Caryler. Jopper trash. Barson lover. Gemini. Ravenclaw. Horror/Fantasy nerd. Perpetually waiting for autumn. Assorted other randomness, and I'm not very good at tagging things.
Dear AMC, what’s your next move? – signed, concerned Carylers
The showrunner of The Book of Carol (TBOC) just said he had no intention of making Caryl canon, and he had every intention of exploring the romance between Daryl and Isabelle.
This will be a long post; sit down and get a cuppa tea.
Let’s start with the most important note. TBOC’s core audience consists of Carylers (people who ship Carol and Daryl), Carol fans, and Daryl fans. There is a massive overlap in the audiences, and Carylers comprise most of the core group. Many have been around since the show's beginning; some joined halfway through, and some joined late, but everyone is holding out for Caryl because they finally have a chance at a bright future.
Whether you’re still holding on to hope, you’ve lost it altogether, or you’re trying to hold on for Melissa’s sake – we see you.
For what it’s worth, this is where Nine Lives Two Mics stands. The Games Radar article itself might be chucked in the traffic-inducing drivel category by many fans, and the writer may have taken quotes specifically to make it sound anti-Caryl, but
"The obvious thing to do, and the easier thing to do would be, 'Okay, now they're falling in love and they're a couple.' But I always felt like that would be a mistake because it would feel like you were going into the TV book of tricks,"
Which is as clear as it gets in showing David Zabel’s intentions regarding Caryl's future. You can interpret the rest how you want to because it’s deliberately ambiguous to drive the conversation and clicks and, most importantly, create a divide in the fandom.
But a direct quote is a direct quote.
The showrunner decided to wake up one day, alienate his core audience, and validate the part of the fandom that had never intended to tune into the show in the first place. At best, this is ignorance; at worst, this is intentional. Neither is good for the franchise's future.
Let’s address some of the biggest takes we noticed on social media today.
“But the article writer is an anti-Caryler, and they’ve misrepresented facts before. Don’t fall for it!”
The article is indeed written to piss off Carylers because that is a great way of driving traffic. The headline is written to grab attention. The sub-headline hooks you further, and the body of the article validates the claim made in the headlines. But something that a writer – any writer – cannot do is misrepresent or misquote someone. They can paraphrase a quote, share their understanding, and even embellish if they want to (which this writer has done). But when quotations are added, they do it to signal to you that it’s a quote directly shared by the source. It helps increase the validity of articles.
Misrepresenting/ misquoting a major showrunner of a TV series can get you in legal trouble. The power dynamic leans in favour of the showrunner in this instance. He’s at the helm of a TV show, being interviewed by a writer whose name we didn’t even know until we looked it up. Who do you think is more at risk of getting in legal trouble?
“Trust in Norman and Melissa. Melissa would never return to a show that would tarnish Carol’s character.”
This has been the most popular take today. We agree with all of that. We still trust Melissa’s judgement. If she returned, she wanted what was best for Carol and her fans.
Let’s take a quick look at the hierarchy behind the scenes of a TV show for a second.
“The Showrunner is the individual that has the final say in all aspects of the series. Some showrunners are the show's original creator, while others are brought in by a studio or network to take on the duties…. While the producers, story editors, script coordinators, and staff writers (more on that below) do much of the leg work, the Showrunner calls the shots and makes the final decisions.” (source)
“Showrunner vs. executive producer
The term showrunner denotes which of the multiple executive producers is in charge of the others. This differentiation also indicates that the showrunner has overarching artistic license for the project and therefore usually makes more of the artistic decisions than other executive producers (such as writing, hiring, storyline decisions, etc.).” (source)
Melissa McBride is not the showrunner (we wish). Neither is Norman Reedus. They’re executive producers.
Why do we continue to say we want Melissa and Norman to have more creative input on the show in almost every podcast episode? Why do we keep saying we value their input? Because we want AMC to capitalize on the goldmine and wealth of experience Norman and Melissa have. Besides the showrunner, the network has the final say in the final product we will see on our screens. We want them to give Melissa and Norman what they want for the show.
“But David Zabel said pro-Caryl stuff. He also mentioned not wanting a romance at all.”
Zabel has also mentioned his intentions to ship bait a few times. The Daryl and Isabelle dynamic from S1 is an excellent example of how serious he is about his intentions. The chemistry between Daryl and Isabelle is forced — plain and simple. Daryl wants to go home, but she “insists” that he stay using “her feminine wiles.” It's deeply misogynistic writing that paints “the other woman” as the villain. When in reality, the ire should be directed at the man who wrote that woman into existence.
A showrunner’s responsibility in the promo circuit is to hype the show and their vision for it. Refuting a major ship — especially one that is heavily marketed by the network’s promo campaign — sabotages the PR strategy and puts the show’s future in turmoil.
Outright saying that you don’t intend to make Caryl canon when most of your audience, your leads/EPs, and the network are promoting the heck out of it? That is a bad move. Implying that you want to keep the ambiguity of a 14+ year relationship intact to explore a dynamic less than two months old? That just shows how little you know the characters you’re writing for.
“What Norman and Melissa say is all that matters.”
We wish that could be true because all the promos at SDCC would be worth a whole lot more right about now. Norman and Melissa did a great job of leaning into Caryl and supporting their core audience at SDCC. They really showed up for us, and it was a wonderful sight.
What Norman and Melissa say means a lot for the show’s PR strategy because they’re the face of the show. What they share in interviews directly impacts the show’s viewership. But David Zabel’s quote undermines all that. It undermines Norman and Melissa's effort to show up nonverbally for Carylers. It undermines the positive promo the network has put out for the last couple of weeks in response to the massive support they received from Carylers. The quote also tries to drag Norman into it when he’s done nothing but show his support for Carol, Caryl, and Melissa in the last few months. He’s vocally made an effort to support the audience.
None of this is Pro-Caryl or Pro-McReedus.
What's next?
David Zabel has clarified that he intends to minimize Caryl’s story to highlight Isabelle and Daryl’s dynamic. Whether we like it or not, this directly impacts how Carol’s story is shown in the narrative because Carol and Daryl are interlinked, and her story is heavily focused on bringing Daryl back home. We can’t have another S11 of the flagship show on our hands — not after everything that happened in the last two years.
Is it possible there are other plans that he's deliberately hiding to misdirect? Maybe. But if we take Norman’s and Melissa's happiness at face value, we also take David Zabel’s quote at face value. We don’t get to pick and choose facts because they won’t give Melissa and Norman a fantastic story for TBOC and beyond.
AMC can do that, though. AMC can make a clear-as-day move to counter what was said in that interview and show us what their priority is going forward.
Melissa McBride and Norman Reedus deserve better, and so do we.
So, AMC, we’ll ask again — what’s your next move?
Do you plan on standing with your core audience – which consistently shows up for TBOC and wants to pay their hard-earned dime to watch a story that honours Caryl, Carol, Daryl, Melissa, and Norman – or will you stand by the showrunner who just told your core audience he has no intention of giving them what they want?
I'm going to echo what I said on Twitter about "The Big Three" post on my blog since this where I feel safe speaking up. I'm very sorry I had to direct it at Valhalla who have been Melissa/Carol/Caryl fans' biggest ally on social media up to this point, even using #TheBookofCarol tag to let us know they see her as the main protagonist that she is. I'm also very sorry that as of today, we've reached the two-year mark since the news of the original spinoff's cancelation and this fandom still has to fight for the respect that they and Melissa herself have more than earned. Again, this is why we need a new showrunner with the intuition and authority to change the messaging on the show and on SM, so that Caryl fans not only feel safe, but also eager to watch, pay for, and engage with new material.
I saw that Valhalla acknowledged Carylers' complaints on their post. I wasn't expecting that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any other official account has ever put the needs of the fans over their own need to save face, so I respect and appreciate that. The comments were filling up with voices from other parts of the fandom trying to give Valhalla an out, but it's easy for them to ignore or in some instances mock the issue because their favorite character is represented and they get the satisfaction of a character they hate being left out and her fans being upset about it. It's easy and probably fun for them to accuse us of throwing tantrums, invalidating a very real source of pain for many of us.
There is a long history of fandom bullying and ageism directed at Melissa/Carol/Caryl and their fans to the point of many people, including Melissa herself, having to leave SM. The other factions claim we're a minority, but in reality we're just less active in public spaces because we're made to feel like we don't belong. Caryl fans are very much like the characters in that way and unfortunately other fans and other official accounts take advantage of that.
What happened exactly two years ago has broken our trust and our spirits even more. A lot of us are teetering on the edge of leaving because we're tired of being gaslit and strung along. We're vulnerable and we have triggers. In order to keep engaging with TWD content, we have to feel like its worth it, which means we need to know that the show and everyone affiliated are meeting our needs: that Melissa and Carol are acknowledged for the HUGE impact they've had in the story since S1, not how much they are marketed, and that Caryl is treated like a valid ship.
We need strong leadership for that. Valhalla is a female-led account, so they have the authority to tackle the issues that the actresses and their female fanbases face. A female showrunner would help with that as well. TBOC is fast-approaching, The promotion should focus on hyping the core audience of that show, not alienating them further. We deserve so much better. Melissa deserves so much better. Caryl deserver so much better.
I'm looking forward to hearing what Melissa and Norman have to say about their individual and shared character arcs. It's been a long couple years, and I really want TBOC to be a wonderful experience for Caryl fans. I want the story to be everything that Daryl and Carol deserve.
What's important to me is that Daryl and Carol stay true to themselves, get to go on adventures together as an established couple, confront their traumas in powerful ways, and help each other heal and grow and get stronger. Those adventures could happen anywhere. I don't care. They just need to be in the right hands.
Home is where they're together. It doesn't matter where Daryl and Carol are headed as long as they get to tell their story as they want to, with a showrunner who honours them and is as invested in their future as we are.
We already know they have a future. But in the right hands it's a bright and shiny one.
What's important to me is that Daryl and Carol stay true to themselves, get to go on adventures together as an established couple, confront their traumas in powerful ways, and help each other heal and grow and get stronger. Those adventures could happen anywhere. I don't care. They just need to be in the right hands.
I was so hyped waiting for the TBOC promo last night. For the first time in YEARS I experienced genuine excitement toward a TWD show - I had nearly forgotten what that felt like! It was so, so wonderful seeing Carol again. I loved seeing her riding Daryl's bike and using his crossbow.
The Book of Carol will be the first of any of these spinoffs I'll be watching, and I'm mostly looking forward to it - HOWEVER the trailer definitely left me with some reservations.
The initial teaser we got a few months ago for TBOC came with the tagline "To find home is to find each other" and I thought "gee, they finally got it right! I'm definitely tuning in for that because THAT is the show I've been waiting for since they announced the Caryl spinoff back in 2020!" But then this new trailer didn't convey that same energy at all. The first thing they showed us in the trailer was Daryl and Isabelle....I'm not at all interested in Daryl and his makeshift family. I'm interested in Daryl and Carol. That's it. That's the show we were promised years ago and that's why I'm still here hanging by a thread.
Carol fans were jerked around on the main show for so long, then were promised a Caryl spinoff and had that yanked away, and now this - my threshold for shenanigans is almost nonexistent. I'm feeling hypersensitive to potential ship-bating and storylines with no follow-through and I just don't have the stamina to go through it all again if tptb aren't giving me a reason to keep sticking around. David Zabel in particular is a huge area of concern, as well. He doesn't seem to even fully understand the characters he's been writing about, so I'm not confident he would be able to deliver a satisfying story between Daryl and Carol. I hope I'm wrong on that.
My hope is that the next promo(s) get it together and SHOW us Carylers why we should invest the time into this second season of the show. SHOW me that my worries are misplaced. SHOW me that Daryl hasn't had a total personality transplant, and still cares about Carol as much as Carol cares about him. I know for a fact that Melissa will kill it no matter what. She's such a powerhouse actress and any time she is on screen it's an absolute delight. But I don't want to have to watch a show where we see Carol moving heaven and earth to get to Daryl, meanwhile he's still playing family with the randoms he met in France. That feels awkward and isn't what Carol (or Carylers) deserve.
Norman and Melissa as Daryl and Carol in 205 of The Book of Carol. I need their reunion to be everything we've been waiting for, even better than Terminus.
It's crucial to have a showrunner who understands Caryl's dynamic and steers away from racist, misogynistic writing tropes.
Do you think AMC would ever give us that? It’s either Zabel or some other white guy and as far as I’m concerned, they’re all the same. (Your mileage may vary.) The current one didn’t even watch TWD except for the montage at the end with C*nnie, RJ, Judith and Ezekiel, so he thought they were Daryl’s inner circle. I guess anything would be a step up from that?
A step up won't change anything. A showrunner who understands Caryl's story and does justice to their dynamic is a deal breaker.
So far we've seen what the spinoff looks like from the lens of a middle-aged white man who doesn't have enough background on Daryl and Carol's story (which is also clear in the way characters who identify as female were written on the show). That needs to change, not just for the sake of progress, but to help do justice to all the characters involved.
We touched on this briefly in the final part of our S3 breakdown episodes. The reason we think it's important to have a female showrunner who understands Daryl and Carol – individually and together – is because it will elevate the story overall.
We'll get to see a collaboration between Melissa who is an EP and the female showrunner to find new depths in Carol's character that give us a chance to witness her experience in a whole new way. We'll also get a perspective that understands why a huge chunk of the female audience feels safe with Daryl and why his representation is important to everyone. Finding a balance between his epic, badass moments and his heartfelt moments comes from a lens that understands why the female audience connects so deeply and quickly with Daryl's character. It also does justice to his backstory which helps give voice to abuse survivours, especially abuse survivours who identify as male and often feel unsafe to speak out.
As a WOC, I want to see an experienced female showrunner at the helm. It adds another strong female voice behind the scenes alongside Melissa's. It will help broaden the perspective and help expand on characters – especially POC and female characters – around Daryl and Carol so they're not used as plot devices.
Delivering a story that Carylers will invest their time and money in starts with investing in a showrunner with wherewithal to tap into what the audience is anticipating while maintaining Carol's and Daryl's character integrity.
We want explicit canon, yes. But we want it done right. We want Carol and Daryl to grow from the moment that brings them together romantically. We want them to lean into their personal development while working on their relationship together.
So let me answer your question with a question, dear anon, would you still watch if AMC didn't give you that and everything you're waiting for? Because, in the end, you hold the power to decide whether or not to withdraw your investment and find what you need elsewhere.
I personally need to see that AMC is listening to concerns and see them work with a female showrunner after S2 to move forward.
Having showrunners/EPs who are all "the same," and only hire other creative voices (i.e. all of the directors for S1 and S2) who are also "the same" severely limits the character development for both Carol and Daryl who are far more nuanced than what S1 showed us. That "same" perspective can't reach enough of Caryl's fanbase, which is largely female and also includes a lot of men/boys who don't fit the "conventional" mold (hypersexual, confident, natural-born leader). Yes, AMC can and should give us an experienced female showrunner who knows how to write these characters for their fans because that's the only way to grow viewership. Along with explicit canon, that is also dealbreaker for me.
That's very cryptic, MT. Is AMC trying to get rid of MMB again??? There's no show without Carol! Why can't they get that thru their thick skulls?
Caryl fans are very close to getting what they want, but Norman, Nicotero, and Gimple are trying to ruin everything for us. Again. And AMC is letting them. Again.
This is gross. The fans want Melissa. AMC needs these fans. What exactly is the problem? Season 1 ratings were abysmal when they followed the three stooges' vision. Why wouldn't they give Melissa a chance? They have everything to gain from her increased involvement.
They have two options. Make a hit show or placate the triumvirate. There's no world where a compromise makes everyone happy, but they can make their viewers very happy and profit from it big time. We saw what happened when they picked the triumvirate. Do I need to bring up the numbers again? Post screenshots of what fans want?
They clearly have a big problem that needs fixing. Let her fix it. They should give her what she wants and close asap.
Something that would make me feel a lot more secure about Caryl's future is a showrunner who understands their relationship as deeply as we do and can easily convey that in the show as well as in the media. All this money was presumably spent on making the show look good, but if there's one thing Caryl fans aren't, it's superficial. The story has to grip us, which means the showrunner has to deliver the romantic beats we want in ways that will allow Carol and Daryl to grow together. She (because a female showrunner can write for strong female characters like Carol and speak to the growing number of female viewers with money to spend) has to balance a strong character narrative with an external plot that feels grounded despite all the zombies. That's what made the first few seasons of TWD work so well. That's where the money should go. The writing. AMC should also take note of how excited Caryl fans were to see Melissa get that EP title. We trust her voice. A lot. We trust her instincts. A lot. We would trust her choice in a showrunner, so maybe she should have a big say, and maybe she should even get the chance to co-showrun. That’s a Caryl spinoff I’d come running for.
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