jack and tommy's big conversation :''''(

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@elytrafool
jack and tommy's big conversation :''''(
Reconciliation (an old comic)
found this in my files while looking through some old art, decided to finish the last page and just post it haha
Phil will not be in season 2 of Dream SMP, at least not any time soon. He does not like the idea of everyone forgetting their past because he would not be able to honour Techno the way he would want to.
Niki also will not be participating in season 2! She said there's similar reasons, she agrees completely with Phil, and also because she kind of wants to be known for things other than the DSMP
aw:(
i think i’m like obligated to post these now that i’m here, so here’s a few phil drawings from the last couple years
smth ab the impermanence of death yada yada
zzz snork mimimi
Do Not Stand at My Grave and Weep
Poem by Mary Elizabeth Frye
Wilbur Soot died six slutty slutty months ago
Wilbur Soot died one slutty slutty year ago
Wilbur Soot died two slutty slutty years ago
Okay I’ve seen talk about how Tommy trying to understand Dream is not that bad. Even good character development for Tommy which makes it an okay ending.
So allow me to make it clear: it is not good!!
The problem isn’t so much the subject itself. You can make understanding that this person is human into a good plot point. In theory.
However, the problem is everything else around it too.
Tommy does not come to understand Dream and then go home, finally able to move on, knowing that Dream is just a despicable person who was wrong to hurt him. No, Tommy dies.
This finale is not really Tommy’s finale. It’s Dream’s.
The character development was shown by Dream. Tommy goes to him and Dreams real motives are revealed, how he is not content with the world he has and wants to be immortal, but even more secretly he misses the simpler times and wants them back. He looks down on Tommy for being content to love things and love his friends and grow old one day but they’re not so different.
Tommy sees Dream’s memories and sees him happy before Tommy joined. That leads Tommy to conclude that Dream’s misery is partly his fault. And so Tommy says that he was wrong to have hurt him that day. He doesn’t explicitly say sorry but the apology is implied.
And so Dream doubts and questions what he was doing. He admits he does miss those simpler times and questions whether it’s too late.
Tommy is about to say something encouraging perhaps but then his face falls as he remembers the nuke. It is too late, because he’s doomed them all. And he says sorry.
Then Tommy wakes up in a new world with no memories but Dream is there and Tommy asks him if he wants to be friends.
…Looking at this sequence of events as a whole, its really clear that it’s not about Tommy. It’s not about Tommy learning to move on or be more empathetic. It’s about showing how Tommy and Dream aren’t really that different and that they could be friends in another life.
And look how it’s Dream who questions what he’s doing and asks whether its too late for him. He’s basically asking if he deserves another chance. And so its meant to be tragic that the nuke drops before they have a chance to find out.
It was Tommy who was told not to take his exile or what happened there so personally as the world doesn’t revolve around him and Dream would’ve just revived him anyway. It’s emphasised that his pain and suffering was unimportant to Dream and Punz and he should just get over it already. So what if it hurt him? Tommy only finds progress, not in getting them to emphasise with his pain and suffering, but in sympathising with their own pain that he had been too short-sighted to see. He was wrong to have hurt them.
This is Dreams story of being given a second chance. The finale of waking up in the new world is Dream’s second chance.
That is the story. Those are the themes! I hate it.
lets also remember the context of c!dream being c!tommys abuser makes everything about this 100 times worse.
Hey guys, I’m afraid I’m going to continue critiquing the DSMP finale.
So, with the first two streams I don’t think there were any major issues. I dislike the Dream and Punz friendship personally as staged disc finale was my least favourite plot twist so seeing that actually cropping up in canon isn’t fun. Another arc where Tommy and Tubbo decide to go and kill Dream is a little dull too but theyre good at making it feel fresh enough.
It’s with the third stream that issues really start making themselves known. Dream and Punz’s plan is not all that good or interesting, certainly not when none of these are going to be explored at all given that it’s the penultimate stream. Like, what does people’s limbos being determined on how they die mean? What did it matter? It doesn’t even fit with past canon! And why did the revive book allow Dream to mind control Ranboo? What even…?
More importantly though, Tommy is forced to give up all his possessions in his enderchest. Then he has to sacrifice his discs. I am incensed by this plot point. It’s once again reminding us that Tommy’s made to lose everything again and again thanks to Dream and these sacrifices are portrayed as a positive thing? Loving things isn’t a problem and he shouldn’t have to learn again and again to give up all he has without being seen as selfish. Its not fun seeing this character beaten down again and again. I was hoping that the finale would subvert this idea once more and remind us that it was cruel and wrong and that Tommy deserves to be happy and live.
Going into the final stream, I again hated that Tommy’s plan involved killing himself. Tommy’s character has low self-worth and has had suicidal thoughts so this is not a good plot! He should learn he has worth, not the opposite. He shouldn’t need to die for his friends and he certainly shouldn’t apologise for existing. His story was all about how it’s okay to be yourself. It was always thrilling to see him standing up and moving forward unafraid to stand for what he believes him no matter how much he was crushed.
Sadly the finale exceeded my expectations for how bad it could be.
All those ideas I mentioned? Discarded. Tommy plans to die… and does die. Tubbo dies as well, so the sacrifice meant nothing in the end. Everything was lost. All the memories and stuff that made the Dream SMP the special place that it was, gone in an instant. None of it mattered in the end. No one stepped in this time to save anyone.
And yet, that’s not the worst thing. Because this stream doesn’t really focus on Tommy. It’s Dream’s story. Tommy in the prison realises that Dream is just a person in the end, who had reasons for what he was doing. His reasons were his friends except Tommy joining the server got in the way of that. According to Dream’s narrative, Tommy provoked him into becoming what he was and Dream has always secretly longed for those simpler times.
Tommy finds understanding when he sees a memory of Dream before Tommy had joined being happy. And this causes Dream to have doubt and he makes it clear that he wants those times back, that he might give up on all his evil plans just like that. Tommy apologises to Dream for hurting him that first day and that’s apparently a sign of Tommy’s growth in finally learning to see the other perspective.
This plot is rancid. Dream makes no attempt to understand Tommy, not even a little. Despite Tommy repeatedly pointing out how much it all hurt and how much he’d suffered, Dream doesn’t show the slightest sympathy. Yet the narrative paints Tommy trying to understand him as this special thing? Like it was the solution all along. Dream can abuse people and cause immense suffering but its up to his victims to try and understand him? Why is the story telling us Tommy, an incredibly thoughtful character anyway, needed to learn understanding? Why is it hinting that Tommy and Dream were not so different and their stories mirrored each other, both secretly desiring the same things?
Dreams motives are so flimsy and it makes so little sense that he’d question his plan now. Yet he asks whether its too late and you can see Tommy’s regret for the nuke plan. His whole sacrifice thing, is everyone’s doom. How cruel. Dream can ruin everyone’s happiness but the question we should be asking is ‘what about Dream’s happiness?’ apparently.
And finally, we end u with the characters on a new world with amnesia. Though they’ve forgotten everything, we still see Tommy and Dream becoming friends and this is some sort of triumph, implying with what came before that yes Dream and Tommy could’ve been friends had Tommy not ruined Dream’s world by causing trouble on that first day.
Annoyingly, so many of these points don’t even make much sense. Tommy has tried to understand Dream before. He visited in the prison for instance. Tommy wanting to kill Dream is framed as a bad thing, like it was wrong to have this fixation but this fails to recall how dangerous Dream is to Tommy and how he’s promised to kill him repeatedly in the past. Tommy had been living alone drinking invisibility potions in fear!
Each element taken on their own is a problem, but the whole is so much worse than the sum of its parts. The bigger picture is that Tommy dies learning that his abuser was a person with feelings too that he screwed up and he ought to have been more understanding but his plan got himself and everyone he cared about killed. He is the monster that killed the server and everyone he loved.
Hey, thankyou! I’ll clarify that they’re not so explicit with the victim blaming. This is definitely the message I’m getting from the scene however.
Like Tommy asks why Dream took his discs and Dream answers that it was for Tommy causing trouble on the first day. A little later Tommy is killed and revived. He then see memories of Dream on the server before he joined and he realises Dream was happy before he joined.
When Tommy is revived, he says he finally realises that Dream used to be happy and loved his friends or something along those lines, (I can’t recall the specifics). And Tommy joining changed that for Dream. If I don’t misremember, Tommy says he was just having fun but hadn’t realised how much he’d hurt Dream back then and offers an apology for his old behaviour. Then he continues asking if Dream wants to go back to those simpler times, which Dream does.
So the text says that Tommy was part of Dream’s motivation, but it doesn’t go so far as to say that it was actually Tommy’s fault or that Dream’s justifications were in any way good. It’s not hard to read into that however.
And, the nuke destroying everything isn’t really examined much. Tommy’s plan is just there. He does say sorry before they all die to it though.
dsmp smiled. dsmp jumped
Received a nice letter from Tommy today, chat. The first one since I left. Apparently Tubbo killed Dream! They seem to be doing alright. Maybe he can even come to visit someday. Maybe
I hope they know I'm proud of them.
anyways i haven't watched the stream yet but like. c!jack manifold is an incredibly well written and complicated character who portrays the fucking horror of being forced into the role of a side character in your own life. of always being comedic relief and never being taken seriously. of being pushed to the limit, over and over again, and having to live through it. eight months of grief and isolation. of being so lonely you start to dream up friends that really love you. of being alone. of being alone when you once had someone. of, despite it all, moving forwards, onwards and upwards
i think. and this is all im gonna say on the matter. is that some of the backlash and negativity im seeing really just stems from dsmp being so many people's first fandom. something ending doesn't mean you have to leave. something ending BADLY doesn't mean you have to leave. you're entitled to feeling disappointed or unsatisfied, and you're entitled to leaving, but it's not like the world stops if your favorite media has a bad ending. things will blossom. things will be okay. many fandom spaces thrive best when their media is concluded, because then they have the free space and ability to do anything they want without worrying about canon dissonance. the supernatural fandom has been thriving for two years now. the danny phantom fandom has been thriving for fifteen. it feels horrible at first. but if it's something that meant a lot to you, that you've found a community in, leaving isn't the only choice. you're okay to stay, no matter the ending <3
anyways shout out to dsmp writers and artists, the best fan content community ive ever seen or been in. you all carried and built this story. pat yourselves on the back