a useless place

for all my fandom opinions I don't want clogging my main. [she/her] 💜 aro/ace 💚 🇵🇸

[antarusabove]

My biggest issue whenever people bring up Kon and Clark's tenuous relationship in canon is that usually, people have Bruce (or other "Gary Stu" adjacent figure) absolutely ragging on Clark for not accepting Kon because "he's not a clone, he's his child," and "he needed someone to teach him not to abuse his powers". And I can tell the reason they always refute this specific point is that there really isn't another argument.

For the latter, the same way Batman isn't obligated to take on a Robin or protege (ex. his constant attempts at trying to force Stephanie Brown to stop being a vigilante and his later firing of her as Robin), Clark isn't obligated to teach Conner (or even Kara to an extent). While it would objectively be the moral thing to do, Kon is not his child like Jon is. He did not consent to his creation,

And for the former, it doesn't matter what label Kon is biologically. Like the fundamental aspect of why he's so unaccepting of him is that he was VIOLATED. His DNA was STOLEN against his will and used to create a weapon. He'd been working his entire life so that he wouldn't be seen or used as a weapon against humanity, and then indirectly, he did it anyway. Kon is literally a reminder that he will always be dangerous, even unintentionally. The fact that he calls him a clone or a child doesn't change any of that.

[hauntedsandwing]

i think there's something to be said about calling their canon relationship "tenuous"... because, really, that isn't the case at all. from their first interaction during the reign of the supermen storyline in 1993 till now, kon and kal's relationship has been overwhelmingly positive.

even when kal barely knows kon, within Maybe two weeks of them meeting, kal is instantly willing to go to bat to protect kon if cadmus tries anything (adventures of superman #506):

in superboy (1994) #59, kal is the one to give kon the name "kon-el", specifically because he sees kon as family:

both before and after the lex luthor retcon in 2003, kal never onces blames kon for kon's creation, because he knows it wasn't his fault. i mean, the entire reason lex says he created kon was because he wanted to use what kal loved against him, and knew kal would love kon (teen titans 2003 #25):

i think, despite yours original tags, that both sides of this debate are steeped in fanon. of course, if it wasn't, then kal would be well within his rights not to take on kon as any sort of apprentice due to feeling uncomfortable with his creation — however, that's not the case. it would honestly be out of character for kal to blame kon for being a clone of him, because he is, at the end of the day, incredibly kind and understanding. he blames lex luthor (or paul westfield, if we're discussing pre-teen titans 2003) for the cloning of his DNA.

kon loves kal, and kal most definitely loves kon, too. there are so many moments in the comics where you can practically feel the care they harbor towards each other oozing off the pages. one of my favorite examples, along with the ones already referenced above, is this panel from superboy (1994) #60:

their bond is incredibly deep and meaningful, and in my opinion, both sides of this debate disregard that. kal doesn't think less of kon or is distrustful of him because of his creation, he knows that kon is just a boy and means the best, as seen in teen titans (2003) #26:

there are many other moments that span over the years that also support this, but i'll keep this short.

all in all, kal and kon's relationship is not tenuous at all. their dynamic with each other is positive and very sweet, and kal accepted kon into his life pretty immediately.

[all-wasbutfrost]

thank you for this. i get tired of fandom driving a wedge between them that doesn’t exist. i mean write whatever story you want for fanfic, i’m cool with that, but as far as canon discourse goes, they do in fact have a good relationship with each other. just wanted to add some more panels to show this:

edit since i saw another reply saying you meant this to be a response to fanon, but the original post does in fact say canon.

[antarusabove]

My biggest issue whenever people bring up Kon and Clark's tenuous relationship in canon is that usually, people have Bruce (or other "Gary Stu" adjacent figure) absolutely ragging on Clark for not accepting Kon because "he's not a clone, he's his child," and "he needed someone to teach him not to abuse his powers". And I can tell the reason they always refute this specific point is that there really isn't another argument.

For the latter, the same way Batman isn't obligated to take on a Robin or protege (ex. his constant attempts at trying to force Stephanie Brown to stop being a vigilante and his later firing of her as Robin), Clark isn't obligated to teach Conner (or even Kara to an extent). While it would objectively be the moral thing to do, Kon is not his child like Jon is. He did not consent to his creation,

And for the former, it doesn't matter what label Kon is biologically. Like the fundamental aspect of why he's so unaccepting of him is that he was VIOLATED. His DNA was STOLEN against his will and used to create a weapon. He'd been working his entire life so that he wouldn't be seen or used as a weapon against humanity, and then indirectly, he did it anyway. Kon is literally a reminder that he will always be dangerous, even unintentionally. The fact that he calls him a clone or a child doesn't change any of that.

[hauntedsandwing]

i think there's something to be said about calling their canon relationship "tenuous"... because, really, that isn't the case at all. from their first interaction during the reign of the supermen storyline in 1993 till now, kon and kal's relationship has been overwhelmingly positive.

even when kal barely knows kon, within Maybe two weeks of them meeting, kal is instantly willing to go to bat to protect kon if cadmus tries anything (adventures of superman #506):

in superboy (1994) #59, kal is the one to give kon the name "kon-el", specifically because he sees kon as family:

both before and after the lex luthor retcon in 2003, kal never onces blames kon for kon's creation, because he knows it wasn't his fault. i mean, the entire reason lex says he created kon was because he wanted to use what kal loved against him, and knew kal would love kon (teen titans 2003 #25):

i think, despite yours original tags, that both sides of this debate are steeped in fanon. of course, if it wasn't, then kal would be well within his rights not to take on kon as any sort of apprentice due to feeling uncomfortable with his creation — however, that's not the case. it would honestly be out of character for kal to blame kon for being a clone of him, because he is, at the end of the day, incredibly kind and understanding. he blames lex luthor (or paul westfield, if we're discussing pre-teen titans 2003) for the cloning of his DNA.

kon loves kal, and kal most definitely loves kon, too. there are so many moments in the comics where you can practically feel the care they harbor towards each other oozing off the pages. one of my favorite examples, along with the ones already referenced above, is this panel from superboy (1994) #60:

their bond is incredibly deep and meaningful, and in my opinion, both sides of this debate disregard that. kal doesn't think less of kon or is distrustful of him because of his creation, he knows that kon is just a boy and means the best, as seen in teen titans (2003) #26:

there are many other moments that span over the years that also support this, but i'll keep this short.

all in all, kal and kon's relationship is not tenuous at all. their dynamic with each other is positive and very sweet, and kal accepted kon into his life pretty immediately.

[antarusabove]

thanks for the reply! it was really interesting to know how close they actually are within such a short timeframe.

yeah you're right to be honest this was mostly in response to fanon. I'm aware they have a closer relationship in canon but admittedly I'm not super well read on superfam stuff lol.

Honestly this was less to do with actual canon and more just a general argument because those arguments made me legitimately angry since there seemed to be no consideration for how Clark would feel. I'm aware that my argument is OOC! I don't think in a million years Clark would just abandon Kon like fanon likes to act like he does, but i was just saying that if he chose not to be a father figure to him it's within his right basically

[antarusabove]

My least favorite thing about damijon/jondami is that...it tends to lean into a lot of typical shota tropes? Especially regarding Jon, and it honestly creeps me out. It's so weird. I was looking through my old Ao3 bookmarks, and it becomes so obvious not only how OOC Jon always is but just how much he's simultaneously infantilized and adultified (is that the right word?) in fics that want to make him have this weirdly kiddish crush on Damian while also making him super possessive.

Just an example: It's very very common in these kinds of fanfictions to have the trope where Jonathan loudly proclaims he's gonna marry Damian when he's older and then Jonathan continues to "pursue" Damian, making him promise to "wait" for him (which Damian agrees to?? For some reason??) up until he's 18 (and Damian is TWENTY ONE) and then Damian "relents" and agrees to date him.

Or I've seen ones where after Jonathans extremely traumatic time in the volcano he...tells Damian they're old enough to date now??? LIke I vividly remember this happening way too many times. And there's more examples, like scenarios where Damian dates a girl because yk, he's a teenager, and Jonathan gets extremely jealous and threatens her?? Not to mention when they just make Jon straight up stupid because "that's how kids are".

Jon is made into Damian's lap dog in the worst way (quite literally at times where they turn him into basically Damian's guard dog and call him as such). And I can't help making these comparisons, especially now that I can recognize these tropes.

ALSO. THE WAY THEY ALWAYS TREAT JAY LIKE SHIT. I have unironically seen fics where they say the only reason Jonathan is with Jay is because he "looks like Damian"...because they're both asian. Like that is the exact justification they have given (in different words but essentially the same thing). Jay is turned into this jealous ex/scorned mistress where all people know is that he's a journalist and not the fact he's the son of a president and a victim of human trafficking.

My least favorite aspect of this trope is whenever Jonathan date Jay--whether this is after a confession, post damijon break-up, or hell, just happens to be dating AT ALL even if neither Damian or Jonathan gave any indication to the other that they have any interest in them-- Jonathan is made out to be some kind of bad-guy by both the narrative and the batfam.

You have Jason threatening to shoot Jonathan with kryptonite bullets, Bruce refusing him into Gotham, Cassandra threatening him in the middle of the night etc. All because. Jonathan. Chose. Not to date a child. Because to be clear, that is what has to be happening if there is any preservation of the timeline at all. Jonathan has to be around 17-19 and post age-up, and Damian can't be older 16, if that.

Also another trope I hate that I'm adding to the end here because I remembered it against my will. Jay using Jonathan so he can get information on the Waynes to "further his dreams in journalism". That is so incredibly moronic and genuinely disrespectful. They know nothing of why Jay wants to be a journalist or even what kind of journalism he does.

For any author who reads this and wants to use any of these tropes with Jay , just use an OC. Don't disrespect an activist and victim by turning him into a gossip chaser.

[antarusabove]

My biggest issue whenever people bring up Kon and Clark's tenuous relationship in fanon is that usually, people have Bruce (or other "Gary Stu" adjacent figure) absolutely ragging on Clark for not accepting Kon because "he's not a clone, he's his child," and "he needed someone to teach him not to abuse his powers". And I can tell the reason they always refute this specific point is that there really isn't another argument.

For the latter, the same way Batman isn't obligated to take on a Robin or protege (ex. his constant attempts at trying to force Stephanie Brown to stop being a vigilante and his later firing of her as Robin), Clark isn't obligated to teach Conner (or even Kara to an extent). While it would objectively be the moral thing to do, Kon is not his child like Jon is. He did not consent to his creation,

And for the former, it doesn't matter what label Kon is biologically. Like the fundamental aspect of why he's so unaccepting of him is that he was VIOLATED. His DNA was STOLEN against his will and used to create a weapon. He'd been working his entire life so that he wouldn't be seen or used as a weapon against humanity, and then indirectly, he did it anyway. Kon is literally a reminder that he will always be dangerous, even unintentionally. The fact that he calls him a clone or a child doesn't change any of that.

[thelesbianthespianposts]

hey btw every time you dumb down a superhero in order to make the resident Bat look smarter an angel fucking dies

[astriddestelle]

You know I’d prob like Batman more if his stans and his fandom didn’t act like he’s the best thing to ever happen in the DC world.

They straight up turn him into a Gary Stu in almost every fanfic centering on him. He’s super strong, super smart, super handsome, most competent member on the Justice League, the best dad ever etc etc and like damn yall hope off his dick. (Heh)

He’s literally said multiple times if Superman wanted to kill him he could and would. Bro is not beating anyone in the main Justice league lineup

Like no Batman is not the most competent member of the Justice League truthfully it’s probably fucking Diana cause she handles her shit.

No he’s not the best dad (don’t get me started) it’s fucking Wally or Barry depending on the lineup. The Flash family is literally known for being the happy wonderful family yall like to pretend the Batfam is.

Bruce isn’t adopting every kid he sees of the street (his robins were so circumstantial it’s not even funny) but you know who totally would Clark.

It’s just insane cause everything they try to say Batman is, is really just a mashup of the other justice league characters and I feel like I’m the only one who sees this and I’m going crazy.

I wouldn’t really mind if it was just seen as like a perfect Batman and Batfam make believe alternate earth (since there’s like 50 of em) but so many people treat it as canon and status quo and I feel like the plot has been lost?

[femmehaljordan]

I have come to you to bitch about things! To bitch I say!

I love Hal Jordan. I actually love him so much, right? I respect him as a character and adore a lot of what goes into who he is. Unfortunately I can’t go through his tag. ‘Why can’t you go through his tag?’ you probably aren’t asking because this issue isn’t anything new. I can’t go through it because 90% of the posts there (angry exaggeration) are Batfam/Bruce Wayne text posts with a ‘Hal Jordan feature’ that horribly mischaracterizes him as a guy who beefs with children! Oh and not to mention Guy! I can’t go through his tag a lot of the time because it can be so horribly ableist actually. Other people have said this better than me so that’s all I’ll give on the topic, but it’s so upsetting.

Ollie’s tag is also so horribly trashed, because a lot of the time, he’s either being used as ‘punching bag for Bruce is a good dad plot’, ‘side character in text post to say something he’d never say’ or, worst of all, ‘boiled down to the base trait ‘other billionaire’ (even though he oftentimes isn’t one) and used to give Bruce a childhood friends to lovers story’ or whatever.

I love shipping, do what you want ship what you ship, but I don’t understand how you can ship two characters if you don’t have fundamental understandings of both. I see it all the time! I’ve seen good Batarrow, but a lot of the time it’s just ‘Bruce and another billionaire he used to know’ instead of Bruce and Oliver. SuperBat is great a lot of the time, but I see Supes take such a backseat in so much of the content, like it’s ‘Bruce and his boyfriend’ instead of ‘boyfriends’. This does extend to Tim, because most problems do. All of Tim’s ships that I’ve witnessed are only ever supported by a fundamental misunderstanding of the character he’s shipped with.

Thanks for letting me bitch. Love your blog. Please never stop doing what you do, because having a safe space to share unpopular opinions and educate each other on racism and sexism in comics like you’ve created is so important in fandom.

!!!!!!!!

Believe me I am WELLLLLL aware of the state of the Hal and Ollie tags in fact I say we bring these back

I made these in April when the state of the Green Lantern tags was like so bad. And then one of my friends (or my partner might’ve been them) asked about Ollie ones. And then other people in that group were asking for Jason ones so I have a whole bunch of banners that I posted a while ago, but I’m bringing these one specifically back for this. 

And I’ve talked about my dislike for Timkon before, but that absolutely does extend into regular superbat. Because it’s so hard to find content that’s actually true to either of their characters honestly, but it especially puts down the super to put up the bat.

Also???? Thank you???? Literally all of this started because I went on a bitchy rant about hating fanon Tim in like February

[antarusabove]

Generally I've started developing an unreasonable hatred towards most batfam-meets-jl fics for the sole reason I hate how glazed and almost deified Bruce & the batfam is.

It's the same reason I don't like Danny Phantom-meets-DC because everytime one party gets glazed to hell and back. But like ESPECIALLY with batfam fics like what do you mean Bruce can ban Hal from Gotham due to a non-existent "No metas in Gotham" rule, AND somehow manages to hold back an alien invasion from Gotham almost singlehandedly with the help of almost always just the Robin's, Batgirls, and maybe, MAYBE Batwoman & Signal if they're mentiond.

Mind you, I especially hate that stupid rule. Because A) it has no basis in canon and B) its so fucking stupid. Because people unwittingly make Bruce look like a fucking bigot/hypocrite in their fics when they have it.

A bigot, because considering how often he kicks the other supers out just for visiting (even if they're in civvies), this implies he kicks out civilians too (or in some way stops them from coming) for something outside of their control à la marvel mutants. Imagine little old Molly Smith from Metropolis, wanting to go to Gotham U for their medical program & scholarship. Only to get the heart attack of her life because Batman shows up, saying she can't come in because it just so happens she has the meta ability to be 3% extra lucky on the 3rd Tuesday of every month or something.

And a hypocrite because he stops people like Flash or Superman from even ENTERING Gotham but doesn't do shit about Poison Ivy or any of the other.

It's stupid in fics where it's "courtesy" to tell batman they'll be stopping in gotham for whatever reason because it's "His" city. What do you mean this grown man throws a temper tantrum just because another hero wants to VISIT. Not even talking mentioning the times they come because they want to HELP people. I don't care if they don't "know his city" make them save civilians or something then but kicking them out is just dumb.

But also like, they always, ALWAYS dumb down the other characters to prop them up as well. Like I saw someone mentioned once that Red Hood would be a better marksman then Oliver Queen. JASON TODD. A BETTER MARKSMAN. THAN THE GREEN ARROW.

Or they'll have Bruce correct them on some obscure piece of their expertise (like I once read a fic where Bruce corrected ZATANNA??? about something magic related??????). If he is so good at everything why bother with a team at all. "he can't be everywhere" cloning is viable and almost certainly easily accessible to Billionare Bruce Wayne.

The worst is always when they absolutely idiot-fy the other JL members. They make basically everyone just flat out incompetent (most notably Oliver & Hal just become jokes but the others still get it too) so that the batfam all look like geniuses in comparison and that is just. So frustrating.