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Should the Confederate Flag Come Down

Warning: Lot’s of reading ahead but it’s important!

In case you are unaware, or not American, since the massacre at Mother Emanuel AME church on Wednesday, June 17th, 2015 where nine people were killed, one of the political talk points is about the Confederate Flag that stands on State Capitol Grounds in South Carolina, once flying above the state House. Of all the flags on Capitol Grounds, it was the only flag not flown at half mast after the deaths of those nine people, killed by a white supremacist 21 year old. That 21 year old idolized that flag and the Old South, now sits in a jail cell awaiting trial for those heartless cruel executions, admitting to his crimes. Some people are angry that the media has drawn attention to the Confederate Flag and many South Carolinian natives (especially whites) have said that the flag shows southern heritage. One of the local news stations in my area WMBF News of Myrtle Beach South Carolina, ran a story about how 1,000 people descended on Columbia in order to petition for the flag to be brought down. I had already responded to an Al Jezeera Article with the following statement on my views as to whether it should be left up or down:

Gracie Williams: As a South Carolinian, this flag is part of my heritage. But it is a bad part of my heritage that we should not be waving around. German people, aren't waving the swastika around proudly. Why do southerners wave this flag around like something to be proud of? Both are symbols of hatred and oppression. You can argue it means states rights to me all day long. Sure, maybe it was states rights but it was the right to keep people in human bondage. It's also worth noting the flag wasn't raised on South Carolina's capital grounds until the sixties during the civil rights movement. It is a symbol of racism and hatred.

That statement was met with overwhelming positivity on a national stage with 600+ likes and very few naysayers. The exact opposite was true of what I posted on WMBF news and below is a verbatim account of what happened. It is lengthy but ultimately you will get why I’m posting it. Many people, as you shall see, justify the confederate flag by saying that if we take it down, we should also take down the US flag, that black people owned slaves too and so they caused the problem. That blacks fought along whites in the south and that the Civil War was about state’s rights and not slavery. Over and over again, you will see these people, natives of my home state, try to argue with me and justify the racism and hatred that this flag represents. I think it’s important to see who is justifying this and I can tell you, there wasn’t a single black person doing so.

Gracie Williams: Yes, take down a flag that shows nothing but racism and hatred. The confederate flag is a representation of oppression, and treason.

Brad MacKenzie: We should remove all flags by racists? (shows picture of KKK members in Washington DC holding American flags)

Bobbi Owens Natali: Girl, where are you from????

Gracie Williams: Me. South Carolina. That flag was raised in the 1960s to be shown as pro-racism, and pro-segregation. The confederacy was an act of treason, done only because states wanted the right to keep their slaves. Yes the secession was about state's rights but it was mostly about the want to keep enforcing slavery. Read the letters of secession of each state and tell me I'm wrong. The Civil War was not the War of Northern Aggression and any blacks that fought in the Civil war on the side of the south were pushed into doing it, or promised freedom. The only reason that flag was raised on the capital was because it wanted to show solidarity with the white community and the KKK. Terrorists acts, like the one in Charleston, or the bombing of the church in Birmingham in the 60s, used this flag and southern pride as excuses. It needs to be taken down.

Bobbi Simpson: That flag is a sign that black people were sold to white people by black people and southern states were putting northern farmers out of business. If you study history, Lincoln wanted to put all the black on a ship and get them out of the country instead of starting a war that he thought would end quickly. I think blacks hate it so much because it reminds them that their own people deserted them for money. Maybe that's why so many of them kill one another.

Gracie Williams: I think you're insane Bobbi Simpson if you think that's true. It's not secret that northerners were just as racists as most southerners, the difference was that most people saw that slavery was wrong. But to say that black's hate it because other black's sold them out is a silly and unfounded assumption. Maybe in rare exceptions but not the rule.

Brad MacKenzie: Gracie, you read a very bad history book. Try opening up a real one.

Deleted Comment from User: You’re a moron!

Gracie Williams: Am I? I'd like to consider myself well educated and not trying to uphold a tradition of oppression and racism. Maybe instead of calling me a name you could give me an educated rebuttal? Or is that to much for someone who can't think of a great argument against my own. This flag represents racism, oppression and hatred, much as the German swastika represents hatred. Just because something is part of your heritage, doesn't make it right and something to be celebrated.

Jerrod Todd: This whole country was found on treason learn your history more innocent people have been killed under the American flag but it still flies high and so will the navel jack of the CSA.

Gracie Williams: Yes but we aren't talking about the American flag Jerodd, we're talking about the confederate flag. Which is the wrong confederate flag being used by the way. That's actually the flag used by Northern Virginia, but I digress. People talk about the good old days but racism is still alive and well and I don't see why we can't put one representation of it in a museum instead of treating it like something to be celebrated. I'm certainly not proud of my ancestors who fought for the war on the southern side and who owned slaves. There is nothing to be proud of when considering racism and oppression of black people.

Brad MacKenzie: Once again you show you know very little about history except whatever liberal BS you were force feed. (Reveals diagram of different versions of the Swastika used in several different countries with no source)

Kandi Bigby: I hate that flag. That being said can anyone tell me about the electoral college and the way it was running in 1860?

Gracie Williams: Considering Germany has outlawed the use of the swastika for it's Nazi symbolism in that country, I"d say that it's not liberal BS I've been force fed, but actual facts. I was friends with a German exchange student named Sabeth who lived in Munich her whole life and told me these things so far as Germany's outlawing of Nazi symbolism. You'll do anything to justify the use of this racist oppressive flag. People just want to deny the truth and uphold a tradition of true oppression. Fly it in your front yard, I don't care. But a government building should not be waving it around like a symbol of freedom.

Jerodd Todd: wrong the flag that was used by the Northern Virginia was square. like many of the other battle flags of the time. but it takes a raceism to know wat is it.

Paige Stack: You better take a history class before you TRY to speak facts. What you said is so stupid, it's call history, NOT racism!

Gracie Williams: You're calling me a racist because I'm calling this flag racist? Wow. Maybe you should come back to me with an actual argument instead of ignorant rhetoric. That flag is a representation of racism, oppression and hatred against people of color. It's a history of racism Paige. And I've read up plenty of history. I am well informed. People who defend this flag need to take a few real history lessons instead of relying on the rhetoric of old southern pride. There is nothing to be prideful about when concerning slavery, and jim crow laws and oppressing the black community and participating in segregation.

Jerodd Todd: and there only one race of ``humans'' called homo sapens meaning wise man. so maybe we should come up with a new correct word since you`re so smart

Brittany Kay Elliot: I don't see the point of putting it in a museum? What's the difference of displaying it there, than at a monument? Also I'm sick and tired of hearing about the KKK and the confederate flag. The KKK carried crosses as well. Are we suppose to abolish crosses and what it actually stands for as well? Get a grip people. It is apart of our heritage whether people like it or not. There has been plenty of blood shed due to other flags and they are still flying. So quit your gripping and start using your time to pray for our country and pray for the families that are grieving because a kid was messed up on drugs and did something horrific.

Cliff Potter: well Gracie Williams the battle is an amercian flag even the souhern soldiers are amercian vets according to the department of defence vet affairs it part of our history as much as you dont like it and for your info there were more black slave owners in sc than white ones and the frist slave onwer was black and there were white slaves also the irish was sold my England to the usa as slaves so please read your history agian but this time dont be playing with yourself

Gracie Williams: I'm of Irish descent and well aware of indentured servitude and white slavery. I'm also aware that the Irish did all they could to be as white as everyone else and in order to that were the racist of all racists in order to not be on the bottom rung of the latter. And Jerodd, that might be true. We might all be homo sapiens, but people still judge others by the color of their skin. As I shall reitterate often, just because it's part of our heritage, doesn't mean we should be proud of it. You're allowed to defend the right to keep it up as much as I'm allowed the right to say it should come down. Also Brittany, as far as I've been told he wasn't messed up on drugs. He sat in Mother Emanuel for near on an hour before calmly executing nine people because they as blacks were "raping our women and taking over our country." It was an act of racial terrorism. When we rationalize how the confederate flag is different from the swastika we just choose willful ignorance and to pretend the past didn't happen and that the violence it stands for was not real. Denying the truth legitimizes the hate

PD Vescovi: What strikes me as curious is why did it take the 9 people getting murdered to make you such a strong voice for the removal of that flag. If you are so passionate and so knowledgable on the subject, then why haven't you debated, petitioned, lobbied, etc for this flag to brought down?

Brad MacKenzie: Gracie has been too indoctrinated with liberal BS to let something like facts and logic get in the way of her ignorance. Best bet is to save your breathe for people who can have an intelligent conversation.

Gracie Williams: Maybe I have had a voice and signed several petitions but didn't have a larger platform on which to give my views. You don't know me personally PD and I have advocated for this to be taken down before. I used to believe it was southern heritage and pride, until I discovered the true meaning of that flag and have been advocate against it ever since.We can acknowledge acts of horror in our past, we can acknowledge elements of southern pride without celebrating racial oppression through this flag.

Katherine Hendry: Although I may not agree with everything you stated, I have to hand it to you Gracie Williams you definitely won the argument. You have convinced me to do some more research. Unfortunately not many others will follow suit.

Gracie Williams: I'm glad you feel that way Katherine. As to you Brad, yes I know. Because I dare want to take away a sign of "southern pride" and put it in a museum. Sometimes it isn't a matter of liberal or conservative views but of what is right and wrong and it is wrong, in my humble opinion, to celebrate this flag and what it truly stands for.Katherine here is a great article that raises several good points for both sides of the argument: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/420015/two-thoughts-confederate-battle-flag-reihan-salam . The problem with this subject is that there are several articles that go one way or the other and it's up to you to draw whatever conclusion you decide is best. Some see it as a sign of something to be proud of, others, like myself, see it as a sign of oppression and racism.

PD Vescovi: So Gracie. Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the SC state flag. And please don't run and google something real quick because we all know you're online right now due to your quick responses so please let us know what you think professor. Waiting.

Gracie Williams: Anything to detract the argument right PD? Well considering the South Carolina Flag is not used to create racial strife and used to oppress people, I don't see how this has any bearing on the conversation. Nearly all flags at some point and time have been used to oppress a certain group of people one way or another. Even the US flag. The argument here is about the confederate flag, which has a proven history of racial hatred and oppression associated with it.

Brad MacKenzie: Gracie way to Keep moving the goalposts and ignoring counter arguments. It's what ignorant liberals like you do when they have lost the argument on facts.

Gracie Williams: What exactly are you fishing for here PD? What do you mean, keep moving the goal posts [Brad]? I think I've stated my opinion with facts several times over. I haven't lost the argument at all. Am I supposed to decry the flag because it was recreated after SC seceded from the union? I mean, I don't get it. What am I supposed to be doing when you talk about the state flag?...Waiting...

Katherine Hendry: The way I feel is that while it may be part of my heritage, I am also German, and it's a pretty safe bet that Natzis are as well. I would never put up a swastika symbol. I realize that neither of these symbols in question were necessarily founded on hate but they do bring up mixed feelings. I don't hold any sentiment towards the flag so if it offends others, why would I want it in the the first place? Just my opinion. Thanks for sharing through article. I'll check it out Gracie!

PD Vescovi: Wrong. And I can tell you I just learned this having just recently coming off the tour to fort sumpter in Charleston SC. So either the tour guide is a complet idiot and lying to paying tourists or you don't know your history as well as you're portraying to FB. Secondly I never said that I was for or against the flag being up. But my point her e is if this is such a passionate subject to you then you have haphazardly put yourself out there. Just saying. Since Google and YouTube are your lesson books then Google the relationship of the state flag to fort sumpter, their fort flag, and the beginning of the civil war. Or just pay the ticket to go see fort sumpter. It's also a nice boat ride. And with that, I'm out of this ridiculous convo.

Gracie Williams: No problem Katherine.

PD Vescovi: Kathrine. I feel the same way as you. If it offends then whatever. I just can't stand people who use it to spread drama. I don't think that the TODAYs South Carolina have let the flag fly to spread hate and discontent

Gracie Williams: Have a nice day PD. At least we can agree to disagree. You detracted the argument away from the true argument but it's whatever. You're entitled to your opinion as much as I'm entitled to mine. that's the beauty of the US. And no Today's South Carolina might not let it fly to spread hate but that's what it was put up for back in the 60s. That's what that flag represents to me, and why I think it should be taken down.

PD Vescovi: Then Google Christmas and tell me if we need to do away with that too. My point Gracie is this because you've missed it. Charleston has a right to proud of how they've come together over this tragedy. This incident has nothing to do with the flag. Media and individulS are trying desperately to make it a race issue. If you feel that passionate about the flag then save it for later. This is inappropriate. You sound like you've brought it up solely for the date. Flaming the fire. That's what people are upset about. Basically pick and choose your battles better. You can make this argument any time during the year. Why now?

Gracie Williams: I made this argument because it popped up on my newsfeed and I wanted to share my opinion about it, as I've shared it privately amongst friends and family and on other social media sites before this came to pass. Yes, the media might be the reason so much attention is drawn to it now, but my thoughts haven't changed since high school on the matter when my US History teacher taught me about this flag and how his mind was changed when he had two German exchange students living with him. It opened my eyes to the fact that while it is my heritage, it doesn't mean I have to be proud of it. There are a lot of things I don't agree with and I could all lay them out on a table for you right now but they aren't the subject matter. This article came up, I responded with my opinion. That's all it amounted to PD.

Marshall Bradford Enloe: Take this flag down too? (shares picture of KKK members holding American Flag)

Gracie Williams: The US flag represents the constitution and the right to say what you want. Even if it's speech of hate. That flag represents the good and evil of this country, not just oppression but nice try trying to bait me Marshall.

Brad MacKenzie: Marshall, Gracie is of the "pick and choose" variety. One flag used as a symbol of racism is ok, another isn't.

Marshall Bradford Enloe: Is that what the slaves said when they saw it flying on the slave ships? I'm sure they understood completely when they saw the American flag.

Gracie Williams: Lol yes that's exactly right Brad. You have me all figured out. As the Flag of the US is a symbol of freedom, it's a defense against hate speech and good speech. A black man once defended the KKK's right to spew their vitriol because he believed in the right to free speech so much. The US flag is a representation of that freedom of speech. Comparing the US flag to the Confederate is apples and oranges. And I thought you were through with this conversation?

Marshall Bradford Enloe: So the slaves felt a sense of freedom when they saw the American flag? Ironic

Cliff Potter: well Gracie Williams you still havent made a good one when more blacks owned slave in the south than whites did and thats is a fact also there were as meany blacks that fougth for the south as for the north and invthe south that fougth along side the whites sleep in the same place eat with each other unlike the north that made them figth by themselfs and the only whites were the officers

Gracie Willimas: Slavery was a great wrong done by this country that was abolished in 1865. States of the confederacy seceded from the Union because they wanted to maintain slavery (all but Tenessee mention slavery when they seceded). The US was willing to admit that wrong. Nobody said slaves felt freedom but it was under the US flag that they finally experienced freedom. It doesn't justify slavery, but at least the US was willing to eradicate their mistakes while the southern states clung to the idea of keeping people in human bondage. The confederacy was founded as a way to keep slavery alive and it utterly failed. The flag used as the confederate flag has been used since the abolishment of slavery as a sign of hatred and a sign of vitriol and a sign of the "good old days." The US is far from perfect but the US flag isn't used to spread hatred, and is not a symbol of racism like the confederate flag is. The US flag is symbolic of freedom of speech, not a reminder of a terrible wrong done against the black community. As far as black slave ownership, maybe you left out the part where they owned their own family members in order to keep them close and to essentially get them out of the bondage of white owners. So while "owned by black people" it was a mere formality. There were also restrictions in place that if a freed slave didn't own property, they had to leave the state so freed blacks with property would buy their family members in order to keep them from having to leave. Other black people owned slaves in order to be "white" like their plantation owner counterparts. Slavery in all forms was disgusting and terrible but don't try to turn this into an argument that blacks are just as much at fault for racial divide as white's are. The point of this argument is that this flag was used, most definitely during the Civil Right's movement, as a way to intimidate the black community and to treat black's as inferior people. Of course people will justify anything they are invested in. It doesn't make you racist to not want this flag down but I can't stand for it being used as a sign of southern pride when I don't see it as anything but a sign of shame for what my ancestors did to black people by owning them and treating them like they were less than dirt.

Cliff Potter: iam not racist i have alot of friends they are all human its doesn't matter the color of their skin what matters to me is how they act and teart me some have even got me giths that has the flag on it and yes they were black got some friends that wear the flag themselves because they had family that fougth for the south and are proud that family fougth and the reason the north wanted to do away with slavery was the south had almost stop buying new slaves off there slave ships and they had to own land in order to stay free but you still dont address the fact that the frist slave owner in the usa was black and he own over 100 black slaves and went to court in order not to have to let them go after their 7 yrs of working for him was up because befor that everyone was sat free after 7yrs so how was that racist you think you know all adout this but you know very little about the hold thing i have studied it almost my hold life and thats along i still do alot of reading on it so please go learn the hold true before you start running someone down or our amercian flag and yes dixie is an amercian flag so is the Texas flag both of these flags flew over the own country and should be left alone and i not saing slavery was rigth or wrong it happen that is true but knowone today had anything to do with it so this shouldnt even be part of anything and if you rember we had a vote in the early 2000s for the flag to fly on the capital building where it was and the was 98 0/0 for it to stay there but instead that put it where it is today and as far as i know the white poeple only make up about 60 0/0 of the poeple in sc so the rest of them were black that voted for it to stay it done and over with get over move on the place where it flys now is a memorial for the vets. and how about the black on black killings or when blacks kill whites. poeple like you Gracie Williams look to the passed for reason to cause problems in the present these things in the passed cant be change the only thing that can be changed is the now and the only way to get that change is for both sides to act like they are poeple not animals we are all one race thats the human race we need to stop bring color of the skin into everything it not a black or white thing its a human thing is the way we need to teach our kids on all race thing if we so away with looking at skin color we do away with racism and it as easy as that but poeple like you obama al sharpton and others are race baiters wanting to make everything about the color of someone skin where like i say before i dont look at that i look at that i look at how that tread me.

Gracie Williams: From what I can discern from that block of text is that you are calling me a race baiter and deflecting the argument to black on black crime and black on white crime without giving me a true justification as to why this flag just can't be put in a museum instead of flying high over the state capitol. And yeah, it would be nice if we could live in a world where people aren't divided by their skin color but racism is inherent. You're deflecting the argument because there is no real, genuine argument as to why this flag, used to bring hatred and shame and fear to the black community, should be taken down. You talk about black owners in slavery, about how black people sold their own and about a long taught, and often wrong, assumption that black's are just as much to blame for the racism against them, if not moreso. The Confederate flag was placed on the top of the state house at one time, as a show of racial prejudice and has been used to talk about the glory days of the old south. Historically, it has been used as a sign of racism and racists still embrace that flag today. Even racists in Germany. White power groups and neo-Nazi's use this flag as a symbol of hatred in Germany where they cannot use Nazi symbolism. So tell me again that this flag needs to stay up? I'm tired of defending this argument over and over and over again. It needs to be taken down and if you can't see that, then it's your ignorance, not mine. Even republicans like Mitt Romney are saying it should be taken down so it's not just a Liberal issue. It's an American issue. We want to move forward, not go back sixty years.

In short, it’s easy to see that there is no true justification for the flag being up and so I say take it down. Put it in a museum and show it as a part of our heritage. Just because it’s your personal history does not mean you need to be proud of it. I’m disgusted with my ancestors who held people in human bondage, who treated black people like shit if only to become better and more white(as the Irish were treated horribly and the only reason they became accepted was by being more racists than any other ethnic group). Acknowledge your past, but don’t celebrate the horrors of it.

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