent me today!ā with a pic of their resignation confirmation letter from the church.
You know. Just stuff that a normal average church that is definitely not actually a cult would do. ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ
š
As an ex-mormon, Iām gonna look the fuck into this. I want nothing to do with the church that shaped so much toxicity about my self image and my sexual orientation.
Not sure if any followers need this but if you do, here you go.
Everyone should be able to choose their religious beliefs and community, and leave any that they find does not work for them.
Ex mormon here - this guyās legit. The Mormon holds your files for eternity, and when they find out that youāve moved to a new area, they will send members and missionaries from that region to harass you. I know this sounds like dystopic bullshit, but they followed my father through three moves before he rejoined the church.
Also ex mormon here who used this. Itās a ridiculously helpful service that is incredibly easy to use. They keep you updated throughout the whole process, and itās totally worth it since the church doesnāt get to keep all your private information and pass it around once you resign :)
tbh the saddest part about the ace discourse is now actual lgbt people donāt want to participate in lgbt safe spaces cause they know the aces/mogai/other bullshit will be there and preach their rhetoric
yeah it be like that
straight dude: im not homophobic im ok with gay guys as long as they dont hit on me *nervous laughter*
lesbian: i dont want straight guys hitting on me
straight dude:
straight dude: WH,AT THE FU CK
I refuse to entertain this inclusionist/exclusionist language. Youāre either a cishet apologist or you arenāt. THAT is what we are discussing: if you are a cishet apologist.
The REAL āāādebateāāā here is entirely about LGBT people being harassed into allowing straight people into their spaces and communities. What is happening is people making convoluted excuses to diminish their privileges without any repercussions. The arguments basically boil down to: āA cis straight person can be LGBT IF they donāt want to have sex.ā Or āA cis straight person can be LGBT IF they have sex but donāt fall in love.ā
Similarly they argue: āif a cis person is attracted to no one, and never experiences the kind of attraction that would make them a direct target of homophobia, I think they can still be LGBT.ā
And guess what? All of those arguments are garbage, 2/3 of them are explicitly cishet apologia and the other third is just continued argument to have people not facing transphobia or homophobia dare to call themselves LGBT.
This isnāt about inclusion vs exclusion this is about making excuses for the oppressors of LGBT folks continuing to oppress them. This isnāt about inclusion vs exclusion, this is about a bunch of mostly white people playing oppression dress up with no real societal or institutional stakes or risks. This is about people who are willing to boil down the privileges of being a cisgender heterosexual to whether or not they have sex or fall in love, as if either thing is persecuted when itās felt by hetero-attracted people.
Miss me with this āIām an inclusionist!!!ā Nonsense.
Youāre a cishet apologist with a self-created victim complex and zero understanding of the ramifications of real-world oppression.
good post op
You do realize that the LGBT acronymā¦keeps going, right?
Yeah I include anyone who experiences homophobia or transphobia so that could include someone two spirit or nonbinary or pansexual but I say LGBT because itās concise and universally understood. So if you donāt experience homophobia or transphobia you are not LGBT.
Itās pretty straightforwards. It doesnāt matter if I say LGBT or LGBTPN because either way Iām only talking about people affected by homophobia or transphobia directly and personally which includes LGBT aces or Aros but not aroace people or cishet aces or Aros.
So you donāt think aro aces experience discrimination because whatā you canāt spot them from a distance? I thought I was aro ace before I learned the difference between romantic and sexual attraction, and I KNOW the cruelty I experienced wasnāt singular. Youāre limiting your definition of harassment to homophobia or transphobia, so I guess that explains your inability to see this, but youāre missing out on the fact that eschewing relationships in general makes you a target.
That ISNāT what was said. What I SAID was, āthe people included when I use LGBT or in the overall LGBT umbrella all experience homophobia or transphobia or BOTH.ā
Youāre arguing whether or not aroaces experience discrimination. Iām arguing that the LGBT umbrella is defined by people who experience homophobia OR transphobia, and that including any kind of cishet regardless of their relationship towards sex or romance is damaging to LGBT people and allows a class of our oppressor into our spaces as something other than āally.ā
So to recap quickly:
1.) Discrimination does not equal oppression necessarily. So yes, aroace people can probably be discriminated against, but youāre hardly oppressed by society on a systemic level for not having sex or being interested in romance.
2.) Even if this was oppression somehow, it still wouldnāt make someone cis and het or cis and aroace āLGBTā because that coalition is built by and for people who experience homophobia and transphobia. If you experience neither, but still want a community ā go forth and make it. But being LGBT isnāt a fun club for cishets to join as they please or feel like it. Weāre not talking about an enjoyable party cishets werenāt invited to, weāre talking about a group of people oppressed by homophobia or transphobia working together. Generic discrimination doesnāt make people LGBT.
3.) I am not limiting my definition of harassment. I am defining the fact that the LGBT community is oppressed by two factors which overlap historically and in reality. The fact that cishet people are not harassed in THIS SPECIFIC WAY doesnāt mean they canāt be harassed, it means theyāre not LGBT.
Cishet people playing dress up by acting as if they are persecuted by homophobia is both offensive and morally reprehensible. Itās āslumming itā with oppression and leaving when you feel like it. It also misdirects real serious issues of oppression by parsing them out into something that really isnāt quantifiable and has no consistent history.
If we framed this: āThe patriarchy and rampant misogyny push all people into sexual roles they feel uncomfortable with, and targets anyone who does not behave accordingly,ā then we could have a real, in depth, and sourced discussion. We could talk about why women in particular are punished for eschewing relationships or for being uninterested in sex, but we could also talk about how hyper machoism does the same to men, and how that marginalizes trans and nb people.
We could even have vast and deeply complex discussions about how colonialism and imperialism brutalized people into the gender binary, sexualized or desexualized certain bodies, and has attacked and weakened natural human bonding - to the point where we feel pressure to present our sexual nature in very specific and narrow ways. We could talk about the commodification of sex and sexual behavior. We could criticize Girls Gone Wild and both the Sex negative and Sex Positive movements. We could EVEN talk about why y'all apologists are always so eager to assume that ALL LGBT people have or want to have sex or are always sexual or in turn always interested in romance ā but INSTEAD of doing ANY OF THAT and having deep and meaningful discussions about humanity and sex and gender and sexuality ā
ā weāre all stuck here at 101 reminding people āto be LGBT you either experience homophobia or transphobia.ā So we never really move on to address any of the other issues and are stuck here, forever reiterating the most basic concept to people.
Best post OP
Amazing post OP
Articulated to the letter. Fantastic post OP
Being demisexual isā¦
running away when someone you donāt know flirts with you
cos everyone knows that allos love it when strangers hit on them, those sluts
reblog if youāre a lesbian who supports bi girls, a bi girl who supports lesbians, or if you want all wlw to have a nice day
hi please commission me so i can help my boyfriend get out of his abusive home and we can get an apartment togetherĀ (commission prices link)
or if you can, even just donating a few dollars would helpĀ (paypal link)
hey, this is the mentioned boyfriend. its june 6 and im leaving my house june 15. please, anything would help
hes leaving in a week today (the 8th), if each person that liked or reblogged this donated even a dollar thatd help so much
this friday!
hey guys hes leaving tomorrow and we still need a lot of help cause im not getting the hours at work to help him or even support myself
but i wunna thank everyone whos donated or commissioned me, it means the world and i cant thank you enough. its so touching how much youve helped, and every dollar really does help.
straight???? STRAIGHT?????? who are the LGBT straights please tell me
do they mean trans people???? why not just say trans???? what in the world
Buzzfeed has always, will always be a fuckin mess
this is next-level mess, even for buzzfeed, and iāve seen a lot of buzzfeed content that doesnāt even deserve to be considered content bc itās so BAD kdnckskckwhgx
the only guess i have is maybe straight trans people?
They put LGBT but didnāt put trans in the pie chart thing? This makes no sense
tbh ace discourse is so distressing to me bc like. i highly doubt inclusionists even understand what the lgbt community is all about?Ā
like ive seen inclusionists legit ask what resources cishet aro/ace people and cis aroace people could ~~supposedly~~ steal and like. do you know why there are lgbt homeless shelters? like has it even crossed your mind why lgbt people cant go to standard shelters? its bc wed get kicked out in the best case scenario and get assaulted or murdered in the worst case. who is gonna kick someone out of an homeless shelter bc they dont feel sexual attraction?
the same goes for lgbt scholarships, hotlines and so on. we need these resources bc cishets either dont give a shit about us or they want us dead.
and the lgbt community and the ace community also have extremely different goals. i support the ace community. i think we should make people aware of informed consent, we should talk about the sexualization found in our society, about how sex and romance arent the only things that make us human and people can live a happy life without them. but the lgbt community isnt the place where to do it.
listen. for lgbt people sex is often a demonized aspect of their lifes. homophobic sexual jokes; āpredatory gay man/lesbian/trans personā stereotypes; Ā equating gay relationships with sexual intercourse; Ā sexual harassment suffered especially by wlwā the slut shaming suffered by bi, pan and poly people; corrective rape; ālove the sinner hate the sinā mentality, are all things the lgbt community is supposed to be free of. now i hope you understand why, for someone struggling to see their sexual attraction as something good and normal, in the only safe haven they have, having somebody preach thatĀ ānot feeling sexual attraction is ok!ā, is downright disrespectful and hurtful, even tho its a valid statement.
the lgbt community and the ace community can be allied, but we cannot be united, and thats not hate speech, thats just me caring for my own.
OP: Makes this beautiful post about how the ace and LGBT community can work together, but not be joined in a well thought out and understanding manner.
Hellsite Ace Cryptids crawling out from a sewer gutter and into the notes of this post: āBad post OP!! Cishet aces are LGBT!!!!!ā
Can you explain he/him lesbians to me? Iāve asked before and been told, you donāt have to get it just respect them! And I do! But Iād like to understand them as well. And thereās lots of conflicting info on this site. My understanding is that theyāre lesbian women who use he/him but why would someone use male pronouns if not to indicate their gender? Thatās the part I canāt find solid answers on.
im not a lesbian, so my understanding is always going to be slightly limited from that perspective, but hereās how I understand it from my reading of pieces by lesbians:
firstly, you need to acknowledge that pronouns arenāt āmaleā or āfemaleā. pronouns are just sounds that people can employ however they want. different people can use pronouns for different reasons. they donāt necessarily directly correlate with your gender. they can, of course, but they donāt have to. either way, you should respect the pronouns people choose to use. thatās not a question.
pronouns can just be a way of expressing yourself and your gender- the same as clothes, names, and behaviour. you wouldnāt say a woman who wears pants is no longer a woman. so a woman who chooses to use he/him pronouns, because he finds that to be the most comfortable way to express his gender, is still a woman. women who choose to subvert gender norms by doing typically āmasculineā things like wearing certain clothes, acting a certain way, and yes, using certain pronouns, are still women (see- butches???? duh)
on that note: lesbians have a long, long history of subverting gender norms like this. itās a central part of lesbianism, because female gender norms heavily include the expectation to have relationships with men. why is it suddenly okay for lesbians to subvert some gender norms (like clothing and having relationships with other women) but not others (like using different pronouns). lesbians have been doing this for decades and they know what theyāre doing.
and for the record this has FUCKING NOTHING TO DO WITH TRANS MEN. NOTHING. NADA. ZILCH. lesbians using he/him pronouns is not suddenly the source of all transphobia and misgendering of trans men!! that idea is justā¦. pathetic tbh. lesbians are not your enemies. leave them alone.
What she said: Iām a lesbian. I only like girls. Iām not interested in men at all and it took me a long time to accept that which is why my identity as a lesbian is so important to me.
What they heard: Iām a queer sapphic wlw who loves women! Do I like men? Well, tricky subject, but I think Iām gunna be a bit mysterious on that topic because it doesnāt matter and besides!!!!!!!!!!!! Liking men!!! Is valid!!!!!!
If you donāt know how to express your attraction to butch/GNC/trans women without saying āPunch me in the face!ā āMurder me!ā āBeat me up!ā then maybe consider shutting the fuck up.
Black women & brown women, too.
āSome black women complained that when they moved outside the ghetto into integrated lesbian communities in certain areas, even in the 1970s, white women sometimes automatically assumed that black women would be butch in a sexual relationship or even manipulated them into being butch. As Iris, a black lesbian from Omaha, Nebraska, remembers, āThey didnāt like you to wear make-up. They wanted you in masculine dress, but they wanted to be real āfou-fouā themselves.ā She attributes the predilection to a covert racism that is blind to femininity in black females.ā
ā
Lillian Faderman, āThe Return of Butch and Femme: A Phenomenon in Lesbian Sexuality of the 1980s and 1990s.ā 1992. (via theorynotebook)
Hey fellow non-lesbians like me, jsyk being wary of the lesbian flag is just lesbophobia.
The fact that you associate the things shitty people do to the fact that theyāre lesbians is lesbophobia.
Lesbian flag is just that : a flag for lesbians. If you associate it with anything else itās on you. Youāre lesbophobic.
So going āhm iām not surprised op is a terf/aphobe/etc., I was wary when I saw the lesbian flag in their icon š¤ā is just plain gross lesbophobia. Literally. Itās just that. It just means youāre distrusting lesbians because theyāre āmore likely to be shitty peopleā and thatās just lesbophobia. It just is.
Some pride flags!!! Sorry about the quality I made these really quickly on my phone
