Buffythinker

Personal diary of thoughts about everything | spuffy (btvs) | rolo (marvel x-men) | zutara (atla)

[kenz-eaye]

Recently someone commented on this piece and said Buffy and Angel's relationship is not about purity—it's about sacrifice.

That's true, but only half true. It's about Buffy's sacrifice. Angel performs sacrifice. But ultimately he sacrifices very little.

His greatest act of sacrifice—leaving Buffy—was ultimately another act of avoidance, in a long list of avoidant acts, and only catalyzed by Buffy’s growing needs and Joyce’s intervention. The only noble thing about it was him finally owning up to his complete inability to embrace true redemption so long as he could use Buffy as his redemptive vessel. Angel easily could have gone to Africa to get rid of his curse—but he did not feel he had earned the right to be uncursed.

When he is dying from Faith's poison arrow, Buffy sacrifices her own honor and morals to save him. And when she fails to bring Faith to him, she sacrifices herself to save him. Her sacrifice was not met with a mutual offering—Angel ultimately does not refuse. As Xander says: Angel drank from the girl he loves to save his own ass.

Spike sacrifices his life so that Buffy can live. So that Sunnydale is completely demolished. So she can escape it forever and have a chance at a life away from the Hellmouth.

For Spike, sacrificing himself for the woman he loves is the deepest possible honor—not just because he loves her, but because Buffy has always needed someone to sacrifice for her the way she would for them.

This is the reversal that makes Spike Buffy's most meaningful love: he is the one who sacrificed himself for the one who always sacrifices herself.

[no-resolution]

I actually don't think that Giles is out of character in seasons 6 and 7. I do wish his plotline had been handled better, but I don't think that abandoning Buffy and then returning and attempting to reassert his control over the situation is outside of the realm of what early-seasons Giles would have done under the right circumstances.

Giles has a history of distancing himself after being upset that she doesn't need him anymore (season 4) and likely would have been completely broken after his nightmare from season 1 "Nightmares" came true. He's also been talking about leaving for England since season 4. Combine all of these things, and it makes sense to me that he 1). would leave and 2). would come back only to leave again because of his avoidant personality and how painful it is. I do think that the show under-justifies his leaving and he looks bad for doing this, but I don't think that the action itself is out of character. When he comes back after Buffy has been resurrected, he tries to help her (give her money), because he can't truly shake his paternal feelings towards her, but feels that he can't get too close, in case he loses her again. So, he loses her by his own choice.

When he comes back in season 7, his behavior reads to me like someone who is overcorrecting for his past bad behavior. He feels bad for leaving Buffy and wants to reassert his authority in the situation, which he feels has spiraled in his absence. This is likely also fueled by his long-established fear that Buffy doesn't need him being realized, and he wants to demonstrate his value to her again. He feels useless, so he goes behind her back and tries to undermine her authority (something he has done before in "Helpless" and "the Gift"). Also, a major theme of s7 is that Buffy has fully accepted her role as the Slayer, and that it is intimidating and frustrating for her friends, who are more used to a democratic approach to world-saving, and this frustration extends to Giles.

It does hurt to see Giles be added to the list of characters that failed Buffy, but I don't really think that it's out of character.

[xxlionheartedgirlxx]

I don't know why in season 7 the First didn't impersonate Buffy more. Like I get they might not have wanted SMG to have too much to do. (Idk if that's the actual reason. I don't know how nice to the actors they actually tried to be.) But like all The First had to do as appear as Buffy once at the house and Buffy would have to prove she was corporeal every time after. None of the potential s would trust that it was really her unless they saw her pick something up. The ecologies would have to think back, was that the outfit she had on before? Didn't she say she was going patrolling? Is that really my sister telling me that or is the first trying to get in my head? And when Buffy is being sharp and drill sergeant-y, they question is this even really buffy? Buffy would never say that. Buffy would never be that harsh. But wait--i can feel her, touch her. She really is the one saying the things I don't want to hear.

I just feel like that was really an missed opportunity. Which I get is what a lot of S7 is. Missed opportunities and better ideas than execution. But still. Maybe there's fix somewhere....

[angrysandwichphantom]

This is actually brilliant. Seriously. It would perfectly explain why Scooby and the Potentials turned on Buffy and threw her out of her own house—they were being driven by their fear of the First, even to the point of paranoia. That would be a much more believable motivation for such a strange and out-of-character thing to do.

[no-resolution]

One Spuffy take that genuinely confuses me is that Buffy was an active participant in Spike's redemption arc. That she fixed him. That's not what their seasons 5/6 dynamic is. Spike is in love with Buffy, and her feelings about him are slightly ambiguous. He is trying to be better in order to win her favor, and as it goes, he starts to be able to do good things without an ulterior motive. Most of the time, Buffy believes that, because he is a soulless vampire, Spike is incapable of truly being good. She tells him as much several times. There are rare instances where she treats him like a human and 1 (one!) time where she rewards him for being a good person ("Intervention" kiss). Otherwise, she sees him alternately as a useful tool in battle, something to have sex with in order to cope with her depression, and someone whom she has complicated romantic feelings for but represses it. She does not see him as someone worthy of redemption or make any efforts to personally further that redemption until after he regains his soul, a choice he makes all on his own. Buffy isn't invested in Spike's redemption. She doesn't believe that redemption is even an option for him, much less does she help facilitate it. She doesn't "fix" him.

Spuffy isn't an "I can fix him" fantasy, it's a "he fixes himself" fantasy.

[blush-and-books]

"you taste like ashes" one of my favorite lines in this insane series ever. this moment will be carved into my gravestone. drusilla tells spike he tastes like ashes before he even knows he's in love with buffy, and one could say that it's in regards to buffy being some equivalent to sunlight, so appealing and warm but undoubtedly damage-inflicting on spike. of course she'll burn him to ash. but spike tells buffy "im drowning in you," which isn't burning, it's the floods. she was going to be a fireman when the floods rolled back. spike is drowning. and then he gets a soul, and THAT burns, and she's burning him up from the inside, and he dies, swallowed in light. his love for buffy does, eventually, turn him to ash.

[angrysandwichphantom]

Sometimes I wonder how Joss Whedon originally planned to get Buffy and Xander together. I'm insanely grateful it never happened, but I can't help but ask myself, "What if it had? How would it have gone?"

I have a couple of theories.

He wanted Xander to be Buffy's endgame after Riley in s5. Maybe get them together based on the idea that, unlike Angel or Riley, Xander was always there for her—she just needed time to see it.

He wanted Xander to be Buffy's endgame after Spike in s7. Get them together because Spike turned out to be properly evil by attacking her, Willow was off with Giles, and Xander was the one who stayed and helped her pick up the pieces.

In both cases, the core idea is Buffy noticing what was right in front of her all along when it's almost too late. And both scenarios could have used the "Always yours" bracelet he gave her in s1. You know, like Buffy still has it, and it signifies that Xander is still hers?

This all sounds like I'm just brainstorming material for a shipping fanfic. Sorry, but ew. No. Yuck.

I'm glad it never happened. I'm perfectly happy with the world we got. But I'm just curious about how they originally planned to execute it. Did Joss abandon the idea early on, or was he slowly building toward it the whole time, only to have something (Spike) constantly get in the way?

I'm just too curious for my own good, so my brain goes there. It's one of those questions I'll never get an answer to, and it's not like I need one. No, definitely don't need it.

[professeurm]

in a different universe, spike is a dad 😭

alt text:

Thessaly: I know it's bad timing but you wanna meet my stepdad?

Cora: Do I smell like demon?

Thessaly: He's a vampire, he probably won't even notice

[no-resolution]

I think I know what he was going to say...

[swarmofbees13]

I get what they were trying to do with seeing red. I get that they were trying to show the toxicity and messiness of spike and bufffy’s relationship. I get that they were trying to show the conflict between right and wrong plaguing spike. I get that they wanted to create intense guilt as a motivator for Spike’s redemption.

I also get that they wanted to give willow a reason to go dark. I get that Tara was the most tragic choice to hurt because she’s pure good. I get that they were trying to be dramatic.

But no. This was not the way

[angrysandwichphantom]

I have a love-hate relationship with s6. Actually, scratch that. It's more of a full-blown bdsm relationship with no safe word. It punishes me for deciding to keep watching after s5, but it's so damn good at it that I can't help but enjoy the pain. I'm just waiting for the torment to be over, yet I'm completely captivated.

And yet, it is good. It tackles heavy issues, has a solid structure, and masterfully balances charisma with sheer depression. That's why I love it.

But that doesn't mean I won't wonder about the "what ifs."

So, one of the things that bothers me most this season is how Buffy's storyline was handled. I feel like I didn't quite get it.

The entire season, she believed she was brought back wrong. She blamed herself for seeing friends as enemies and enemies as friends. She punished herself for feeling broken.

All season long, we were right there with Buffy, forced to ask: why does she perceive her world this way? Is it because she's become a creature of the dark, like a vampire? Is it because her mind was put back wrong after the resurrection?

Or is it because she used to pretend everything was fine for her friends' sake, and now that facade is finally crumbling?

You see, this season was the perfect culmination of the conflict between Buffy and the Scoobies. For five seasons, we watched the thread of their relationship being pulled tighter and tighter. By s6, it's stretched to its absolute limit, ready to snap. That's how little they care about Buffy's state of mind, and how toxic her silence has become.

A silence that was finally broken in "Once More, with Feeling," where Buffy literally sang her truth. The Scoobies heard her confession, so the situation should change, right? The tension created by their pressure and her silence should finally ease now that Buffy has found her voice, shouldn't it?

But it doesn't. The thread is still taut because the Scoobies ignored Buffy's direct cry for help. In fact, it pulled everything even tighter, pushing Buffy further away and into the shadows with Spike.

It sounds like a vicious cycle where things just get worse with every episode. But nothing can last forever. Sooner or later, that thread had to snap.

And this is where my problem with the season begins: the thread doesn't snap.

We were given the perfect setup for it: Buffy dumps Spike and finally breaks the cycle. Finally, she does something that makes her feel genuinely free from the guilt, and she likes it. She's glowing, and it's not because the dress is radioactive.

This was the perfect moment to re-examine what was "wrong" with Buffy. Remember, the season kept asking us: what's wrong with her? And through Tara's words, it gave us the answer: nothing. She's fine. Her feelings and behavior are completely justified.

And in that moment of true liberation from self-torment, Buffy should have asked: if I'm okay, then why have I been feeling all of this? Who is actually in the wrong here?

It's not Spike. Throughout the season, he wasn't the source of Buffy's depression. Their toxic relationship was a symptom of her state, not the cause. In fact, when Buffy rejected the toxicity, her dynamic with Spike almost began to heal because she started talking to him again. Honestly, openly, without a trace of shame in front of him or anyone else.

Their dialogue scene in "Hell's Bells" is a breath of fresh air in the closed loop of their destructive relationship. Because the loop is broken.

But if Spike isn't the source of Buffy's problems, then who has been all along?

And this is where the season should have answered: The Scoobies. For example, after Xander left Anya at the altar, Buffy could have asked herself, "Was that the right thing to do?" Maybe that would have made her start looking at her friends'actions from an outside perspective. To see their actions through the eyes of Anya and Tara and realize that it's Willow and Xander who hurt the people they love, not Buffy. That they are the ones making mistakes, not her. And that would have led to the ultimate question: what if they've been wrong all along?

Do you see what I'm getting at? The central question of the season—what's wrong with Buffy—needed to find its answer so that the strained thread of her relationship with the Scoobies could finally snap. This Chekhov's gun had to go off and finally break the vicious cycle of Buffy's pain. The arrogance and impunity of her friends finally needed to have consequences.

I'm not saying she should have told them to fuck off and never spoken to them again. No, I'm talking about a final liberation from guilt. That guilt was the source of Buffy's depression, and the Scoobies had been feeding it the entire show. This needed to change to lead us to the season's main theme: life is movement.

Buffy was standing still, which is why she felt more dead than alive. Only changing her circumstances made her feel better.

So, the third act of the s6 after "Hell's Bells" could have given Buffy a chance to keep making those changes. To introduce change into her relationship with the Scoobies.

I'm sure it would have been good for them: to look at themselves from the outside, see what they were becoming, and want to be better. Imagine if Spike hadn't been the only one who wanted to change. What if Willow wanted to change not just to earn Tara's forgiveness, but simply to stop hurting the people she loved with her ambition? What if Xander wanted to change to avoid turning into his parents and become someone truly worthy of Anya? Imagine if everyone this season had wanted to change. To move forward. And to move forward is to live.

What an incredible sense of hope that would have given us. It would have been a beacon of light in an impenetrable ocean of pain and darkness. It would have taught us that after every dark patch, there is light, and you can only reach it by starting to change the things around you.

But instead, we got "Seeing Red."

So I guess we just have to deal with it🤷

[douglasbradburyverne]

The TV movies & miniseries of Hallmark/RHI Entertainment were some of the most imaginative and creative shows I saw as a kid

[angrysandwichphantom]

Thank you, I will definitely check out most if not all of these things. Some of them made my childhood

[ceciliastark]

spike being pretty much the same when he’s soulless vs has a soul honestly makes it harder to defend his soulless actions with the excuse that he is soulless… like the ONLY good thing about angelus being angel’s polar opposite is it’s very easy to separate their actions because they are pretty much different people, spike staying the same makes it harder to compartmentalize his actions between when he didn’t have a soul and when he got one

[angrysandwichphantom]

But isn't that the whole point? The soul means a chance for any vampire to redeem themselves. It's the very foundation for both Angel's and Spike's personal journeys.

But does having a soul erase the consequences of the demon's actions? Isn't the entire point of getting a soul for the demon to become more human and atone for its sins? To earn forgiveness?

I really love this meta about what a soul gives a vampire. That ability to change means you're willing to acknowledge your mistakes and learn from them, so you don't repeat them.

But if a soul automatically divorces you from your past misdeeds, how can you truly change? How can you atone for something you supposedly didn't even do?

[ceciliastark]

I should’ve included this in my original post because I think a lot of people misinterpret what I mean. I meant this through the eyes of buffy herself ! not spike in general

[angrysandwichphantom]

Thanks for clearing that up, it makes sense.

As far as I remember, within the narrative, Buffy never really saw Spike as two different people—one with a soul and one without. The soul just made it possible for her to actually trust that he had changed.

And when the show talked about Spike changing, it wasn't like he became a whole new person. It was really about him finally getting a sense of right and wrong—a conscience. Change ≠ innocence, so it doesn't just wipe the slate clean of all the crap he pulled.

That's why, in Buffy's eyes, Spike having a soul doesn't split him into two guys: one guilty and one innocent. It's all just him.

So, I believe she rather forgave him than defended his soulless actions. And like I said before—you can’t really be forgiven for something you didn’t even do.

[ceciliastark]

spike being pretty much the same when he’s soulless vs has a soul honestly makes it harder to defend his soulless actions with the excuse that he is soulless… like the ONLY good thing about angelus being angel’s polar opposite is it’s very easy to separate their actions because they are pretty much different people, spike staying the same makes it harder to compartmentalize his actions between when he didn’t have a soul and when he got one

[angrysandwichphantom]

But isn't that the whole point? The soul means a chance for any vampire to redeem themselves. It's the very foundation for both Angel's and Spike's personal journeys.

But does having a soul erase the consequences of the demon's actions? Isn't the entire point of getting a soul for the demon to become more human and atone for its sins? To earn forgiveness?

I really love this meta about what a soul gives a vampire. That ability to change means you're willing to acknowledge your mistakes and learn from them, so you don't repeat them.

But if a soul automatically divorces you from your past misdeeds, how can you truly change? How can you atone for something you supposedly didn't even do?

[angrysandwichphantom]

This scene from s7 makes me think.

Buffy loves Angel with a soul—that’s a fact. However, she doesn't need him, neither when he has a soul nor especially when he loses it.

[...] that’s what I need: someone I can count on. (3х05)

Funny enough, she loves Spike with a soul, but she also needs him without one. There are no parts of his personality that she denies or suppresses for the illusion of a comfortable relationship.

Without a soul, he’s unreliable. With a soul alone, he’s useless as an ally. Spike doesn’t suit her when he relies on only one part of himself. She needs him whole—both with a soul and without it. She needs him with a strong moral compass and with the bloodthirsty nature of a warrior.

It sounds somewhat pragmatic, but that’s Buffy. She herself is an extremely dual-natured person, combining things that shouldn’t go together: playfulness and seriousness, awkwardness and battle-ready coordination, the mundane and the supernatural, etc. She needs someone who can also harmoniously balance between opposing traits within themselves—between reliability and danger.

Angel was loved but unnecessary. Riley was necessary but not loved. Spike is both loved and needed.

[femmedefandom]

oh, I just had an idea! we know that Giles left Sunnydale in season six because the actor wanted some time off, right? and so the writers decided that the best way to do it would be for Giles to choose to leave. but since they obviously didn’t want to kill him off (in order to bring him back), wouldn’t it have been cool to really use the opportunity to play around?

like if it happened in the beginning of the season, Giles with all his prior concussions could’ve been knocked out and in a coma for a while. or he could’ve gone on a journey to a ultra secret, closed off library to research the effects of resurrection spells like Buffy’s and potentially lay the groundwork for the First. maybe he could’ve talked to Buffy about needing to find a magic tutor for Willow and it would take a while to find the right fit/someone willing to go to a Hellmouth and make his return something that had been foreshadowed.

a more down to earth possibility could’ve been a death in his family and him needing to go back to get the affairs in order (and show regular check-in phone calls or referencing him in conversation). and it would add an extra element to Buffy feeling separate because he’s coming to terms with a more permanent death and she’s not as important when she’s back to life.

I could also see him making a deal with the Council to access their private libraries but they stipulate sending a Watcher to replace him - which could add some drama (why is there a vampire, what’s going on with Willow’s magic, is that guy marrying a former demon?) or provide a helping hand (hey Watcher HQ, yeah, our Slayer is nearly bankrupt and about to lose custody of her sister, anything we can do there? we also have a very unregulated magic user, any witches willing to train her? she’s really powerful. etc.)

there were just so many other ways the writers could’ve taken him out of play, it sucks that they chose to dismantle another pillar of Buffy’s support system by making a pseudo father figure choose to leave her alone in her time of need. for no reason other than erroneously believing she needs to stand alone.

[angrysandwichphantom]

The world, if the narrative didn’t hate Spike and Buffy for their relationship and feelings for each other

But seriously, I can't stop thinking about what Spuffy could have been like if they hadn't started ruining them in s6.

On one hand, I like their existing dynamic (not SR, I condemn that). Even though it's toxic, it's a realistically written relationship between true enemies who are torn apart by their feelings. It couldn’t have been any other way.

But knowing that Joss Whedon intentionally sabotaged them doesn’t let me rest. I feel like somewhere out there, there’s a real story of these characters that was misrepresented because of one person’s preferences.

And now I want to know what we missed. I feel like there’s a missed opportunity for understanding, and it’s eating at me.

On the other hand, would Spuffy have lost its uniqueness if things had been different? For example, what if the writers had tried to justify Spike’s actual misdeeds just to make him more likable to the audience? I respect the work of the writers who gave us this dynamic, but I can’t stop doubting.

What if a softer approach to their writing had stripped them of their honesty and turned them into just another ship where the script ignores the characters’ flaws for the sake of a pretty image?

Curiosity battles doubt, and I decided to write a post about it.

[angrysandwichphantom]

If you drink holy water, will it affect the holiness of a person's blood? I mean would the holiness be absorbed into the bloodstream or just pass through as urine?

Anyway would it protect people from vampire attacks?

And how is holy water even made (what if the Buffyverse has special rules about it)? How rare is this resource? And could you consecrate not just water, but other liquids as well? Like blood, for instance? Or vampire blood? 😕

Could the water supply in Sunnydale be consecrated, making the sewer system unsafe for vampires? Supply holy water to every home? You could just turn on the kitchen tap and kill a vampire. Sounds convenient.