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“Phoenix” by WaterTower is now available for streaming on spotify. Timelapse and art made by @caeyfro Check it out! #newmusic #music #edm #vaporwave #hiphop #cincinnati #birds #timelapse #chill
Proud to see this
When did it become archetypal of rogues to dual wield? Most media involves rogues dual wielding and I am quite puzzled. I remember when rogues where more “Robin Hood meets Long John Silver” and dual wield was for the ninja enthusiasts mostly.
That’s a very good question!
I’m don’t know about media in general (so if anyone wants to chime in, go ahead!), but I can tell you when it became a trope in D&D.
In 3rd Edition, when the Thief was renamed to Rogue, and the Backstab ability renamed to Sneak Attack, there was also a very important change in the rules: you could now sneak attack more than once per round, whereas backstab only worked for your first attack. This made multiple attacks per round a VERY desirable thing for rogues, and Two-Weapon Fighting was their standard melee choice.
So to the extend that D&D affects other media (there were a lot of games based on it), dual wielding stopped being the expertise of Drizzt rangers and ninjas only, and started becoming synonymous with roguish types in general.
Interestingly, it was less often rapier and dagger (a combo extensively used in real life), and more often twin weapons: two daggers, or two kukris , combos that don’t have that much of a historical counterpart.
I think that was primarily for optimisation. Weapon feats (such as Weapon Focus, which everyone despised, or Improved Critical, which was very popular) often applied to only one weapon, so it was better for dual wielders to take two identical weapons and slash away.
And that’s how we ended up with this.
Dual wield is a divine effect.
The way I heard it, was this thief got into a desperate situation and needed to kill a god.
No magical weapons, no special anything really. No chance at all.
Simply impossible.
However, intimidating the god was only nigh impossible.
Technically the disadvantages were so bad that any failure would have caused the thief, thier family, all their ancestors, much of their race, the majority of the planet to have never existed.
This was all done using alternate rules which should be a warning to others.
Many rolls later a nigh impossible critical was the result.
There may have been some jiggery pokery with the dice.
The god did not die since this was impossible.
The god believes that they are dead.
The belief of a god is what powers the ability for all of time.
Another god could spend enternity to reverse it, but the general response so far has been "Meh, so, that happened"
The ability is activated by only one thing.
Faith in ones self.
by Zaydos
A minor objection: while the Fritz Leiber’s Gray Mouser is certainly the direct inspiration of D&D’s Thief class (it wasn’t renamed “Rogue” until the 3rd Edition), both characters have a much earlier literary prototype in Lord Dunsany’s Nuth.
“Nobody ever catches Nuth”, heh.
…But I have questions.
First, which “both characters” does Nuth precede, the Gray Mouser and who else? Conan? Erlic?? Fafhrd???
Second, what exactly differentiates… any hero of a supernatural adventure story from a Player Character™? Does it need to be a series of novels or short stories? (Out goes Nuth, then.) Does it need to be written by an eponymous author? In English?
Because here, I got a whole freaking gang of Player Characters (yes, they’re mostly rogues) preceding ALL of the above:
Do they get disqualified because it’s folk tales? I don’t think they should…
Now mythic heroes are another animal altogether, and very distinct in tone. I wouldn’t count these. (Although I was tempted to just throw Odysseus in your face and close the matter. :p) And okay, not ALL folk tales read like the adventures of a bunch of Player Characters set in a Campaign World. But many of them do, very much so, and I think we should give the devil (and the djinn) their due.
Dnd is Tolkien. Orignal Lawful/Netrual/Chaotic which were a substitute for the unversal good in Tolkien, also neutral very Tolkien. Original races human, dwarf, elf, halfing (avoiding copyright). The original classes were fighting-man, Magic-user, cleric. Ok cleric, not very Tolkien, but soon after ranger and thief. Orcs, Tolkien.
DnD did add much over the years but the root is Tolkien. DnD key was not originality but playability.
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This is Ghald, sahuagin assassin from Princes of the Apocalypse. He has this:
Garrote. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one Medium or Small creature against which Ghald has advantage on the attack roll. Hit: 9 (2d4 + 4) bludgeoning damage, and the target is grappled (escape DC 15). Until the grapple ends, the target can’t breathe, and Ghald has advantage on attack rolls against it.
Ghald is a CR7 creature, with STR 19 and DEX 17. He must have a +3 proficiency bonus, so I’m guessing the garrote does 2d4 + Str damage, and has a DC of 8 + proficiency bonus + Str modifier. Right?
Nice. I’m just not sure if it is (or should be) a finesse weapon. (It doesn’t matter for Ghald because his Str is higher).
Note he’s Large and his short swords do 2d6 rather than 1d6 damage, so I think a human sized garrote would only do 1d4.
Oh, also this is really close to what a PC can do with the Tavern Brawler feat (it uses any unarmed/improv weapon and doesn’t require advantage, but requires a bonus action and a grapple check, and doesn’t provide advantage or cause choking)
Since monsters normally don’t have to make grapple checks to start, and don’t normally bother with bonus actions, I think I would add those in.
So, perhaps a fair feat or replacement class feature for assassin:
Garrote Master
The character has learned how to strangle with a special weapon called a garrote, gaining proficiency with the weapon and ability to make a special choking atttack with it.
Garrote - exotic weapon, 1d4 + str damage, only useable with advantage against the target, requires two hands
Choking attack - if you score a hit with the garrote against a target with a throat, as a bonus action you may make a grapple check against the target you just hit. On a success you begin to strangle the target. The target is grappled, and until the grapple ends the target cannot breath and you have advantage against the target. This grapple requires both hands holding the garrote; using either hand for something else (like attacking with another weapon) or using the garrote against a target other than the one being strangled immediately causes the grapple to end.
If a feat, maybe also add +1 str (again like tavern brawler)? There may be some sort of player shenanigans you could do with this, but there ARE other ways to gain advantage regularly against a target, so I wouldn’t be too worried.
Great trick for an NPC - I’d use it just like Ghald (no extra action, no extra grapple check, as is usual with monsters that can grapple). Probably excellent at keeping a pesky wizard from casting most spells while they die…
Oh, that’s very cool. (And I fixed the weapon dmg, thanks!)
Although, feats are a very important and VERY limited resource now, and I’m a bit iffy about needing a feat for it - if that’s what you had in mind. Like, if the players looted the garrote from a medium-sized NPC, wouldn’t you let them use it at all without the feat? Or yes, but with different rules, and obviously no proficiency bonus?
On one hand, I get it, the garrote is a category of its own, you shouldn’t be proficient in it just like that. On the other hand, with 5e’s total lack of support for exotic weapons, are we gonna have to homebrew a whole feat every time we introduce a cool gadget? :P
No mention of passive intimidation?
Must get annoying.
Ghald: *walks down crowed street*
Every tenth villager: Please don't kill me!
Ghald: *rolls eyes*
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At first I thought this was just some other knife.
But then I realized - it’s a switch blade
This reminds me of
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I love that my Mother, while we were living in Missouri so my parents could go to grad school, got the Red box Dungeons and Dragons basic set for us as a Christmas gift. Because she thought we were being too competitive, and in this game we were all on the same side. Meanwhile, back in Montana, one of the local stores briefly sold D&D products, until the Christian fearful boycotted them until they stopped. I’m so glad my parents were indigenous traditionalists and not Christians. Far more open minded
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