Hello! I wanted to ask your thoughts about something. I read a post comparing some of Astarion's lines during his Act 2 scene with an unromanced Tav/Durge after the Araj encounter to his thoughts during his Act 3 romance scene when he is ascended.
After his encounter with Araj, he can say to the Tav/Durge he isn't in a romance with: "It's not degrading to use my talents, it's degrading that they fall for it over and over again." He's of course talking about his past victims. If that is the case, he saw a Tav/Durge that falls for him as an idiot who was only using him for his body. In fact, he says that only you were supposed to fall for him and not the other way around, and in his Act 3 graveyard romance scene, he admits to not caring about you at first, incase that wasn't obvious, lol.
I have to say, this poster is outing themselves in a way. Why did they choose to sleep with an attractive vampire with immoral values they can't stand while most likely knowing that he was using them and manipulating them? Giving your blood to him isn't necessary or enough to fully satiate him, so why did they most likely offer their necks to him every day? How are they any different from Araj? How were they not degrading or humiliating themselves by letting a vampire use them for their blood and use their lust for his own benefit? Simple, because they found him hot. I've seen many comments of fans admitting they only wanted to sleep with him while hating his immorality, but only started liking him when he started showing genuine affection by being vulnerable around the person he fell for - that's when they decided that they will stay with him and give him more of a chance.
There's this insufferable so-called fan on Tiktok who dislikes much of who Astarion is and talks about how she started loving him when he changed enough for her after denying him ascension. More than half the game and dozens, if not over a hundred hours in, and she stayed with a man she couldn't stand for the most part but slept with him and probably offered herself to him every day anyway? Yikes. She also had the audacity to say that he still has a long way to go to change for the better, to be good enough for her even with his Radiant Hopeful title. It's like he will never be good enough for people like her. It's strange to me because I thought they were the ones who claim to wholly accept him, for better AND for worse..
Disgustingly, some admit to only romancing Astarion because he allows them to sleep with Halsin.
I never liked Araj because of how out of place she is and how Astarion says something like "there's nothing more desirable in the world than a vampire, is there." After all the other conversations where he explains why he kept his nature a secret from you, how vampires are widely feared, how he expresses surprise when you agree to let him drink your blood after he tried to bite you in your sleep, the encounter with Gandrel, and to then express disbelief that Araj wants to be bitten - it's contradictory to then make him say that vampires are the most desired in a world where the majority treats them like monsters. It's almost like a certain narrative was being pushed... Certainly there are people obsessed with immortality and maybe some weirdos like Araj, but here he makes it sound like vampires are more desired than feared. We see that being untrue again when you meet the woman in the sewers who flees when you convince her that the man she met is a vampire. Hells, there's even the The Curse of the Vampyr book you can find very early on in the game that tells you to beware of them and how to protect yourself against them. If you play Durge and after you find out that you are a bhaalspawn, Astarion says that there are more scary stories about bhaalspawn than there are about vampires told to children. This tells me that from a very young age, many people were taught to fear vampires and for good reason - to keep their lives. We can also lose our lives to Astarion the first night his true nature comes to light. If you foolishly let him bite you, he doesn't care when he feels you resisting if you fail to stop him in any way.
There are also the tribes of monster hunters and the self-proclaimed heroes who live to kill vampires like Astarion.
As you may already know, during Astarion's romance scene after he ascends: "He will always see you as degrading yourself if you continue to be with him... but perhaps you wish to degrade yourself, and he knows it."
They point out the word "degrading" in both instances and say that it is proof that Ascended Astarion disrespects his lover for falling into his trap and that he thinks they are stupid if they agree to be turned by him. They think he sees his lover as a threat with more power over him and that his love for them is a weakness that could be exploited, so he needs to keep them close to have control over them. They think he wants to turn you for these reasons. My question is, why wouldn't he try to turn everyone else, even the ones who are willing, like Minthara? Interestingly, he denies Minthara immortality when she asks for it. Why doesn't he offer you immortality when you are only his friend? Ascended Astarion can still see his companions as threats without love being involved. I think there's an option to either plan on killing or turning your companions when you play origin Astarion and ascend. I still have yet to play origin Astarion, and I really want to, but time and motivation have been very little for me for a while now.
The poster thinks Astarion thinks you are humiliating yourself by asking for the same fate he just escaped from by giving up your freedom to him willingly by becoming his spawn. I'm pretty sure he's the one who offers it out of love and you can choose to accept his proposal, but what do I know. They say that he loses respect for you if you agree to become his consort because he hated being a vampire spawn. They also brought up how he doesn't feel pity for Cazador's servants who chose to be there and somehow compares them to the player choosing to stay with Astarion after he ascends. We see a whole whopping total of, what, four idiots who choose to serve a piece of shit in hopes that they are eventually gifted immortality.
They think he sees his own feelings of love as a weakness and only wants to turn his lover because of that. It's always astounding to me how they need to view this romance in such a skewed way. They also seem to not be able to make up their minds on whether he truly loves you or not. They usually agree that he doesn't love you anymore, but this poster says he absolutely does love you, but he only sees it as a potential threat to himself. I wonder if they think spawn Astarion wouldn't give his lover immortality if he had the power to do so, even if there was some sort of power imbalance that comes from it.
I'm interested in knowing your thoughts about how they tried to compare the degradation lines from his unromanced scene after the Araj encounter and the lines from the ascended romance scene, and their skewed views about his love for Tav/Durge. Also, do you think his thoughts about degradation and losing respect ring true when Ascended Astarion says that he knows how to play with love, that he would use your trust until you were nothing, and that he respects you in the end for choosing to reject his proposal? Yet another conundrum, because the anti-ascension crowd says he's always lying and manipulating you and that the only time he's being honest is after you choose to leave him. They only think he's telling the truth when he's reacting to his own rejection after three days of needing space and time to figure out his own feelings. I've always seen this scene as a way for Astarion to deflect his pain back to the person that broke his heart, as a way tell himself that it was for the best so he doesn't appear too vulnerable or needy. Even after all that, he hopes (the magical word those people are obsessed with) to maintain a connection with his ex-lover, to still be partners in crime. Why in his right mind would he think you'd agree to still keep any kind of relationship or friendship with him if you believe him when he said he would've just used your love as his consort?
I love your posts about Astarion by the way. It's sad to me that the first fandom I've ever really tried interacting with in my life is full of bullies and constant fighting. The side that mostly only loves Astarion when he's soft and submits himself to his lover's will and disrespectful treatment, are some of the most meanest, vicious people I think I've ever come across.
It's crazy to me how the majority in this fandom feels so threatened by the minority. They have the most popular opinion, but their belief in it must be so feeble that they feel so deeply offended by the few others who don't agree with them. From how often they drag his ascended path in the dirt, personally attack fans of this path, how they need to convince everyone why letting him continue to suffer and try to live within his limitations as a spawn is his best and true ending - all of this doesn't sound like people with strong convictions in their choice.
I'm not sure if I will involve myself in future fandoms for my own sanity. I was so happy to find such a morally gray love interest that I could romance in a game, but many of his fans try to turn him into another Wyll or Gale so that he's palatable enough for their own tastes. Similar to many other fans, I've never loved a character as much as I do Astarion. So, admittedly, it does bother me a little when I'm told I'm stupid, lack media literacy, or because they assume I haven't been abused in any way, that I can never fully understand or love Astarion's character as deeply as they do. When I'm told that I can only enjoy his ascended path as long as I see him as an abuser who doesn't love me anymore. They suck the imagination and fun out of everything and many of them sound like very hateful, unhappy, insecure individuals. Also, I'm one of those fans who loves Astarion no matter his path, but surprise, I find his tragic spawn path more sad, especially if he ends up with a lover who acts like any of these bitter, hostile, miserable harrassers.
I don't agree with the fans who think the Araj conversation and the Ascended romance line are meant to be interpreted in the same way.
When Astarion says after Araj's encounter that, "It's not degrading to use my talents, it's degrading that they fall for it over and over again," he's talking about a very SPECIFIC experience: centuries of seducing victims on Cazador's orders.
The degradation isn't simply that "someone finds me attractive." It's wrapped up in coercion, predation, resentment, and self-loathing. He's describing a situation where he was forced into a role and came to despise both the role and many of the people involved in it.
That's not automatically the same thing as the narrator's later use of the word "degrade" in the Ascended route.
Fandoms often latch onto repeated words and assume identical meanings. Writers frequently reuse words for thematic resonance rather than as direct equivalencies. The fact that the word appears twice does not prove that Ascended secretly thinks Tav/Durge is exactly like one of Cazador's victims or Araj.
People who think the Araj line is relevant to the romance scene generally go with the first interpretation:
Proof that Astarion sees Tav/Durge as pathetic and therefore beneath him because they only want to be turned because they see him as a fetish, just like Araj did before.
Then there's the second interpretation:
2.The degradation line has nothing to do with Araj at all. Instead, it's tied to what Astarion thinks of HIMSELF.
Tav/Durge is the SUN, MOON, and STARS to HIM, and therefore she's lowering herself by sticking with dirtâbecause ASTARION still thinks he's FILTH, i.e. unworthy of someone he sees as Ethereal.
Basically, even though he is incredibly powerful now, Astarion still thinks HE is the one who is BENEATH her, not the other way around.
In essence the degradation is about Astarion thinking this ethereal being is lowering themselves because they are choosing to be with trash.
This view is the only one strongly supported by all three acts.
On the broader point that Astarion is contradicting the wider worldbuilding when he says things like âthereâs nothing more desirable than a vampire,â I donât actually read that as him claiming vampires are broadly desired in FaerĂťn.
I read it as sarcasm and bitterness filtered through his personal experience. Heâs spent 200 years being treated as a monster, a tool, or a threat, so when he encounters someone like Araj who fetishizes vampirism, heâs reacting to the absurdity of that SPECIFIC situationânot making a general statement about how the world views vampires.
The game is pretty consistent that vampires are feared, hunted, or romanticized by niche individuals at best. Araj is an outlier, not the norm. So I donât see that line as rewriting world consensus, but as Astarion commenting on how distorted and objectifying Arajâs perspective is compared to everything heâs lived through.
Regarding the argument that he only turns Tav because he sees her as a threat to him, I think that interpretation is bullshit.
Because if his sole objective were neutralizing threats, there are far easier methods available to an Ascendant vampire than turning the person he supposedly sees as a potential usurper into a permanent companion.
You're also right to point out that he doesn't offer immortality to just anyone.
The offer is romantic in context.
The scene is framed as a proposal of eternal partnership, not degradation.
Put simply, Astarion is IN LOVE with Tav/Durge.
The simplest explanation is often the strongest one:
He turns Tav/Durge because he loves her and wants his love with him forever.
As for Minthara, that's actually a good counterargument to the "he turns Tav purely because they're dangerous" theory.
She is absolutely capable of becoming a rival.
Yet he doesn't seem interested in making her immortal through True Vampirism with his Ascendant blood.
That distinction is because his FEELINGS for Tav/Durge are what make them different, and therefore that's what makes him willing to elevate them.
Now, regarding the breakup scene after rejecting his offer.
Spawn-route fans often treat every negative thing Ascended says there as absolute, objective truth.
He's clearly trying to regain emotional footing after rejection.
That doesn't mean every sentence is a lie, but it also doesn't mean he's being truthful with everything he's saying either.
People often say painful things after being rejected that contain fragments of truth mixed with defensiveness, pride, self-justification, and attempts to protect themselves emotionally.
That scene absolutely reads this way to me because Astarion is IN LOVE with Tav/Durge, so OF COURSE he's going to be hurt, and say ugly things, when the person he loves doesn't want to be with him anymore, and especially when some of the breakup lines are based on hypocrisy.
They've essentially rejected his MARRIAGE PROPOSAL, his offer of eternity, and the future he imagined with them.
Realistically, who wouldn't be devastated by that?
As for his continued willingness to remain allies afterward, that's actually one of the details that completely undermines the "he never cared" bullshit.
If Tav/Durge were merely a pawn, or if Astarion genuinely viewed them with total contempt, then his continued attachment makes no sense.
Why the lingering fixation?
Why does his emotional investment continue to exist?
Why do any of above feelings keep being persistent if his love was a lie and he was only manipulating them?
Regarding the broader fandom issue:
I think you've correctly identified that many discussions are actually discussions about values rather than textual evidence.
Some players strongly prefer redemption arcs.
Some prefer morally gray romances.
Some prefer healthier dynamics.
Some enjoy dark romances.
Thus many players start with a conclusionâ"The Ascension route is abusive to Tav/Durge" or "Spawn is his happy ending because it's redemptive"âand then gather confirmation bias that they believe supports that conclusion.
My issue with the Spawn route is that whenever Astarion speaks honestly about being a spawnâespecially in situations where the player isn't successfully steering him away from the ritualâhis feelings are overwhelmingly negative.
He talks about powerlessness.
A life of eternal darkness.
And there's only ONE route that gets him out of that nightmare FOREVER.
Even after learning the moral cost of the ritual, HE STILL WANTS IT.
Even after expressing guilt about the 7,000 souls, HE STILL WANTS IT.
Even after Cazador dies, HE STILL WANTS IT.
Once he learns what Ascension can give him, his goal shifts from simply killing Cazador to reclaiming everything the curse of vampirism took from him.
I do think many people who dislike Ascension never accepted Astarion as a WHOLE person.
There's a contradiction when people claim to love Astarion unconditionally while simultaneously arguing that the parts of him they dislike aren't really him.
Nothing Ascended says or does comes out of nowhere.
The traits people dislike in Ascended were present throughout all three acts.
His willingness to dominate others.
His resentment toward weakness.
Those things didn't suddenly APPEAR in that Ascension chamber.
The difference is that Ascension strips away the last bits of restraint he still had as a spawn.
He stops softening himself.
He stops filtering himself.
He stops worrying about making himself palatable.
As Neil says the mask is off.
Quite frankly, it's having blinders on to act like Spawn and Ascended aren't the same man.
One simply doesn't have to restrain himself anymore because having power allows him the freedom to act as he pleases.
Whether someone likes Ascension or hates it, there is simply far more content devoted to exploring what comes next in that route.
More discussions of marriage, rulership, and eternity.
More reactions from companions.
More unique relationship dynamics.
More attention paid to what his life looks like after achieving his goal.
Meanwhile, Spawn's story after the Rite is more focused on what he lost.
His dialogue repeatedly circles back to limitations, survival, and adaptation.
That difference is why many come away feeling that Ascension functions as the natural culmination of his ambitions, while Spawn feels like a compromiseâthe result of a failed quest rather than its fulfillment.
Basically, as I've touched on before, a lot of Spawn fans seem JEALOUS of what Ascension gives him, because if they were TRULY satisfied with the Spawn route, much of the points below wouldn't happen.
They often spend enormous amounts of time not only attacking Ascension fans as fetishistic, but also rewriting the Spawn arc so that he receives everything Ascended gets anyway.
They argue that Spawn will walk in the sun again.
Marry Tav/Durge through immortality.
Overcome all of his vampiric limitations.
Basically achieve the life the Ascended route ALREADY has.
The only difference is that they want him to keep the softer, more vulnerable presentation associated with Spawn.
That's why I don't buy the argument that the issue is solely morality.
If the goal is to give Spawn all the same rewards, freedoms, and outcomes that Ascension already provides, then it starts to look less like an objection of the morality of that route and more like an objection to the version of Astarion who now OPENLY EMBRACES being a bastard.
In other words, people seem to want Ascended's VICTORIES combined with Spawn's TEMPERAMENT.
The blood hunger gone forever
The mirror scene with his restored reflection
But WITHOUT the arrogance, possessiveness, ambition, selfishness, and moral ugliness that Ascension leaves FULLY exposed.
The problem is that the game repeatedly shows those traits were ALWAYS a part of Astarion.
Ascension didn't CREATE them.
It simply stopped forcing him to hide them behind fear, insecurity, and restraint.
Ascended is not some bizarre corruption of the character.
He is an extension of traits that were ALREADY there.
People often conflate what is morally good with what makes a character happy.
Thatâs not always true, even in real life.
The Ascension Path is clearly evil.
But that doesn't mean it fails to give Astarion what he PERSONALLY wants.
Throughout the story, Astarion CONSISTENTLY expresses resentment toward everything vampirism took from him, but Ascension restores ALL of those things.
The Spawn route does not.
That is why I find it difficult to view Spawn as the fulfillment of ASTARION'S wishes.
At best, Spawn is an ending built around ADAPTATION.
It is an ending where he learns to live with LOSSâbeing gaslit into giving up the LIFE that Ascension would have given him.
It is an ending where he accepts limitations he NEVER WANTEDâthe permanent loss of sunlight and an eternity of blood hunger.
It is an ending where he finds a sliver of meaningâthrough mercenary work as a killer for hire and as a spawn leader in a hovelâdespite NOT getting what he TRULY desired.
It may be morally preferable
That is a separate view from whether it's what Astarion ACTUALLY wanted.
Did ASTARION want to remain a SPAWN with all its limitations?
Did ASTARION want to become a LIVING vampire and reclaim the LIFE he lost?
The answer is a consistent NO to the former and a consistent YES to the latter.
The narrative gives the view that:
Astarion was born mortal.
He enjoyed status, luxury, and freedom.
He lived beneath the sun.
He ate and drank normally.
So Spawn fans need to ask themselves:
Which ending is ACTUALLY closer to the life he had as a living elf?
Even the visual storytelling makes that clear.
Ascended receives an entirely new outfit that reflects status, wealth, and reclaimed identity.
Spawn keeps an old outfit associated with his enslavementâan outfit that isn't even unique to him, since one of his "brothers" wears it as well.
Even bringing psychology into it Ascension completes Maslowâs hierarchy of needs for him.
As a spawn, he exists in a state of constant deprivationâlacking safety, bodily satisfaction, emotional care, and control over his own existence.
1. Physiological needs (basic survival, bodily comfort, hunger, rest)
One of the most immediate benefits of ascension is liberation from the limitations that once defined his existence. He no longer suffers from constant blood starvation, nor must he fear being reduced to ash by the sun. His heart beats again, and as an ascended vampireâa being who surpasses even a vampire lord like Cazadorâhis power continues to grow with each passing day.
He also doesn't have to endure other weaknesses that burden ordinary vampires. He can once more partake in the pleasures of the living, likely no longer bears the scent of a corpse, and has regained the full range of his senses.
Instead of enduring an existence defined by relentless hunger and deprivation, he now enjoys a far more controlled and satisfying life, with stable physical needs rather than perpetual, urgent cravings.
2. Safety needs (security, protection, freedom from threat)
Ascension eliminates the fear of domination, exploitation, or vulnerability to stronger forces in the same way. He becomes THE apex authority in his own existence, no longer living under the shadow of a master or predator. He also has a home of his own (a palace) and money to buy any other shelter he so desires.
3. Love and belonging
Even emotionally, he now has someone who loves and trusts him forever, and with whom he can safely do the same.
Instead of the insecure longing and fear of abandonment that persist in the Spawn route even after Cazador is gone and even with a Tav/Durge that loves him.
However, I will give a bone to Spawn fans: the fact that Astarion keeps lying to Tav/Durge about her spawnhood (since he willingly gave his blood, she is actually a true vampire right after the turning night) shows that his fear of abandonment is technically still there. But turning her, and forming their marriage bond, does make his insecurity more manageable in this route than in the Spawn one.
4. Esteem (respect, status, recognition, self-worth)
Ascension massively elevates this level. He gains power, status, authority, and fear/respect from others. He is no longer humiliated or dismissedâhe becomes a figure of dominance, control, and significance, fully reclaiming agency and identity.
5. Self-actualization (fulfilling potential, autonomy, purpose)
Ascension allows him to pursue ambition without restraintâpower, legacy, control over his fate, and the shaping of his future. Within the framework of his desires, it represents the full realization of what he has CONSISTENLY wanted: REAL freedom, power, and permanent self-determination.
Essentially the ritual didn't just improve his situation; it resolved the fundamental deprivations that defined his existence for two centuries, replacing them with a life where nothing essential is missing.
At its core, Astarion's story was never about becoming a good man.
You do not have to be a good person to want that.
On your final point, I think one reason fandom debates become so vicious is because many people see their own experiences reflected in Astarion.
Some identify with his abuse.
Some identify with his recovery.
Some identify with his hunger for power.
Some identify with his fear of vulnerability.
Some identify with his desire for love and trust.
Once that happens, disagreement about the character can start feeling like disagreement about the PERSON themselves.
That's usually when discussions stop being about the text and start becoming personal.
And unfortunately, that's often where the fun disappears.
No one NEEDS to reject Ascended to enjoy Spawn, or vice versa.
Both paths can be seen as exploring different answers to the same question:
What does someone do after surviving centuries of cruelty?
One answer is to remain in a life of struggle because of the moral objections of someone you care about, while still holding on to a slim hope for a better future.
The other is to reclaim the life he lost, no matter the cost, so he never becomes anyone's victim again.
Cazador is DEAD in both paths.
Neither path erases who Astarion IS.
They simply emphasize different parts of him.
