i will never forgive the internet for making the phrase “fiction affects reality” inherently suspicious because like fiction absolutely does affect reality in the sense that the themes and messages of media can challenge or affirm people’s biases, it can impact one’s ideology, so much of fiction is commentary on real social issues
and yet! everyone who uses the phrase fiction affects reality is using it as a pro-censorship argument and i simply do not fuck with that
What people used to mean:
"When all popular media around us, from our childhood until we die of old age, largely show a one-sided and deeply problematic and incorrect narrative about how they world is and what we should be like as humans to be worthy of love and acceptance or even survival, that kind of over-exposure can (and does) affect our beliefs about ourselves and others in ways that are harmful."
What people in fandom use it to mean now:
"If you read about someone committing rape, you'll start to think that rape is good and okay and want to do it in real life".
I love the phantasm fireball scene in witch hat atelier because it explicitly states such a strong opinion that I think a Lot of people would disagree with. shirahama looks at you the audience and says "the artist bears responsibility for what they put into the world." I know of so many artists that would vehemently deny this responsibility, and I think it's really impressive she expressed it at such face value to an audience of many many artists
I'm thinking abt this again because I just saw an account with a witch hat pfp and had "shotacon" in their pinned. did you guys really not read the fucking manga
#I generally find this discourse dumb but for the record I REALLY do not like self proclaimed proship people.#you probably don't wanna be following me. heads up
I mean, yeah, that's one message from the manga, but there is also an incredibly powerful anti-censorship message in WHA. A central theme is that using state violence to enforce censorship and supress unwanted and "immoral" material is incredibly dangerous and near impossible to do without harming a lot of innocent people in the process.
WHA absolutely tells us that we are responsible for what we put into the world and that there are severe downsides to a world where certain kinds of easily abused knowledge is available to everyone. But it definitely also tells us that persecuting people for consuming materials or creating things deemed immoral is a slippery slope that can and often does breed danger and violent oppression.
I'm too old to identify with any of these shipping terms, but when I look up the meaning of pro-ship, pretty much every serious source seems to define it as an ideology that opposes censorship and harrassment of people based on the fictional ships they create or consume content about.
I think that's an ideology that is entirely compatible with reading and understanding the core message of WHA, where perhaps the single biggest source of ethical conflict is the inherent violence of censorship vs the danger of libertarian style free-for-alls.
You know, for me, the thing that really proves Olly's deep seated love and devotion towards Quifrey isn't the fact that he always forgives him (i think most people would, given the circumstance). Rather, it's the fact that he is always paying such close attention to Quifrey that he keeps figuring out all Quifrey's deepest and darkest secrets over and over, despite the immense effort put into hiding it.
We talk a lot about how much Quifrey loves Olly (which he undoubtably does), but for me, there is such deep, romantic yearning in the fact that while Quifrey's attention is on many things (the brimhats, his students, his goals); Olly's attention is mostly on Quifrey. From the time they were kids, Quifrey had a goal and a purpose, he was always walking towards something. Olly, on the other hand, was always walking towards Quifrey - both emotionally and physically.
He is so beautiful and I can't wait for him to start his "be gay, do crime"-era that Shirahama is so clearly setting up for him. I just know he's about to fuck some shit up (as he should)!
It's very funny to me that anyone allowed Olruggio, also known as the the ultimate wifeguy and grand master of the "happy wife, happy life" ideology, to become Quifrey's watchful eye. As if that man has ever, in his entire life, been able to deny Quifrey anything.
Stop saying save olruggio ‼️‼️‼️ he is right where he wants to be 🙂↕️ A beautiful man doing all his cooking and cleaning and childcare? Gets to nap for like 30 hrs straight and no one says a thing? And all he has to do is get his memory wiped every once in a while per the blood contract that he drafted? And have I mentioned a beautiful man??? He's fine don't worry abt him
One of my favourite parts of Quifrey as a character is that he originally appears like a soft spoken and gentle teacher archetype, but you very quickly realize that he is actually a deeply emotional man who is always three seconds away from having a loud, dramatic public break down. His emotional regulation is actually quite bad, and he's incredibly impulsive (this is one of the ways in which he is similar to Coco, imo).
I wish Black Butler fandom would move on from the constant back and forth about whether Sebastian and Ciel's relationship is meant to be erotic/suggestive, or whether it's meant to be seen as predatory, because the answer is obviously both.
Yana Toboso absolutely draws Ciel as sexy, and Sebastian and Ciel together in ways that are obviously intended to have erotic undertones (that's true whether or not it personally turns you on or creeps you out). She also frequently portrays Sebastian as a predatory figure, and Sebastian and Ciel's relationship as exploitative and twisted.
The real question worth asking isn't whether Sebastian & Ciel's relationship is suggestive or predatory (again: obviously both), but rather what this erotic subtext is meant to convey and what role it plays in the story. Is it simply a case of (inappropriate) fanservice involving a child? Is it the authors sexual preferences shining through? Or is it a Nabokov's Lolita situation, where the sexualization of the child character is a purposful literary device meant to force the reader to feel complicit? That's the real discussion people should be having, imo.
Why on earth is everyone suddenly saying this new drawing of Sebastian is his "true form"? I can't see a single hint or suggestion in the chapter itself that this would be a "true form", rather than just how he appeared to this one specific man that one specific night (if it even was Sebastian at all).
Like, genuinly, please explain to me what I missed for literally everyone in the fandom to be confidently stating that this is a reveal of his "true form"?
it just bugs me that we had this like 40 page chapter negotiating the contract but we don’t know why ciel thinks demons eat souls to begin with. Who was the first person to tell him? It wasn’t sebastian because he never told him that.
I did get an answer to this eventually, lol. Yana used a play on words. In the Japanese version, “I receive your soul” is itadakimasu, what is said like a blessing before meals.
So it is a logical on Ciel’s part for him to assume Sebastian used it as a euphemism for eating his soul.
In my personal opinion, however, that almost seems deceptive on Sebastian or Yana’s part, given it’s only implied through a common phrase as opposed to a literal statement after he has promised never to lie to Ciel.
"Itadakimasu" used in this context is definitely vague, but later in the same chapter Ciel explitely asks Sebastian what happens to a soul that is eaten ("食われる") by him, and Sebastian responds that it simply dissapears. I would say this is a pretty solid confirmation that demons eat souls, given that Sebastian cannot lie. That said, I would say it is only a confirmation that demons can and do eat souls, and not that this is what he plans to do to Ciels soul specifically.
semantics (which was the theme for these chapters, so maybe it’s forgivable) but I’ll point out that Sebastian actually answered “nothing.” and then elaborates that they just disappear without awaiting judgment (meaning they aren’t collected by reapers). when Ciel asked Sebastian if he was seriously going to eat him just then, his answer was “no, no”— that kinda resembles the “nothing” answer to me, if abstractly.
What I was so baffled by in the OP was that we don’t know why Ciel thinks demons eat souls. The way Sebastian phrased it here gives some indication but it’s not clear to me still, come to think of it Sullivan only said you’ll be “cursed” if you summon a devil, to which Sebastian disagrees because demons are fickle, meaning that Sebastian was under no obligation to show up nor propose a contract.
if you’re fluent then I have a request :-) In 125 Othello says people who summon devils usually just wish for immediate gratification and then “poof! They’re done”. In chapter 12, William says that demons leech off of humans to live like parasites (paraphrased) and that read to me like they feed off of them while they’re still living. In chapter 28, Sebastian tries to make a deal with William that I really scrutinized to the point it turned into it’s own post . Also made a post recently about how it came up in 115, because it really bugged me. If you’re interested, maybe you can check the raws for all those and see if you catch anything that you wouldn’t from reading it in English.
What ‘eating’ entails for a demon and why they even need to eat are nebulous. The anime made it a key component to the story so we can understand the motivations, but we’ve yet to really have any of the covenant’s mechanics established to us in the manga. Sebastian shows his seal to William to prove that he’s collared, but the reapers ultimately treat him like being contracted doesn’t matter and he can still steal souls. He can also (apparently) end the contract whenever he wants and just needs to justify it to himself. But if he doesn’t even need a contract to devour souls, why enter one? “Because it tastes better” is only a theory, on Yana and Sebastian’s part.
My theory is that if demons don’t eat souls (or “eating” is some euphemism or something) othello and undertaker are probably the only ones to know, given their age. The reapers know that the records get mucked up, but not what exactly happens to the souls. I think it’s strange that no human character has talked about demons eating souls (not even vladis and the voices with him yet) because that would at least go to show us that it’s a common knowledge superstition in the kuro universe— because it certainly isn’t biblical.
oh! Last minute edit. I forgot to add, when Ciel made an ‘alluring’ face in the lady lessons CD, Sebastian took a picture and says a variation of Itadakimasu. Is that just a common way to say you got the shot?
Damn, your control over the lore of this show is mighty impressive! And very interesting! I need to get more familiar with the canon, haha.
As for my language proficiency, it's decent, but I'm not sure where to place it. When I lived in Japan I was at a level where I was allowed to take university classes taught in japanese, however, that was over 15 years ago and I've definitely gooten rusty since then. So if Yana Toboso relies heavily on, like, double meanings and subtle nuances or using a lot of complicated kanji, I'm not confident that I'd be able to pick that up.
Still, I can certainly give it my best shot, so here it goes:
Othello saying "Poof! They're done":
This is almost certainly a somewhat creative translation of Othello ending his first sentence with "owari!" (lit: end). Technically, the direct translation would be to end the sentence in english by going "the end!" (especially because "owari" is also used to signal the end of stories and fairytales, just like the english phrase "the end").
You kind of have to rely on context, because there is no specified subject, but I'd say it's pretty clear that the meaning is not that the contractors are "done" in the sense of being dead, but rather that Othello thinks most contractors are dull, because their goals are short-sighted and their stories/contracts are completed quickly (unlike the contrastors that he does like, which he goes on to talk about right after)
In terms of making the meaning most clear, I think I would have translated it into something like this: "Well, among the kind of people who summon demons, there are a lot of guys who shortsightedely seek self-fullfilment and that's it!/and then they're done, just like that!".
Chapter 12: William
William says that demons "live by paratizing" (寄生して生きている). So, yeah, that implies something ongoing. But also, the way it's phrased, I'd say it doesn't nescassarily have to be literal in the sense of actual devouring/leeching, nor does it nescassarily have to be about actual survival (like, you could probably also use it for someone that was dependent on exploiting others to get by in life). My gut feeling is that he's using it more literally, but it's not entirely clear, in my opinion.
A quick read of the chapter 115 pages you already re-translated:
I don't really have any notes to add there. I largely agree with your interpretation. Ciel is certainly not asking Sebastian directly whether it's true or not that the contractors are in his stomach. In fact, my read is that Ciel's little "to" at the end is nothing more than an expression of uncertainty over something you've been told, rather than being a question that requires a response. And Sebastian definitely doesn't confirm or deny whether if it's true that he's eaten them. In fact, now that you've pointed it out, I'd say his respons is down right suspicious. It feels a deflection.
Lastly about the CD and itadakimasu:
The thing about "Itadakimasu" is that it's used before eating and as a verb for consuming food and drink, but if you're speaking politely in japanese, "itadakimasu" can also just mean to recieve or take something. In this context, there is no food related implications, it reads more along the lines of Sebastian kind of cheekily saying that the he "(humbly) recieved" (ie kept/took) the last picture.
Hope that make sense/is helpful, if not, feel free to ask. This is a great reason to freshen up my rusty japanese anyways, so. :P
yes, from what I’ve been told, Sebastian uses rare/archaic kanji when speaking though since it’s for general audiences everything has furigana. However, Yana likes to use the furigana to spell out different words often, too. Recently she’s been doing it a lot and just spelling out the English version of the word in katakana, for whatever reason. back on chapter 218’s cover I originally rendered a word as “banquet” as per my friend’s direction, just for the latest chapter to use the furigana to spell “Dinner” for the same word.
I think there’s probably a couple of connections she might be trying to reveal to the audience now, such as knight (the chess piece, “horsemen” in Japan), knight (as in the ones in shining armor), and night all being pronounced identically in English. Another is replacing “vengeance” with “revenge” (English loanword), as part of this ongoing theme. It seems like the double speak gets lost in translation occasionally. Whenever sebastian refers to Ciel as his master, the furigana spells “my lord”— except this one time, which both the scanlation and official version opted to render as a term of endearment… the reason is lost on me, since I don’t know anything about Japanese beyond what I get told.
other instances of her using furigana to spell different words are like this:
This one was interesting to me too since I don’t understand the point of doing this in his own internal dialogue? (first image: the kanji says “bocchan”. Second image: the kanji says “my contractor” and the furigana reads “bocchan”), my working theory is that he has to justify his disobedience according to his contractual obligations first and foremost, even to himself. I don’t think we have enough insight to tell whether that’s Sebastian’s neurosis or a legitimate, psychically retraining rule he’s bound to abide by. I think it may be a bit of both, like he draws power from loyalty to the contract but he may not be aware of it working through the power of faith.
full disclosure, I don’t speak with any authority and my more fluffy way of looking at things is generally against the fandoms accepted consensus. Sometimes just to disagree and other times because I don’t see the manga as so bleak haha
On the subject of eating, there’s a question in the character guide that sebastian may be giving an interesting answer to…
質問 10
契約する人間に求める資質や能力は ありますか?
Do you require any qualities or abilities in the human you make a contract with?
セバスチャンナー私の欲望を満足さ せてくれる方であれば、どなたでも。Anyone who satisfies my desires.
私にとっては、退屈こそが敵。For me, boredom is the enemy. そうい う意味では、お屋敷での暮らしは退 屈しませんね。In that sense, life at the manor is not boring. 次から次へと問 題を起こす者が おりますので。There are those who cause problems one after another.
couldn’t satisfy my desires also mean satiated my appetite/cravings?
Oh, I definitely have some thoughts on some of these!
On the first one, I'd wager that it's translated into "my dear master" because Sebastian uses "goshujin-sama", which does technically just mean master, but is also the commonly used term that you'll hear when people want to say "master" in sexy/flirty/"loving" ways (such as in a bdsm-setting or at a maid cafe). It can also technically be used to refer to someone's husband. So it's a word that does have some possible sweeter/more suggestive connotations compared to "bouchan" or "my lord".
That said, it is also a proper way to just say master, so I wouldn't assume Sebastian is using it with those implications (nescassarily), but that would still be my guess for why they turned it into an endearment in english. As for the other examples of using furigana in alternative ways, my guess is as good as yours.
And, yeah, I'd say you could technically also translate "satifisfy my desires" with something like "satifisfy my cravings", but I'm not sure how much of a eating-connotation that has. I'm not familiar enough with it's use.
As for the post you tagged me in; I agree with you that Sebastian is not saying the information is wrong or that there is nothing correct about what was said. Sebastians point seems to be that the guy isn't really a fortune teller because he is cheating (gathering info beforehand & "hotreading"). Therefore it's meaningless to brag about his divinitation being spot on. In my opinion, he's not really adressing whether the information was correct or not, but rather whether it was a real divinitation.
Ngl, this is all very interesting. The eating souls part especially does seem a lot more vague than I initially thought. Makes me real curious about where she's going with it! Maybe it'll turn into a role-reversal type of thing (ie Ciel serves Sebastian after death)? Do you have any theories?
it just bugs me that we had this like 40 page chapter negotiating the contract but we don’t know why ciel thinks demons eat souls to begin with. Who was the first person to tell him? It wasn’t sebastian because he never told him that.
I did get an answer to this eventually, lol. Yana used a play on words. In the Japanese version, “I receive your soul” is itadakimasu, what is said like a blessing before meals.
So it is a logical on Ciel’s part for him to assume Sebastian used it as a euphemism for eating his soul.
In my personal opinion, however, that almost seems deceptive on Sebastian or Yana’s part, given it’s only implied through a common phrase as opposed to a literal statement after he has promised never to lie to Ciel.
"Itadakimasu" used in this context is definitely vague, but later in the same chapter Ciel explitely asks Sebastian what happens to a soul that is eaten ("食われる") by him, and Sebastian responds that it simply dissapears. I would say this is a pretty solid confirmation that demons eat souls, given that Sebastian cannot lie. That said, I would say it is only a confirmation that demons can and do eat souls, and not that this is what he plans to do to Ciels soul specifically.
semantics (which was the theme for these chapters, so maybe it’s forgivable) but I’ll point out that Sebastian actually answered “nothing.” and then elaborates that they just disappear without awaiting judgment (meaning they aren’t collected by reapers). when Ciel asked Sebastian if he was seriously going to eat him just then, his answer was “no, no”— that kinda resembles the “nothing” answer to me, if abstractly.
What I was so baffled by in the OP was that we don’t know why Ciel thinks demons eat souls. The way Sebastian phrased it here gives some indication but it’s not clear to me still, come to think of it Sullivan only said you’ll be “cursed” if you summon a devil, to which Sebastian disagrees because demons are fickle, meaning that Sebastian was under no obligation to show up nor propose a contract.
if you’re fluent then I have a request :-) In 125 Othello says people who summon devils usually just wish for immediate gratification and then “poof! They’re done”. In chapter 12, William says that demons leech off of humans to live like parasites (paraphrased) and that read to me like they feed off of them while they’re still living. In chapter 28, Sebastian tries to make a deal with William that I really scrutinized to the point it turned into it’s own post . Also made a post recently about how it came up in 115, because it really bugged me. If you’re interested, maybe you can check the raws for all those and see if you catch anything that you wouldn’t from reading it in English.
What ‘eating’ entails for a demon and why they even need to eat are nebulous. The anime made it a key component to the story so we can understand the motivations, but we’ve yet to really have any of the covenant’s mechanics established to us in the manga. Sebastian shows his seal to William to prove that he’s collared, but the reapers ultimately treat him like being contracted doesn’t matter and he can still steal souls. He can also (apparently) end the contract whenever he wants and just needs to justify it to himself. But if he doesn’t even need a contract to devour souls, why enter one? “Because it tastes better” is only a theory, on Yana and Sebastian’s part.
My theory is that if demons don’t eat souls (or “eating” is some euphemism or something) othello and undertaker are probably the only ones to know, given their age. The reapers know that the records get mucked up, but not what exactly happens to the souls. I think it’s strange that no human character has talked about demons eating souls (not even vladis and the voices with him yet) because that would at least go to show us that it’s a common knowledge superstition in the kuro universe— because it certainly isn’t biblical.
oh! Last minute edit. I forgot to add, when Ciel made an ‘alluring’ face in the lady lessons CD, Sebastian took a picture and says a variation of Itadakimasu. Is that just a common way to say you got the shot?
Damn, your control over the lore of this show is mighty impressive! And very interesting! I need to get more familiar with the canon, haha.
As for my language proficiency, it's decent, but I'm not sure where to place it. When I lived in Japan I was at a level where I was allowed to take university classes taught in japanese, however, that was over 15 years ago and I've definitely gooten rusty since then. So if Yana Toboso relies heavily on, like, double meanings and subtle nuances or using a lot of complicated kanji, I'm not confident that I'd be able to pick that up.
Still, I can certainly give it my best shot, so here it goes:
Othello saying "Poof! They're done":
This is almost certainly a somewhat creative translation of Othello ending his first sentence with "owari!" (lit: end). Technically, the direct translation would be to end the sentence in english by going "the end!" (especially because "owari" is also used to signal the end of stories and fairytales, just like the english phrase "the end").
You kind of have to rely on context, because there is no specified subject, but I'd say it's pretty clear that the meaning is not that the contractors are "done" in the sense of being dead, but rather that Othello thinks most contractors are dull, because their goals are short-sighted and their stories/contracts are completed quickly (unlike the contrastors that he does like, which he goes on to talk about right after)
In terms of making the meaning most clear, I think I would have translated it into something like this: "Well, among the kind of people who summon demons, there are a lot of guys who shortsightedely seek self-fullfilment and that's it!/and then they're done, just like that!".
Chapter 12: William
William says that demons "live by paratizing" (寄生して生きている). So, yeah, that implies something ongoing. But also, the way it's phrased, I'd say it doesn't nescassarily have to be literal in the sense of actual devouring/leeching, nor does it nescassarily have to be about actual survival (like, you could probably also use it for someone that was dependent on exploiting others to get by in life). My gut feeling is that he's using it more literally, but it's not entirely clear, in my opinion.
A quick read of the chapter 115 pages you already re-translated:
I don't really have any notes to add there. I largely agree with your interpretation. Ciel is certainly not asking Sebastian directly whether it's true or not that the contractors are in his stomach. In fact, my read is that Ciel's little "to" at the end is nothing more than an expression of uncertainty over something you've been told, rather than being a question that requires a response. And Sebastian definitely doesn't confirm or deny whether if it's true that he's eaten them. In fact, now that you've pointed it out, I'd say his respons is down right suspicious. It feels a deflection.
Lastly about the CD and itadakimasu:
The thing about "Itadakimasu" is that it's used before eating and as a verb for consuming food and drink, but if you're speaking politely in japanese, "itadakimasu" can also just mean to recieve or take something. In this context, there is no food related implications, it reads more along the lines of Sebastian kind of cheekily saying that the he "(humbly) recieved" (ie kept/took) the last picture.
Hope that make sense/is helpful, if not, feel free to ask. This is a great reason to freshen up my rusty japanese anyways, so. :P
it just bugs me that we had this like 40 page chapter negotiating the contract but we don’t know why ciel thinks demons eat souls to begin with. Who was the first person to tell him? It wasn’t sebastian because he never told him that.
I did get an answer to this eventually, lol. Yana used a play on words. In the Japanese version, “I receive your soul” is itadakimasu, what is said like a blessing before meals.
So it is a logical on Ciel’s part for him to assume Sebastian used it as a euphemism for eating his soul.
In my personal opinion, however, that almost seems deceptive on Sebastian or Yana’s part, given it’s only implied through a common phrase as opposed to a literal statement after he has promised never to lie to Ciel.
"Itadakimasu" used in this context is definitely vague, but later in the same chapter Ciel explitely asks Sebastian what happens to a soul that is eaten ("食われる") by him, and Sebastian responds that it simply dissapears. I would say this is a pretty solid confirmation that demons eat souls, given that Sebastian cannot lie. That said, I would say it is only a confirmation that demons can and do eat souls, and not that this is what he plans to do to Ciels soul specifically.
The most bizarre thing I've experienced in terms of hypocritical puritan moral values in any fandom has to be the way people talk about Blitz "having" to fuck Stolas to keep the Grimoire.
I actually, genuinly, cannot believe that some of ya'll clutch your pearls because a dude that Blitz full on robbed (and ravished!) so he could capitalize on literal murder was like "im gonna need that thing you stole back, but we did have great sex, so i guess i'll let you borrow it as long as we can hook up sometimes".
Not only is that a perfectly acceptable ask; it is actually an unbeliavably gracious response to having someone break into your home, fuck you, brag about it to your wife and steal your most prized possesion. Blitz is my favourite character by a long shot, but he is not any kind of victim for participating in some occasional transactional sex.
Yeah, totally agree, and just to add to that real quick: Blitz "needs" that book because he wants to be the CEO of a company that kills people for money. Being an assasin is not a human right or a human need, nor is it an occupation that is compatible with any kind of leftist praxis. Capitalizing on murder is about as far away from anti-capitalist ideals as it is possible to get.
(Obviously Helluva isn't meant to be a serious political commentary on anything, but if we're gonna treat it is as such, then people need to start getting the fundementals correct first.)
The most bizarre thing I've experienced in terms of hypocritical puritan moral values in any fandom has to be the way people talk about Blitz "having" to fuck Stolas to keep the Grimoire.
I actually, genuinly, cannot believe that some of ya'll clutch your pearls because a dude that Blitz full on robbed (and ravished!) so he could capitalize on literal murder was like "im gonna need that thing you stole back, but we did have great sex, so i guess i'll let you borrow it as long as we can hook up sometimes".
Not only is that a perfectly acceptable ask; it is actually an unbeliavably gracious response to having someone break into your home, fuck you, brag about it to your wife and steal your most prized possesion. Blitz is my favourite character by a long shot, but he is not any kind of victim for participating in some occasional transactional sex.
