Baloney

I don’t know, message me if you’re that curious.

[zelzim]

Soon……

[catchymemes]

[zelzim]

Let her in damn it!

[thememedaddy]

[zelzim]

Fuck MakoAmi.

Fuck this glazed, glittered up, and glorified power imbalance kink passing itself as a wholesome “WLW” ship, it has coasted on undeserved and unexamined goodwill for far too long.

I can’t believe it took so long to really wrap my autistic brain around why this ship boils my piss in ways others don’t, I don’t even consider myself that invested in shipping in general, I vibe with some, not so much with others. But this one? THIS one? It absolutely makes me want to do regretful and sinful things even God will not forget. But why? I love both characters, but I cannot stand this ship with one single iota.

At first I thought it was just another surface level contrast, the “tall strong gurl” and “shy brainy gurl”, the lowest of low hanging fruit for ship fuel, and sure, that’s grating, but it can’t be the only thing that bothers me about this ship. And it’s only when I began to look at all the art, fics, moodboards, and opinion pieces does the entire fore come into play. Consistently, Makoto is portrayed as the “dominant giver”, and Ami as the “passive receiver”, Mako looming over over like a dominatrix and Ami blushing like a fragile little girl toy. EVERY. DAMN. TIME. Is every piece overly sexual? Not really, but there is an evident pattern going on, and I will not be gaslit into believing otherwise by the fandom at large. This ship proves that it’s running on little else than pure unadulterated monkey brained fetish fuel. I don’t care how you want to justify it, my common sense will filter any pseudo intellectual noise and hear the primate screeches and howls buried beneath the flowery rhetoric. I’m not mad that a ship runs on kink, I’m mad that it LIES about it, all while cheapening and flatten two great characters into tired tropes and thirst traps. Makoto, who is the arguably most kind, nurturing, and romantic of the Senshi, turned into some masculinized dommy mommy, Ami, who might actually be the most mentally tough and resilient of the Senshi, reduced into the “smol little good girl” who needs strong gf to protect and guide her. It completely rewrites Makoto’s already existing softness and Ami’s existing toughness while trying to pass itself as “balanced”.

People clutched pearls over the age gap between Usagi and Mamoru in the 90s anime, they moaned over the problematic nature of SeiUsa, and yet, remain completely SILENT over the blatant power play of MakoAmi. If Makoto was a dude, NOBODY would be gushing over this ship, it would be condemned as “toxic masculinity”, “controlling”, “power imbalanced”, “heteronormative”, and every other problematic label in the book, but of course, it’s two girls, it’s “queer”, it’s “WLW”, so it’s shielded and absolved in ways a straight pairing would never be in a million years.

The ship was barely even a thing in the manga, it’s only the 90s anime, where it’s so apparent at least horny staffer saw these two and thought “Oooo….that girl is tall and strong….other one is shy and nerdy….how….intriguing 😏”, and just COULDN’T help themselves. Couldn’t resist that primate brained driven urge to twist that contest into indulgence and foreplay, so we got that utterly contrived and forced tease in the 147th episode ““Destined Partners? Makoto's Innocence”, a set up that practically punished Makoto for being insufficiently feminine (“too scary” my ass, no man who isn’t insecure or weak willed could resist an Amazonian power house with the demeanor of a sweet housewife), made Usagi, Rei, and Minako look like unattentive and shitty friends for not noticing one of their own is in a predicament, all so the writers and artists could play with their dolls, indulge in their fetish, and have Ami be the “sweet girl who saves the day” to push the fantasy of “nerdy girl tames the Amazonian” fantasy. The fans went feral, of course, far too distracted with the fetishy….I MEAN….”cute” vibes to see the shameless character assassination that took place.

And Naoko caved, of course she did, so she gave the howling monkey brained fans foaming and drooling what they wanted, and teased MakoAmi in the last panel. This entire cumshow started with an anime staffer’s boner for height contrast and power imbalance foreplay, and the fandom has unquestionably swallowed the semen like night whores, FOR. THREE. ENTIRE. DECADES. The dogma and delusion is so strong, other Moonies act a gasp that I don’t like this ship, in fact, I DESPISE IT, and it’s absolutely baffling how fragile this fan base is when it comes to sacred cow ships, considering how many times I’ve been blocked and banned for criticizing it. This fanbase is so insecure in its own gospel it will nail down any person with the gaul to point out the Emperor’s lack of clothes, point out the elephant in the room that has been shitting all over the carpet for DECADES.

Fuck MakoAmi.

[kolimachris]

Long post, but I put a tl;dr at the bottom for anyone that's not interested in my overly long autistic rambling. Just understand that my purpose here isn't to say op is wrong when they view MakoAmi as a fetish, only to say that assuming everyone sees it that way is incorrect. Not trying to argue, just trying to share an alternate point of view.

I'm always of the opinion that people can like or dislike whatever for whatever reasons or even no reason at all. So if you dislike MakoAmi, that's 100% fine. You don't have to. You can hate it. Even making posts like this to explain why you hate it is fine. If that were all it was I would happily just scroll past and ignore this.

However, the reason why I found this post in the first place is because of this:

Seeing what I felt was a perfectly innocent comment of mine be responded to with this made me think that zelzim here might just be a rage-baiter. I looked to see if that seemed to be the case, and it looks like no, it's just a hatred towards MakoAmi that's apparently so strong it needs to be shared with other people who are just enjoying shipping. They also state in this post that this is just what MakoAmi shippers are like. I don't think it's a good idea to make such assumptions about such a broad group of people.

Honestly, if this was the kind of impression I had of MakoAmi shippers I would at least hate the shippers myself, even if I still liked the ship. Wouldn't be the first time that I found a fandom too unbearable to deal with despite continuing to enjoy the source material myself. This hasn't been the impression I've gotten of MakoAmi shippers though, so kindly allow me to present an alternate point of view.

First, let me address on thing in particular.

I don’t care how you want to justify it, my common sense will filter any pseudo intellectual noise and hear the primate screeches and howls buried beneath the flowery rhetoric. I’m not mad that a ship runs on kink, I’m mad that it LIES about it

So this post is going to go on for quite a bit, and I am going to do my best to present things in a calm, rational way that I think makes sense. I also tend to ramble quite a lot generally. I hope that explaining things calmly and properly will be seen for what it is rather than "pseudo intellectual noise" and "flowery rhetoric". If someone disagrees with my points that's fine, as it's all opinion. I just hope anyone with this kind of view will at least be able to see my points as something that I'm honestly and earnestly trying to convey rather than just trying to sound smart while I defend a ship I like.

At first I thought it was just another surface level contrast, the “tall strong gurl” and “shy brainy gurl”

Honestly, just this on its could answer that not everyone that ships MakoAmi does it as a fetish. It's a dynamic that a lot of people enjoy. For some people that's enough. It's not deep, it's not a fetish, it's just "oh, they look cute together". Period. Is it shallow? Yes. Is it annoying? To some people, sure. Is it bad to ship characters together based on nothing else? No. However, I have far better reasons to ship them.

The next reason I'm going to mention is also a bit shallow. Sailor Moon has been around for a VERY long time. This means that many people first saw it when they were still very young. Even then, lots of kids still like stories of romance, and they'll put their two favorite characters together whether or not it makes sense or they're from the same show or anything else. So for many people that haven't thought all that much about Sailor Moon lately it could simply be a ship from their childhood. I don't think it makes sense to accuse an 8 year old of shipping characters together because of a fetish, and for many adults this is just that they never saw any reason not to ship them since they were an 8 year old. It's nostalgic and so why not? Again, a simple, shallow reason, but I think for a lot of people that's all it is.

My next reason goes directly against something mentioned in this post, so allow me to quote once more.

And it’s only when I began to look at all the art, fics, moodboards, and opinion pieces does the entire fore come into play. Consistently, Makoto is portrayed as the “dominant giver”, and Ami as the “passive receiver”, Mako looming over over like a dominatrix and Ami blushing like a fragile little girl toy. EVERY. DAMN. TIME.

Okay, I'm not going to say you haven't run across those portrayals of them. It would be really dumb if my argument was just "nuh uh". However, take a look at some of these images I found very quickly near the top of an image search.

In this one Makoto is being portrayed in an extremely feminine way. She a blushing, embarrassed girl that's just been confessed to by the person she likes. In plenty of confession scenes like this in anime it's the boy that confesses. Not all, but enough that you can't even say that either of them here are meant to be a stand-in for a man.

Makoto, very girlishly flustered because she's struct by just how attracted she is to the person in front of her. Extremely feminine appearance to Makoto for this scene.

This one goes even further, having Ami as the aggressive, dominant one that pulled Makoto into an unexpected kiss.

In both of these Makoto is taller, sure, and she has her arm around Ami in the second one, but are you going to tell me that that's enough to qualify as a "dominant giver" that's "looming over like a dominatrix"? Even taking the dominatrix thing as hyperbole, this just looks like couples being couples to me. Anyway, with these example and the quote I mentioned in mind, let me finally get to my next point.

One reason why many people like MakoAmi is because it subverts gender rolls and expectations. Yes, Makoto is tall and strong while Ami is short and shy. So despite both being women you could expect people to default to making Makoto "the man" and Ami "the woman" of the relationship. Instead of that, whenever I see a fic where they're adults with jobs Ami is a doctor, going out and working all day to bring in enough money to support them, while Makoto is either a stay at home wife or she's working at a flower shop or some other equally feminine career.

Now, of course, generalizing that because one partner is making more money they're the man and because one partner has a more domestic or traditionally feminine job they're the woman is no good. That's kind of the point though. While Makoto is almost always the more feminine of the two, Ami's femininity is never questioned either. They both get to be girls in love with each other, with no one assuming a dominant role or the position as the "man". There's plenty of queer media that exists out there that does a far worse job of subverting gender roles than this and is still generally considered good representation with a good message.

I love the dynamic of Makoto, as a strong, tall woman, being able to feel comfortable as a feminine woman. She doesn't have to take charge or be on top. She's able to like flowers and fuzzy animals and cute things without feeling out of place as the tall, strong woman because she knows that Ami accepts her and encourages her to be herself.

Even the famous dance scene, which op described as:

a set up that practically punished Makoto for being insufficiently feminine... and have Ami be the “sweet girl who saves the day” to push the fantasy of “nerdy girl tames the Amazonian” fantasy.

is a wild interpretation of a scene that in itself is defying gender norms. Yes, Makoto leads during the dance, but otherwise she's in the far more feminine position of the two. Ami goes up and asks her to dance, which is the kind of thing the man usually does in het relationships. Makoto is feeling "insufficiently feminine", so Ami doesn't go "tame the Amazonian" but instead reassures her that her femininity is recognized and appreciated. Ami's giving the kind of assurance that other shows would have a boyfriend give to his girlfriend, again putting Makoto in the more feminine position. Even if it were "taming" instead of reassuring, you don't think of "fragile little girl toys" taming the "towering dominatrix". That would still be putting Ami as the dominant of the two.

The ship was barely even a thing in the manga, it’s only the 90s anime

You know what, I will agree that it was barely even a thing in the manga. I wouldn't say it was nothing, but it was much less. Part of that is of course because the 90s anime is so stuffed with filler episodes that every potential ship has way more going for it. In the manga most ships other than Usagi and Mamoru were limited to little things that could have been hints or could have been nothing. Given Naoko's track record I'm inclined to believe they were hints, but other people would disagree with me and that's fine.

Even in the 90s anime, everything that could be a hint could also just be nothing but friendship. They even TRY to play off that dance scene as platonic. Other than the dance scene most of the other hints, while more numerous than the manga, aren't any more obvious.

My big issue with that quote is that it's "only" the 90s anime that includes the ship. Sailor Moon has so many different versions of canon that it'd honestly be weird if you could only find really shippy moments in one of them. However in addition to the manga, the 90s anime, and the newer anime, you also have the Japanese live-action drama, and all the musicals (most of which are their own separate canon with their own unique way of events playing out). I haven't watched all the musicals unfortunately, but there's some very shippy moments to be found there. In the live action too, even though they go hard on Makoto x Matoki in that version. (And honestly Matoki in the live action is a delight, it's the only version of him that I care about at all.)

So in the end, no matter which version of canon you're looking at you're never going to find anything more than hints, but you also can't really accuse any one version of leaning too much more into the ship than any other version.

It's also quite the statement to say that "Naoko caved" to give into shippers when the "cave" in question is just one panel that even op says only "teased" at the ship. Especially if Naoko hasn't made any statement suggesting that it wasn't always the plan. (I have a similar dislike to people who say that in RWBY Bumbleby was "caving" to fan demands, and fans of the ship were crying out that they were only ever being queer baited rather that the likely truth that it was always intended to happen but fans are impatient and can't stand to wait for the story to get there. That's a whole different can of worms though.)

Another reason that "the ship only exists for fetish reasons" falls apart is because of how many people out there are asexual, even sex-repulsed, yet still ship the characters together. Like, I guess a sex-repulsed asexual person could still maybe have a fetish, but I really doubt it.

Even if you aren't ace, this seems like a really vanilla ship to accuse of fetishization. You mention the power imbalance, but I just don't see that either in their interactions in canon or the majority of MakoAmi works I see. I usually see them as a pretty wholesome, healthy couple, that each respect and value each other's contributions and consider their roles equal both in life and in their relationship.

Even when I do see Makoto portrayed as more butch and dominant (which does happen, even if in my experience it hasn't been the norm) I've literally NEVER seen it portrayed as a power imbalance or controlling. I'm sure I could probably find something if I searched for MakoAmi fics on ao3 that had the tag "yandere", but I really feel like they'd make Ami the controlling one with all the power. (I'm not going to actually look for those because yandere really isn't my thing. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I admit that's nothing more than a guess.)

Like I said at the beginning, you're allowed to hate MakoAmi and view it as nothing but a fetish and disagree with every single point I've made. But even if you see it as a fetish, I really hope that you'll be able to understand that no everyone sees it that way, and in fact most people probably don't. I hope you took this not as me trying to start an argument, but just sharing an alternative perspective.

So, for those who didn't want to read my whole TED talk, here's the tl;dr:

You can like a dynamic without fetishizing a dynamic

People ship this that are too young to be interested in fetishes

MakoAmi works regularly explore and subvert gender dynamics

MakoAmi works regularly allow Makoto to be feminine and Ami to be strong

While there is no version of canon that makes MakoAmi happen, there's no version of canon that doesn't have some hints towards it either

This is far too vanilla for a ship that's supposedly for nothing but fetish

[zelzim]

I will commend you for at the very least being willing to actually engage my points, after the slew of insults, dismissals, and excommunication that has come my way ever since my tirade against this ship, you are far more reasonable than the average shipper I have had the displeasure of coming across, and I’ll admit, sometimes I come off strong, even hostile, sometimes I lash out at others who didn’t deserve it, but after everything, I’ve just lost patience and good will with this fandom, so if I come off too strong at times, I apologize.

Don’t find much of it convicning though honesty.

I don’t think you’re intentionally trying to invalid my experiences with the fandom, but the way you tried to suggest I shouldn’t judge them all or that “I’ve personally never experienced this” comes off a little dismissive, this seems like a “#NotAllMen tier tactic. I’m not saying every single MakoAmi shipper is a foam mouthed lunatic, but just because some can be civil, doesn’t invalidate my experiences, and doesn’t mean there isn’t a consistent pattern I’ve noticed where some cows tend to be particularly sacred compared to others, and dissent is not tolerated. If I’m being consistently insulted, mocked, blocked, banned, gaslit, and even crisis reported, like I was here on Reddit for sharing similar thoughts.

Then maybe there is an issue with this fandom being unwilling to interrogate its own doctrines, something that even the most rabid and notorious fanbases don’t stoop to. I get you’re “just enjoying a ship”, and I’m just sharing an opinion, why exactly should I compromise my own right to a voice for someone else’s comfort? It’s one thing if people don’t like my opinion, it’s something else entirely when mods have banned me, removed my posts, and even outright lie to me just for SHARING it. I have never seen such a level of institutional hugbox enforcement from any fandom, not even the craziest ones. Star Wars, Sonic, various harem fanbases, they all have done their share of deranged and line crossing behavior, but protecting a ship to this scale? That is absolutely unheard of to me, and brushing it off as “it’s not all” doesn’t address the rot.

And I also find it a little dishonest you are bringing children into the argument (not the first time weirdly enough, but that’s another story). I’m not talking about kids, I’m not talking about childhoods, I’m talking about full grown adults who can’t handle their OTP being even remotely eyes the wrong way, and other full grown adults who will silence to protect their feelings. And it’s also dishonest to pretend like there aren’t children’s properties that haven’t scrutinized, Harry Potter, Disney, Illumination to name a few. Children liking it doesn’t give it a free pass, because I highly doubt no child didn’t like the romance between Usagi and Mamoru in the 90s anime, that didn’t stop the fandom tearing into it for its age gap did it? They didn’t avoid calling it problematic cause they thought they would call kids problematic did they?

So it’s not that deep now all of a sudden? Since when? This site and spaces like it will psychoanalyze, dissect, and look at any piece of media, any scene, any moment at the most microscopic level for the faintest whiff of something problematic, but when those guns are aimed their precious and sacred WLW yuri vibe? Suddenly, we’re told “no friendly fire”, suddenly it’s “Any joke, any franchise, any character, any ship, any thing in the open, even the way men sit, must be tested through the progressive purifier, but not my lesbian ship, because women can NEVER be problematic or be seen as such”. Literally nothing gets that benefit of the doubt, except the untouchable yuri ships, because as long as penis isn’t present, neither is toxicity apparently. If it’s truly shallow, then there wouldn’t be a need to get this defensive of it, right?

My “every MakoAmi art piece is fetish fuel” was more or less hyperbole, and I wasn’t actually saying all MakoAmi art is like that. But here is the other thing, these “wholesome” images you sent me are, at best, selective examples, or at worse, masks that cover the true appeal. You can make wholesome MakoAmi art, you can “subvert” the dynamics, but when I find pieces like these…

I’m not going to be swayed by quick google searches that don’t tend to emphasis the spicy material, and I could have shown you those, that would be cutting, but I think these show even the “wholesome” art reveals the pattern/drive. Making Ami the actual breadwinner in fanfiction doesn’t at all refute my point, it doesn’t retroactively cancel out what the actual meat and potatoes of this “shallow” ship truly is. Instead of Ami being outright pinned, now she had a housewife who is more than capable of pinning her, pure hair splitting. A car doesn’t automatically become different when the paint job changes, especially if the engine is still present. Makoto is still “masculine coded”, and Ami is still “feminine coded” switching the power imbalance from physical to economic doesn’t automatically make the ship “wholesome”, and the fact many MakoAmi shippers seem to think so is rather transparently revealing.

Your reading of the dance scene in episode 147 is nice, but none of it actually addresses what my issue actually is. Your interpretation of it leans on it as a “sweet moment”, my interpretation leans on it as an artificially constructed scene that isn’t for anything else then to manufacture a MakoAmi moment, and it does so by compromising practically everyone else. Making every single guy arbitrarily “scared” of the big girl, when we know no man, except the most weak willed and insecure little bitch, is gonna turn down a powerhouse in peak housewife material packaging. Turning all of Makoto’s friends, Usagi, Rei, and Minako, girls who have lived through hell with her and would die for eachother, suddenly too cock blind and oblivious to notice their best friend is left hanging and hurt. This was in service to tease a shallow dynamic that is nothing else than dommy mommy fantasy, and the amount of glaze it has undeservedly received is unjust. And what are they implying anyway? That if you’re too scary for boys, a girl is your option? That’s not practical or even helpful for women who don’t fit a traditional mold. This scene is an indefensible writing clusteruck that has only been able to avoid scrutiny due to the MakoAmi aura being far too intoxicating and enticing. Considering everything else the 90s anime gets heat for (Usagi/Mamoru age gap, SeiUsa, Rei’s flanderization, the dated animation, the dated structure, the excessive filler), the fact this moment has not only gotten by scar free, but pedestaled shows how much people will sacrifice and compromise on the holy name of this ship.

And you’re misrepresenting what I said, I never said it was only the 90s anime that teased it, I said it was where it started, and even you seemed to have agreed that the entire foundation of the ship is rooted in little else than filler fanservice fluff. There was never any true “WLW pure representation”, and it was likely some horny animators who got off on the height/demeanor contrast, the fandom ran with it unquestionably, completely blind to this reality, of course, how could ANYTHING involving women ever be impure?

And the part where you bring it the ace/sex repulsed examples for your point is where you REALLY start stretching. Just because ace/sex repulsed people can enjoy a ship, that doesn’t mean it isn’t fetish coded, that’s like saying “See? Women can enjoy gangster rap, that means it’s not misogynistic”. This is also overlooking the fact that yes, asexual/sex repulsed people can still enjoy romance, powerplay dynamics, gap moe personalities, and yes, even have fetishes, the fact you admitted this, than immediately shot it down shows you might not be entirely confident in your own convictions. And once again, appealing to biases and personal anecdotes to avoid having to confront the uncomfortable truth of what this ship implies. Calling it “vanilla” is a massive disconnect from the various art and fics out there that actually display what the true appeal of the ship is. Insisting it’s “wholesome” or “I’ve never personally seen anything raunchy” does not retroactively neuter the implications nor make the works that fully reveal them go away.

Overall, thanks for at least not resorting to blocks, bans, vague posts, insults, gaslighting, or any other cheap tactic this fandom has pulled on me, you actually tried to engage in good faith, but not much of this was very convincing to me if I’m being honest, lots of stretching, selective bias, lack of addressing core points, tangents, and non-sequiturs.

Whether you consciously see it as fetish doesn’t matter to me, it will never change the fact this ship’s foundation was hollow and rooted in a superficial height contrast that is a kink slippery slope, and pretending otherwise is willful cope.

[kolimachris]

I see that in my rambling and my tangents and some poor word choice/phrasing on my part I lost the main points I wanted to convey. Even my bullet point tl;dr was perhaps going into more than it needed to.

I was not trying to say that you haven't experienced what you've experienced, and I apologize for sounding like that. Any group with enough people in it will have some really great people and some really horrible people in it. MakoAmi does have enough shippers that I would honestly be amazed if no one had ever had awful experiences with them. However, the way the shippers treated you, while it does explain the way you said you can sometimes lash out, was not intended to be the point. My focus was meant to be on the ship.

Furthermore, I didn't mean to suggest that no one views MakoAmi through a fetish lens. Again, any large enough group is going to have some people at various extremes.

My point was simply supposed to express that there are lots of people who don't use this ship as simply a fetish and that many people don't even see the fetish and power imbalance that you mention.

You can find plenty of pictures that do emphasize the fact that Makoto is tall and strong, especially compared to Ami. However that alone does not constitute a fetish. Even if Makoto is the more proactive when it comes showing her affection, that's also not a fetish. In most of the pictures you shared Makoto is still being quite feminine, she's just not nearly as shy as Ami so it makes sense that if you're going to create works with them Makoto will be the more outgoing, proactive of the two. That isn't a fetish, that's a very common relationship in real life. It also doesn't create a power gap in any way. Yes, Makoto could use her size and strength to force herself on Ami. But that could be true of any relationship where one person is at all notably stronger or bigger than the other, and those relationships exist all over the place in both reality and fiction because people tend to be different and tall muscular people don't always limit their dating pool to people that could wrestle them to a draw.

So while you could use Makoto's physical characteristics to create a power gap in your work, their relationship doesn't automatically mean there is a power gap.

Now it stands to reason that if there are many people that do not see a fetish or power imbalance inherent in their relationship that it's entirely possible the people behind the 90s anime also didn't see any fetish or power imbalance there. We can't know for sure exactly what they were thinking, but there have been times when writers do something that the entire audience realizes reads one way while they writers had no clue it would be taken that way. So we can't assume that they were just doing that for the fetish. We can't assume anything about their motives.

I specifically didn't address the issue of the others not noticing Makoto during the dance because I agree that they should have noticed. I don't know that you can say that makes the ship bad, just that the episode in question has problems that it ignores for the story the writer's were trying to tell, whatever reason they had for that. There are so many episodes of the 90s anime that it's easy to find plenty of places where "[character] would have done [action] in this situation, but they didn't". In this case it was certainly because they wanted the dance scene, but we don't know why they wanted it. Maybe it was a fetish, maybe it wasn't. Maybe they just had the animation storyboard of them dancing and thought it looked nice and they wanted to make sure they got to use it. However simply looking nice or having a particular dynamic does not constitute a fetish.

You also objected to the fact that I said that it's not that deep, and mentioned how many other children's media gets thoroughly examined and raked over the coals. However, I wasn't saying "the ship isn't that deep", I was saying "some people's reason's for shipping it aren't that deep". Yes, as a society we regularly scrutinize and analyze every little detail and declare tons of things problematic. However, just because that is something that people do doesn't mean that's something that everyone does. There are people that don't think that deeply about it, think it's cute, and that's the extent of it. Thinking something is cute does not mean that they have a fetish. And given how you initially replied to my comment on the queerplatonic poll and what the original post here says it sounds like you're not willing to give anyone the benefit of a doubt that perhaps they haven't thought about it and aren't into it because it's a fetish.

Your reading of the dance scene in episode 147 is nice, but none of it actually addresses what my issue actually is. Your interpretation of it leans on it as a “sweet moment”, my interpretation leans on it as an artificially constructed scene that isn’t for anything else then to manufacture a MakoAmi moment

This actually perfectly encompasses what I was trying to say before and what I'm trying to say now. You mention my interpretation of it and your interpretation of it. I am NOT trying to change the way you interpret the ship. I am trying to demonstrate to you that your interpretation isn't the only interpretation. If your interpretation were the only one then yes, everyone would be seeing it as nothing but fetish-bait and anyone that enjoyed it would just be indulging in their fetish. However if other interpretations exist at all then you can't simply assume that all the shippers are into a fetish and that the writers were into a fetish and that everyone making an innocent comment on a post that hadn't even suggested anything of the sort sees nothing but a fetish. If you're willing to admit that I even might possibly be telling you the truth about how I interpret MakoAmi (and I can assure you I have been) then you should be willing to admit that literally anyone could be interpreting MakoAmi in other ways as well.

I get you’re “just enjoying a ship”, and I’m just sharing an opinion, why exactly should I compromise my own right to a voice for someone else’s comfort?

I have to disagree with one thing in particular about this. You saying that MakoAmi is fetish-coded and that it plays into negative stereotypes and power dynamics is your opinion and you may feel free to share it. However, your very first interaction with me wasn't you saying "I think it's just a fetish" or even "it's just a fetish", but "just say it's a fetish". You weren't telling me what your opinion was, you were insisting that you knew what my opinion was.

The original post here that's being responded to is full of that exact sort of thing. Talking about your opinion and about the things that have happened to you are fine, but tell other people what they feel? That's an entirely different matter.

This ship proves that it’s running on little else than pure unadulterated monkey brained fetish fuel.

If you're willing to believe that my interpretation is an interpretation people are capable of believing, then you could perhaps complain that other people don't see how fetish-coded you think it is, but the ship, or at least the shippers, are running without bringing fetish into it.

I don’t care how you want to justify it, my common sense will filter any pseudo intellectual noise and hear the primate screeches and howls buried beneath the flowery rhetoric. I’m not mad that a ship runs on kink, I’m mad that it LIES about it

I have been arguing that I, personally, do not see MakoAmi as a ship that runs on fetish fuel. Now either you believe that I believe what I'm saying, or you're telling me that I'm lying. Again, that's telling me what I think and what I believe when you don't even know me. I also think that unless someone admits that they're lying or you have proof that they're lying that you can't know. So rather than assuming that everyone that ships MakoAmi is into that fetish and lying about it, couldn't it make more sense that they don't see the fetish inherent in it that you do? Even the pattern you mention as being obviously the fandom playing into the fetish could, except where explicitly noted, be people who don't see the fanwork they're creating as playing into a fetish. You can disagree and say that they don't know or understand that they're perpetuating a fetish, but ignorance is different from lying. If they say they think it's wholesome with no power imbalance then they probably actually believe that. Or at the very least it's insulting and demeaning to insist that you know what they actually believe and they're lying about it.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe that what a person states about a matter of opinion (like what their opinion is of a given ship) is actually what their opinion is. I can disagree with their opinion, I can think they're dumb for having a certain opinion, but I can't tell them "you don't have that opinion".

So, let me give another tl;dr.

People may have different opinion on what MakoAmi is

People might not ship them because of a fetish

Insisting a fetish is the only reason people ship them and telling them as much, unprompted, is not the same thing as sharing your opinion

That is all I'm trying to get across. Yes, I try to elaborate on my points and I go into tangents and I ramble, that's just the way I am. Yes, I might seem to state a point and then contradict it because I'm trying to get across that this is all based on opinions and my opinions aren't facts. However I'm not trying to say "MakoAmi aren't a fetish", I'm trying to say "they aren't a fetish to me, and there are others that applies to as well".

If you want to respond to this as well feel free, and I will read it thoroughly and with an open mind. However, since I don't expect either of us to change our opinions and we could go on forever, I probably won't both making another super detailed reply. Hopefully I got my point across this time (and whether or not I did is an issue with how I'm doing things, I'm not trying to say anything about you with that, I'm just self-conscious that I lose my points in my writing). I hope you'll be willing to admit that my perspective is a perspective people are capable of holding, whether or not you feel anyone is justified in holding that perspective.

[zelzim]

Okay, I’m not really going to bother with a long response, so I’ll put my own tl;dr condenser.

You evaded the topic of how militantly defensive the fandom is of the ship by trying to split hairs, when they aren’t exclusive, a fandom is more reflective then you believe.

You didn’t address the hypocrisy and double standards progressive leaning spaces have regarding queer ships, especially WLW/yuri/lesbian varieties, especially when everything else gets far less curtesy when being examined for anything potentially toxic or problematic, you simply shrugged and double downed.

You keep appeasing that “not everyone sees it that way” relativist fallacy, when you and I both know a “big + small” pairing is NOT neutral by design, like a mafia boss with a nun, or an elephant with a mouse, there’s an objective imbalance and handwaving it is willful denial. So forgive me if I’m skeptical.

That “but in real life strong people date smaller people” is not the slam dunk you think it is, considering real life imbalances are absolutely scrutinized. And we’re not talking about reality, we’re talking about a dynamic that was consciously built on an inherent power contrast visual.

I’m not saying I’m a mind reader, so I can’t know for certain what the animators where thinking when they teased the ship, but I don’t have to, the proof is in the pudding. The inherently charged contrast, the fics and art that emphasis the power imbalance, the belligerent defense the fandom goes into when you point it out.

I didn’t say the bad writing in episode 147 inherently made the ship bad by default, I forgot to make that disclaimer, but it’s still rather damning how much unexamined good will that scene is given for nothing else than propping up the sacred ship, whether or not you ship MakoAmi, that moment is a contrived cluster fuck of character assassinating writing.

I admitted my approach might have been too strong and accusatory, but if I’m being honest, you didn’t really quell my suspicions (Ami is the real powerful one, avoiding difficult questions, doubling down, particularly with the pics I displayed).

So yeah, hopefully that wasn’t too long.

[zelzim]

Average MakoAmi stan.

[magictransgirl]

no

i dont think your very yuriful mr @zelzim

not very yuriful at all, shaking my head.

[zelzim]

I’m offended by this accusation. 😭

[magictransgirl]

She judges your unyuriful actions, mr @zelzim

Repent.

[zelzim]

Forgive goddess Rei, for I have sinned.

[zelzim]

Average MakoAmi stan.

[magictransgirl]

no

i dont think your very yuriful mr @zelzim

not very yuriful at all, shaking my head.

[zelzim]

I’m offended by this accusation. 😭

[magictransgirl]

She judges your unyuriful actions, mr @zelzim

Repent.

[zelzim]

Average MakoAmi stan.

[magictransgirl]

no

i dont think your very yuriful mr @zelzim

not very yuriful at all, shaking my head.

[zelzim]

I’m offended by this accusation. 😭

[zelzim]

Fuck MakoAmi.

Fuck this glazed, glittered up, and glorified power imbalance kink passing itself as a wholesome “WLW” ship, it has coasted on undeserved and unexamined goodwill for far too long.

I can’t believe it took so long to really wrap my autistic brain around why this ship boils my piss in ways others don’t, I don’t even consider myself that invested in shipping in general, I vibe with some, not so much with others. But this one? THIS one? It absolutely makes me want to do regretful and sinful things even God will not forget. But why? I love both characters, but I cannot stand this ship with one single iota.

At first I thought it was just another surface level contrast, the “tall strong gurl” and “shy brainy gurl”, the lowest of low hanging fruit for ship fuel, and sure, that’s grating, but it can’t be the only thing that bothers me about this ship. And it’s only when I began to look at all the art, fics, moodboards, and opinion pieces does the entire fore come into play. Consistently, Makoto is portrayed as the “dominant giver”, and Ami as the “passive receiver”, Mako looming over over like a dominatrix and Ami blushing like a fragile little girl toy. EVERY. DAMN. TIME. Is every piece overly sexual? Not really, but there is an evident pattern going on, and I will not be gaslit into believing otherwise by the fandom at large. This ship proves that it’s running on little else than pure unadulterated monkey brained fetish fuel. I don’t care how you want to justify it, my common sense will filter any pseudo intellectual noise and hear the primate screeches and howls buried beneath the flowery rhetoric. I’m not mad that a ship runs on kink, I’m mad that it LIES about it, all while cheapening and flatten two great characters into tired tropes and thirst traps. Makoto, who is the arguably most kind, nurturing, and romantic of the Senshi, turned into some masculinized dommy mommy, Ami, who might actually be the most mentally tough and resilient of the Senshi, reduced into the “smol little good girl” who needs strong gf to protect and guide her. It completely rewrites Makoto’s already existing softness and Ami’s existing toughness while trying to pass itself as “balanced”.

People clutched pearls over the age gap between Usagi and Mamoru in the 90s anime, they moaned over the problematic nature of SeiUsa, and yet, remain completely SILENT over the blatant power play of MakoAmi. If Makoto was a dude, NOBODY would be gushing over this ship, it would be condemned as “toxic masculinity”, “controlling”, “power imbalanced”, “heteronormative”, and every other problematic label in the book, but of course, it’s two girls, it’s “queer”, it’s “WLW”, so it’s shielded and absolved in ways a straight pairing would never be in a million years.

The ship was barely even a thing in the manga, it’s only the 90s anime, where it’s so apparent at least horny staffer saw these two and thought “Oooo….that girl is tall and strong….other one is shy and nerdy….how….intriguing 😏”, and just COULDN’T help themselves. Couldn’t resist that primate brained driven urge to twist that contest into indulgence and foreplay, so we got that utterly contrived and forced tease in the 147th episode ““Destined Partners? Makoto's Innocence”, a set up that practically punished Makoto for being insufficiently feminine (“too scary” my ass, no man who isn’t insecure or weak willed could resist an Amazonian power house with the demeanor of a sweet housewife), made Usagi, Rei, and Minako look like unattentive and shitty friends for not noticing one of their own is in a predicament, all so the writers and artists could play with their dolls, indulge in their fetish, and have Ami be the “sweet girl who saves the day” to push the fantasy of “nerdy girl tames the Amazonian” fantasy. The fans went feral, of course, far too distracted with the fetishy….I MEAN….”cute” vibes to see the shameless character assassination that took place.

And Naoko caved, of course she did, so she gave the howling monkey brained fans foaming and drooling what they wanted, and teased MakoAmi in the last panel. This entire cumshow started with an anime staffer’s boner for height contrast and power imbalance foreplay, and the fandom has unquestionably swallowed the semen like night whores, FOR. THREE. ENTIRE. DECADES. The dogma and delusion is so strong, other Moonies act a gasp that I don’t like this ship, in fact, I DESPISE IT, and it’s absolutely baffling how fragile this fan base is when it comes to sacred cow ships, considering how many times I’ve been blocked and banned for criticizing it. This fanbase is so insecure in its own gospel it will nail down any person with the gaul to point out the Emperor’s lack of clothes, point out the elephant in the room that has been shitting all over the carpet for DECADES.

Fuck MakoAmi.

[kolimachris]

Long post, but I put a tl;dr at the bottom for anyone that's not interested in my overly long autistic rambling. Just understand that my purpose here isn't to say op is wrong when they view MakoAmi as a fetish, only to say that assuming everyone sees it that way is incorrect. Not trying to argue, just trying to share an alternate point of view.

I'm always of the opinion that people can like or dislike whatever for whatever reasons or even no reason at all. So if you dislike MakoAmi, that's 100% fine. You don't have to. You can hate it. Even making posts like this to explain why you hate it is fine. If that were all it was I would happily just scroll past and ignore this.

However, the reason why I found this post in the first place is because of this:

Seeing what I felt was a perfectly innocent comment of mine be responded to with this made me think that zelzim here might just be a rage-baiter. I looked to see if that seemed to be the case, and it looks like no, it's just a hatred towards MakoAmi that's apparently so strong it needs to be shared with other people who are just enjoying shipping. They also state in this post that this is just what MakoAmi shippers are like. I don't think it's a good idea to make such assumptions about such a broad group of people.

Honestly, if this was the kind of impression I had of MakoAmi shippers I would at least hate the shippers myself, even if I still liked the ship. Wouldn't be the first time that I found a fandom too unbearable to deal with despite continuing to enjoy the source material myself. This hasn't been the impression I've gotten of MakoAmi shippers though, so kindly allow me to present an alternate point of view.

First, let me address on thing in particular.

I don’t care how you want to justify it, my common sense will filter any pseudo intellectual noise and hear the primate screeches and howls buried beneath the flowery rhetoric. I’m not mad that a ship runs on kink, I’m mad that it LIES about it

So this post is going to go on for quite a bit, and I am going to do my best to present things in a calm, rational way that I think makes sense. I also tend to ramble quite a lot generally. I hope that explaining things calmly and properly will be seen for what it is rather than "pseudo intellectual noise" and "flowery rhetoric". If someone disagrees with my points that's fine, as it's all opinion. I just hope anyone with this kind of view will at least be able to see my points as something that I'm honestly and earnestly trying to convey rather than just trying to sound smart while I defend a ship I like.

At first I thought it was just another surface level contrast, the “tall strong gurl” and “shy brainy gurl”

Honestly, just this on its could answer that not everyone that ships MakoAmi does it as a fetish. It's a dynamic that a lot of people enjoy. For some people that's enough. It's not deep, it's not a fetish, it's just "oh, they look cute together". Period. Is it shallow? Yes. Is it annoying? To some people, sure. Is it bad to ship characters together based on nothing else? No. However, I have far better reasons to ship them.

The next reason I'm going to mention is also a bit shallow. Sailor Moon has been around for a VERY long time. This means that many people first saw it when they were still very young. Even then, lots of kids still like stories of romance, and they'll put their two favorite characters together whether or not it makes sense or they're from the same show or anything else. So for many people that haven't thought all that much about Sailor Moon lately it could simply be a ship from their childhood. I don't think it makes sense to accuse an 8 year old of shipping characters together because of a fetish, and for many adults this is just that they never saw any reason not to ship them since they were an 8 year old. It's nostalgic and so why not? Again, a simple, shallow reason, but I think for a lot of people that's all it is.

My next reason goes directly against something mentioned in this post, so allow me to quote once more.

And it’s only when I began to look at all the art, fics, moodboards, and opinion pieces does the entire fore come into play. Consistently, Makoto is portrayed as the “dominant giver”, and Ami as the “passive receiver”, Mako looming over over like a dominatrix and Ami blushing like a fragile little girl toy. EVERY. DAMN. TIME.

Okay, I'm not going to say you haven't run across those portrayals of them. It would be really dumb if my argument was just "nuh uh". However, take a look at some of these images I found very quickly near the top of an image search.

In this one Makoto is being portrayed in an extremely feminine way. She a blushing, embarrassed girl that's just been confessed to by the person she likes. In plenty of confession scenes like this in anime it's the boy that confesses. Not all, but enough that you can't even say that either of them here are meant to be a stand-in for a man.

Makoto, very girlishly flustered because she's struct by just how attracted she is to the person in front of her. Extremely feminine appearance to Makoto for this scene.

This one goes even further, having Ami as the aggressive, dominant one that pulled Makoto into an unexpected kiss.

In both of these Makoto is taller, sure, and she has her arm around Ami in the second one, but are you going to tell me that that's enough to qualify as a "dominant giver" that's "looming over like a dominatrix"? Even taking the dominatrix thing as hyperbole, this just looks like couples being couples to me. Anyway, with these example and the quote I mentioned in mind, let me finally get to my next point.

One reason why many people like MakoAmi is because it subverts gender rolls and expectations. Yes, Makoto is tall and strong while Ami is short and shy. So despite both being women you could expect people to default to making Makoto "the man" and Ami "the woman" of the relationship. Instead of that, whenever I see a fic where they're adults with jobs Ami is a doctor, going out and working all day to bring in enough money to support them, while Makoto is either a stay at home wife or she's working at a flower shop or some other equally feminine career.

Now, of course, generalizing that because one partner is making more money they're the man and because one partner has a more domestic or traditionally feminine job they're the woman is no good. That's kind of the point though. While Makoto is almost always the more feminine of the two, Ami's femininity is never questioned either. They both get to be girls in love with each other, with no one assuming a dominant role or the position as the "man". There's plenty of queer media that exists out there that does a far worse job of subverting gender roles than this and is still generally considered good representation with a good message.

I love the dynamic of Makoto, as a strong, tall woman, being able to feel comfortable as a feminine woman. She doesn't have to take charge or be on top. She's able to like flowers and fuzzy animals and cute things without feeling out of place as the tall, strong woman because she knows that Ami accepts her and encourages her to be herself.

Even the famous dance scene, which op described as:

a set up that practically punished Makoto for being insufficiently feminine... and have Ami be the “sweet girl who saves the day” to push the fantasy of “nerdy girl tames the Amazonian” fantasy.

is a wild interpretation of a scene that in itself is defying gender norms. Yes, Makoto leads during the dance, but otherwise she's in the far more feminine position of the two. Ami goes up and asks her to dance, which is the kind of thing the man usually does in het relationships. Makoto is feeling "insufficiently feminine", so Ami doesn't go "tame the Amazonian" but instead reassures her that her femininity is recognized and appreciated. Ami's giving the kind of assurance that other shows would have a boyfriend give to his girlfriend, again putting Makoto in the more feminine position. Even if it were "taming" instead of reassuring, you don't think of "fragile little girl toys" taming the "towering dominatrix". That would still be putting Ami as the dominant of the two.

The ship was barely even a thing in the manga, it’s only the 90s anime

You know what, I will agree that it was barely even a thing in the manga. I wouldn't say it was nothing, but it was much less. Part of that is of course because the 90s anime is so stuffed with filler episodes that every potential ship has way more going for it. In the manga most ships other than Usagi and Mamoru were limited to little things that could have been hints or could have been nothing. Given Naoko's track record I'm inclined to believe they were hints, but other people would disagree with me and that's fine.

Even in the 90s anime, everything that could be a hint could also just be nothing but friendship. They even TRY to play off that dance scene as platonic. Other than the dance scene most of the other hints, while more numerous than the manga, aren't any more obvious.

My big issue with that quote is that it's "only" the 90s anime that includes the ship. Sailor Moon has so many different versions of canon that it'd honestly be weird if you could only find really shippy moments in one of them. However in addition to the manga, the 90s anime, and the newer anime, you also have the Japanese live-action drama, and all the musicals (most of which are their own separate canon with their own unique way of events playing out). I haven't watched all the musicals unfortunately, but there's some very shippy moments to be found there. In the live action too, even though they go hard on Makoto x Matoki in that version. (And honestly Matoki in the live action is a delight, it's the only version of him that I care about at all.)

So in the end, no matter which version of canon you're looking at you're never going to find anything more than hints, but you also can't really accuse any one version of leaning too much more into the ship than any other version.

It's also quite the statement to say that "Naoko caved" to give into shippers when the "cave" in question is just one panel that even op says only "teased" at the ship. Especially if Naoko hasn't made any statement suggesting that it wasn't always the plan. (I have a similar dislike to people who say that in RWBY Bumbleby was "caving" to fan demands, and fans of the ship were crying out that they were only ever being queer baited rather that the likely truth that it was always intended to happen but fans are impatient and can't stand to wait for the story to get there. That's a whole different can of worms though.)

Another reason that "the ship only exists for fetish reasons" falls apart is because of how many people out there are asexual, even sex-repulsed, yet still ship the characters together. Like, I guess a sex-repulsed asexual person could still maybe have a fetish, but I really doubt it.

Even if you aren't ace, this seems like a really vanilla ship to accuse of fetishization. You mention the power imbalance, but I just don't see that either in their interactions in canon or the majority of MakoAmi works I see. I usually see them as a pretty wholesome, healthy couple, that each respect and value each other's contributions and consider their roles equal both in life and in their relationship.

Even when I do see Makoto portrayed as more butch and dominant (which does happen, even if in my experience it hasn't been the norm) I've literally NEVER seen it portrayed as a power imbalance or controlling. I'm sure I could probably find something if I searched for MakoAmi fics on ao3 that had the tag "yandere", but I really feel like they'd make Ami the controlling one with all the power. (I'm not going to actually look for those because yandere really isn't my thing. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I admit that's nothing more than a guess.)

Like I said at the beginning, you're allowed to hate MakoAmi and view it as nothing but a fetish and disagree with every single point I've made. But even if you see it as a fetish, I really hope that you'll be able to understand that no everyone sees it that way, and in fact most people probably don't. I hope you took this not as me trying to start an argument, but just sharing an alternative perspective.

So, for those who didn't want to read my whole TED talk, here's the tl;dr:

You can like a dynamic without fetishizing a dynamic

People ship this that are too young to be interested in fetishes

MakoAmi works regularly explore and subvert gender dynamics

MakoAmi works regularly allow Makoto to be feminine and Ami to be strong

While there is no version of canon that makes MakoAmi happen, there's no version of canon that doesn't have some hints towards it either

This is far too vanilla for a ship that's supposedly for nothing but fetish

[zelzim]

I will commend you for at the very least being willing to actually engage my points, after the slew of insults, dismissals, and excommunication that has come my way ever since my tirade against this ship, you are far more reasonable than the average shipper I have had the displeasure of coming across, and I’ll admit, sometimes I come off strong, even hostile, sometimes I lash out at others who didn’t deserve it, but after everything, I’ve just lost patience and good will with this fandom, so if I come off too strong at times, I apologize.

Don’t find much of it convicning though honesty.

I don’t think you’re intentionally trying to invalid my experiences with the fandom, but the way you tried to suggest I shouldn’t judge them all or that “I’ve personally never experienced this” comes off a little dismissive, this seems like a “#NotAllMen tier tactic. I’m not saying every single MakoAmi shipper is a foam mouthed lunatic, but just because some can be civil, doesn’t invalidate my experiences, and doesn’t mean there isn’t a consistent pattern I’ve noticed where some cows tend to be particularly sacred compared to others, and dissent is not tolerated. If I’m being consistently insulted, mocked, blocked, banned, gaslit, and even crisis reported, like I was here on Reddit for sharing similar thoughts.

Then maybe there is an issue with this fandom being unwilling to interrogate its own doctrines, something that even the most rabid and notorious fanbases don’t stoop to. I get you’re “just enjoying a ship”, and I’m just sharing an opinion, why exactly should I compromise my own right to a voice for someone else’s comfort? It’s one thing if people don’t like my opinion, it’s something else entirely when mods have banned me, removed my posts, and even outright lie to me just for SHARING it. I have never seen such a level of institutional hugbox enforcement from any fandom, not even the craziest ones. Star Wars, Sonic, various harem fanbases, they all have done their share of deranged and line crossing behavior, but protecting a ship to this scale? That is absolutely unheard of to me, and brushing it off as “it’s not all” doesn’t address the rot.

And I also find it a little dishonest you are bringing children into the argument (not the first time weirdly enough, but that’s another story). I’m not talking about kids, I’m not talking about childhoods, I’m talking about full grown adults who can’t handle their OTP being even remotely eyes the wrong way, and other full grown adults who will silence to protect their feelings. And it’s also dishonest to pretend like there aren’t children’s properties that haven’t scrutinized, Harry Potter, Disney, Illumination to name a few. Children liking it doesn’t give it a free pass, because I highly doubt no child didn’t like the romance between Usagi and Mamoru in the 90s anime, that didn’t stop the fandom tearing into it for its age gap did it? They didn’t avoid calling it problematic cause they thought they would call kids problematic did they?

So it’s not that deep now all of a sudden? Since when? This site and spaces like it will psychoanalyze, dissect, and look at any piece of media, any scene, any moment at the most microscopic level for the faintest whiff of something problematic, but when those guns are aimed their precious and sacred WLW yuri vibe? Suddenly, we’re told “no friendly fire”, suddenly it’s “Any joke, any franchise, any character, any ship, any thing in the open, even the way men sit, must be tested through the progressive purifier, but not my lesbian ship, because women can NEVER be problematic or be seen as such”. Literally nothing gets that benefit of the doubt, except the untouchable yuri ships, because as long as penis isn’t present, neither is toxicity apparently. If it’s truly shallow, then there wouldn’t be a need to get this defensive of it, right?

My “every MakoAmi art piece is fetish fuel” was more or less hyperbole, and I wasn’t actually saying all MakoAmi art is like that. But here is the other thing, these “wholesome” images you sent me are, at best, selective examples, or at worse, masks that cover the true appeal. You can make wholesome MakoAmi art, you can “subvert” the dynamics, but when I find pieces like these…

I’m not going to be swayed by quick google searches that don’t tend to emphasis the spicy material, and I could have shown you those, that would be cutting, but I think these show even the “wholesome” art reveals the pattern/drive. Making Ami the actual breadwinner in fanfiction doesn’t at all refute my point, it doesn’t retroactively cancel out what the actual meat and potatoes of this “shallow” ship truly is. Instead of Ami being outright pinned, now she had a housewife who is more than capable of pinning her, pure hair splitting. A car doesn’t automatically become different when the paint job changes, especially if the engine is still present. Makoto is still “masculine coded”, and Ami is still “feminine coded” switching the power imbalance from physical to economic doesn’t automatically make the ship “wholesome”, and the fact many MakoAmi shippers seem to think so is rather transparently revealing.

Your reading of the dance scene in episode 147 is nice, but none of it actually addresses what my issue actually is. Your interpretation of it leans on it as a “sweet moment”, my interpretation leans on it as an artificially constructed scene that isn’t for anything else then to manufacture a MakoAmi moment, and it does so by compromising practically everyone else. Making every single guy arbitrarily “scared” of the big girl, when we know no man, except the most weak willed and insecure little bitch, is gonna turn down a powerhouse in peak housewife material packaging. Turning all of Makoto’s friends, Usagi, Rei, and Minako, girls who have lived through hell with her and would die for eachother, suddenly too cock blind and oblivious to notice their best friend is left hanging and hurt. This was in service to tease a shallow dynamic that is nothing else than dommy mommy fantasy, and the amount of glaze it has undeservedly received is unjust. And what are they implying anyway? That if you’re too scary for boys, a girl is your option? That’s not practical or even helpful for women who don’t fit a traditional mold. This scene is an indefensible writing clusteruck that has only been able to avoid scrutiny due to the MakoAmi aura being far too intoxicating and enticing. Considering everything else the 90s anime gets heat for (Usagi/Mamoru age gap, SeiUsa, Rei’s flanderization, the dated animation, the dated structure, the excessive filler), the fact this moment has not only gotten by scar free, but pedestaled shows how much people will sacrifice and compromise on the holy name of this ship.

And you’re misrepresenting what I said, I never said it was only the 90s anime that teased it, I said it was where it started, and even you seemed to have agreed that the entire foundation of the ship is rooted in little else than filler fanservice fluff. There was never any true “WLW pure representation”, and it was likely some horny animators who got off on the height/demeanor contrast, the fandom ran with it unquestionably, completely blind to this reality, of course, how could ANYTHING involving women ever be impure?

And the part where you bring it the ace/sex repulsed examples for your point is where you REALLY start stretching. Just because ace/sex repulsed people can enjoy a ship, that doesn’t mean it isn’t fetish coded, that’s like saying “See? Women can enjoy gangster rap, that means it’s not misogynistic”. This is also overlooking the fact that yes, asexual/sex repulsed people can still enjoy romance, powerplay dynamics, gap moe personalities, and yes, even have fetishes, the fact you admitted this, than immediately shot it down shows you might not be entirely confident in your own convictions. And once again, appealing to biases and personal anecdotes to avoid having to confront the uncomfortable truth of what this ship implies. Calling it “vanilla” is a massive disconnect from the various art and fics out there that actually display what the true appeal of the ship is. Insisting it’s “wholesome” or “I’ve never personally seen anything raunchy” does not retroactively neuter the implications nor make the works that fully reveal them go away.

Overall, thanks for at least not resorting to blocks, bans, vague posts, insults, gaslighting, or any other cheap tactic this fandom has pulled on me, you actually tried to engage in good faith, but not much of this was very convincing to me if I’m being honest, lots of stretching, selective bias, lack of addressing core points, tangents, and non-sequiturs.

Whether you consciously see it as fetish doesn’t matter to me, it will never change the fact this ship’s foundation was hollow and rooted in a superficial height contrast that is a kink slippery slope, and pretending otherwise is willful cope.

[thememedaddy]

[thememedaddy]

[zelzim]

They can’t even defend it without being transparent, that’s how much the engine drives the ship.

[zelzim]

Average MakoAmi stan.

[zelzim]

Donate to Justice for Rylin, organized by Meagan Jacques

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[nature-travel-photography]

A peaceful scene Norway 🇳🇴 - Author: RavishingRye

[thememedaddy]

[zelzim]

Unreal.

[zelzim]

Moonie fandom for you, point out any shit left behind by the elephant in the room, and they will do anything but actually address it.

Insults and saying you are unhinged are among just the few examples.