Thread of experts saying that endogenic and nondisordered systems are valid: A repost.
originally posted by @/jsheaforrest on Twitter, Oct 3 2023. This is a repost so that others can view it if they do not have Twitter.
First off, we have the Plurality chapter of the book Transgender Mental Health by Dr. Eric Yarbrough, Distinguished Fellow of the American Psychiatric, published by the APA in 2018 :
Important excerpts from that chapter:
"Being plural, or having two or more people existing in one body or space, is just one part of the diagnosis of dissociative identity disorder. Many people who are plural do not experience distress from the existence of others within themselves."
Since distress/dysfunction are essential for a diagnosis of dissociative identity disorder, the implication here is that there's plurals who don't have DID.
"However, although dissociative identity disorder and plurality are frequently associated with trauma, there are those who are plural and report no history of trauma. The case presentation in this chapter describes someone with severe trauma, but this is not a definitive or universal reason for the existence of plurality."
Next we have "Dissociation in Trauma: A New Definition and Comparison with Previous Formulations," published in the Journal of Trauma and Dissociation by Dr's Nijenhuis and Van Der Hart, two of the authors of the theory of structural dissociation.
The key part of this section is at the beginning where it says,
"Our definition of dissociation pertains to a division of the personality in the context of trauma. We are aware that this division may also occur in hypnosis and mediumship, that several other definitions of dissociation also address these other contexts, and that there are some indications that dissociation in these other contexts is also best understood as a division of personality."
Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21667387/
Sci-hub link: https://sci-hub.usualwant.com/10.1080/15299732.2011.570592
Next we have the ICD-11, a diagnostic manual written by the World Health Organization, with the latest edition being from spring of 2022. In its entry on DID, it uses "distinct personality states" to refer to what it also calls "dissociative identities."
In the DID entry's Boundaries With Normality section, it says the following:
"The presence of two or more distinct personality states does not always indicate the presence of a mental disorder. In certain circumstances (e.g., as experienced by ‘mediums’ or other culturally accepted spiritual practitioners) the presence of multiple personality states is not experienced as aversive and is not associated with impairment in functioning. A diagnosis of Dissociative Identity Disorder should not be assigned in these cases."
Note that the text says "eg" meaning "for example", therefore it is not saying that it is ONLY those.
Next is the DSM-V-TR, which also came out in spring of 2022. In the differential diagnosis section of the PTSD entry, it says the following:
"Dissociative disorders. Dissociative amnesia, dissociative identity disorder, and depersonalization-derealization disorder may or may not be preceded by exposure to a traumatic event or may or may not have co-occurring PTSD symptoms. When full PTSD criteria are also met, however, the PTSD “with dissociative symptoms” subtype should be considered."
Lastly, we have an interview w/ Dr Richard Loewenstein, who is lead editor of the DSM's section on dissociative disorders, has written over 100 papers mostly on trauma and dissociation and been referenced in 100s more, and used to run a trauma and dissociative disorders center.
In an interview with radio journalist Laura Klivens, talking about our system and having been told our origins, he said what's on the screenshot below.
Source: https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/49hr6k (the link is broken, it redirects to Spotify, all gimlet media links do. If I find the episode i'll put it here.)
"RICHARD: What you’re describing is much more somebody who is emitting symptoms consistent with Dissociative Identity Disorder and, um, you know, without interviewing her, um, I would wonder if that’s … what’s occurring and this is--creates a kind of, um, way that she can experience herself without distress. But again, if she is not distressed, by definition it’s not a disorder."
Continuing on in that episode, Laura says the following:"
"LAURA: I didn’t just talk to Lowenstein, I also talked to four other mental health professionals--both psychiatrists and psychologists--from these really reputable institutions. And they echoed what Lowenstein said. They said if there’s not distress, it’s not a mental illness--it just doesn’t fit any of the DSM definitions."
So. All these sources, from the American Psychiatric Association, World Health Organization, the two major diagnostic manuals used worldwide, and experts who study and treat DID/OSDD-1.
They all support the idea of nondisordered and endogenic systems. We've yet to see a single source from any major institution or expert saying that endogenic and nondisordered systems are impossible. Thank you for reading.
This is the end of the original thread. The thread picks up again on Jan 8, 2024.
New addition: a recent study (September 12, 2023) specifically on endogenic and nondisordered plurality.
source: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/cpp.2910
"Dissociative identity disorder and depersonalization–derealization have attracted research and clinical interest, facilitating greater understanding. However, little is known about the experience of multiplicity of self outside of traumagenic or illness constructs. Consequently, this systematic review explored how people identifying as having multiple selves conceptualize their experiences and identity."
It picks up once again, on Jan 17, 2024.
Another addition, from an article on Psychology Today's website published in September of 2021.
source: https://psychologytoday.com/us/conditions/dissociative-identity-disorder-multiple-personality-disorder
Key points: "Why some people develop dissociative identity disorder is not entirely understood...Several studies suggest that DID is more common among close biological relatives of persons who also have the disorder than in the general population."
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