This is in response to your commentary on [link]. My reply got stupid long and I couldn't figure out how to page break on a reply, so I just started anew.
See below:
On officer ranks requiring higher degrees: Yep! So google tells me. That's what made me think State Alchemists were similar, only their "degree" is far more difficult and rare than just a Masters or PhD.
That bit about State Alchemists automatically becoming a Major is straight from canon. State Alchemy licensure comes with a Major's rank and I was trying to figure out why a Major, specifically, and not the lowest officer rank available. (This is also why I often refer to Ed passing the Exams as "being commissioned".)
I decided its because State Alchemists would need the higher rank in the field during war or emergency or even standard field assignment. They're the subject matter experts so if they say "X needs to happen for Y reason", both enlisted and officers need to listen to them. So, they get the rank to enforce their authority while not stepping on any upper echelon officer's toes.
It's not a canon term, but whenever I describe Ed's rank I call him a "Specialist Major" as opposed to a normal military major who's been through officer training. He's got limited authority in normal circumstances -- he can't order a random First Lieutenant around without reason. But within his field of influence, his word is law. Alchemy is dangerous, after all. It's like having a NCO demolitions expert telling an officer not to touch the red button; given the right circumstance, the officer needs to listen to the expert.
As I'm writing from Roy's pov for a full half of this story, I've realized I really needed to work out a lot of how the military and government would work in Amestris because he's neck deep in both. None of what I worldbuild will be a 1-to-1 mirror to the American or pre-war German or any other real life military, current or historical, so that makes things easier. But I'm also going to have to make up a lot of it whole cloth with enough in common with canon that it feels seamless. I'm also going to have to make everything a lot more streamlined than modern bureaucracy and military could ever dream of just to keep from kamikaze'ing the whole project.
I'm really leaning into the military dictatorship of it all, with the Amestrosi government and it's military being completely entwined. The highest ranking general, Bradley, is also the head of state. Extrapolating that out, lower ranking generals take position as head of different departments as if they were the Secretary or Minister of modern government bodies, military, and intelligence apparatuses -- like the Amestris version of NSA, CIA, FBI, MI6, HLS, etc. The military controls internal security, foreign affairs, war/defense, their equivalent to the federal reserve, state mandated education, state news/propaganda, foreign and domestic intelligence, and so much more.
Amestris doesn't seem to have any other military than Army - no Navy or Coast Guard in a landlocked country or Air Force in a world without planes -- though they probably do have specializations that are something like the Marines, but I've got them as a part of the army, not apart from it. As such, I figure Combat Alchemists are part of their own branch within the army, at least during active war, and are absorbed back into the rank and file when not on the front lines. Probably there is someone who oversees all Alchemists - Combat or Research - no matter who they answer to in the day-to-day, as well.
I decided that while they are a military dictatorship, they're not going to call themselves that. Back when I first watched FMA in 05-06 or so, I didn't realize that Bradley's first name was King and thought his title was Fuhrer-King, as in a compound title that indicated his place as both civilian and military leader of the country. That idea has lived with me for twenty years. As such, I decided that Amestris would be a (corrupt) Meritocratic Monarchy wherein the highest ranking general was appointed as head of state. That way the homonculus could manipulate the government for centuries by choosing it's leaders before Bradley was ever created.
[sort of not really spoilers for my fic]
When setting up the timeline for Roy specifically -- because his rise in the ranks is truly ridiculous -- I decided he enlisted just after he turned eighteen. Enlisted, not went to officer school. His lower class background and care for his subordinates made me think he spent at least a little time as low ranked as possible. He wasn't worried about how long it would take to rise within the ranks because he always intended to take the State Alchemist exams -- with the boost in his rank that would come with it -- but was willing to cool his heels and work his way up the ranks like a normal person for a while. I have the average age of first becoming a State Alchemist sometime in their late thirties (with the youngest before Roy being 28), so he had plenty of time to get used to the military as a normal recruit first.
Then the war in Ishval broke out (Ishval being it's own country in my fic) a year after he enlists and Roy, being the young idiot idealist that he was, thought he would be more use for his country and for the soldiers around him as a State Alchemist. He takes the exams and become the youngest state alchemist in history at just 19. This jumps him from a Private or Lance Corporal to a Major in a day. They assign him a support team to work under him and send him out to war immediately. He has to figure out how to be an officer to people older and more experienced than him in the field, mid-war. (Cue comedy of errors)
The war lasts three years. Being the terrifying arsonist that had a significant role in winning the war that he was and having proven his unquestioning loyalty to the Fuhrer and Amestris (ha, jokes on them), he leaves Ishval with a shiny new promotion to Lt. Colonel at just 22 years old. That's when he finally goes through officer training, three years after he was first commissioned as an officer and given a small but significant command. And unfortunately for Bradley, a lot of the "bad" habits he cultivated in those three years -- the loyalty to his men before the mission, the quiet sedition, the questioning of authority -- are not beaten out of him in training and he starts taking the first steps in the plan to rise to Fuhrer.
He gets assigned as an investigator in the C-ISO (Central Internal Security Office) -- a subset of the country-wide Internal Security Department with jurisdiction only in Central Provence -- for a few years and then meets ten-year-old Edward Elric just after he turns 25. Makes full Colonel at 27, about six months after Ed breaks his record as youngest state alchemist ever. Gets transferred to East City to take over as head of the E-ISO (Eastern Internal Security Office), which takes him out of fieldwork and into the office we all know. Three years later we run into the main canon timeline.
To summarize my timeline:
18 y/o: Roy enlists in the army, becomes a Private
19 y/o: Roy takes the Exams, becomes a State Alchemist and is promoted to Major, sent directly to war
22 y/o: War ends, is promoted to Lt. Colonel
25 y/o: Meets Edward Elric, recruits him
26 y/o: Sponsors Ed in the State Alchemy Exams
27 y/o: Promoted to full Colonel, transferred to East City
29/30 y/o: Canon timeline
31 y/o: Coup de tat/Promised Day and promotion to Brigadier General
Like, a lot of that is purely my headcanon for my fic. But a good portion of it fits the canon as given to us. He absolutely made Lt. Colonel before 25 and full Colonel before turning 30. Like you said, Colonel is normally a retirement rank. That's insane. Just as insane as Ed's rank/position, just in a different way.
I still maintain that the fandom doesn't acknowledge how utterly bonkers Roy Mustang's rise through the ranks is. Especially once he's making Colonel and mother fucking Brigadier General.
I think my favorite part of royed is the realization( and silly horror) they have when they find out they genuinely care about each other in a frenemies type way even before the mutal attraction fully sets in. Or heck maybe even after. Like not only do I find this person hot, I genuinely find their company enjoyable and I hate that because thats not apart of the plan! Especially from Ed's side of things.
Someone, and I can't remember who, has recently posted a few fake scenarios wherein Ed is like "He's so stupid, I want to keep him" in different situations. It's so funny to read him disrespecting Roy and admiring him at the same time because it reads to natural to their dynamic.
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There's been a number of people reporting over on the AO3 subreddit that they're getting messages like this posted in the comments shortly after posting new fics.
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I do really love the idea of people thinking Roy is a honey pot. Lol 😆, especially where they try to debate where Roy learned said skills. Imagine Ed's reactions. Mostly I love the debates on exactly on what others reactions to Royed' relationship, especially if they find out about the fighting skills from both of them. I feel like they'd have so many theories.
Oh absolutely. Anyone who doesn't fall for Roy's act thinking he was a honey pot gives me life. The fic I'm thinking of has Ed call him something like a honey pot hiding a bear trap inside and I thought that was so very accurate.
Yeah, how modern fbi/svu react to their relationship is really interesting to me because we know Ed is an outlier and the exception to the rule for, just, so many thing that "normal" kids should not be involved in. I think teams like SVU and the BAU in Criminal Minds experience all the worst of humanity during the worst times of people's lives - or deaths - and are primed to see abuse (that's even a thing acknowledged in season one of CM; Hotch is trying to think of baby names but each one his wife brings up makes him think of a serial killer with the same name) so wouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt.
On paper, Ed and Roy are in an incredibly abusive relationship with severe unequal power dynamics. Roy met Ed when he was ten, recruited him as a child to join the military, and became his commanding officer for years. He is the one who sent Ed out on missions and could have him punished for insubordination (not that he ever did). And that's not even touching Roy helping them hide the human transmutation stuff.
From the outside, it looks like Roy had all the power and abused that power to force a minor into his bed. Only, the outside doesn't take into consideration Ed's power - that he's physically stronger than Roy, that he's uncompromisingly stubborn and doesn't do anything he doesn't want to, that he has never had a problem telling Roy to fuck off. Even as a teen, I think Ed is closer to Roy's equal than someone like Havoc - an actual adult - could ever be. But people aren't going to clock that equality at first - if ever.
The whole child soldier thing would probably be another mark against Roy rather than convince anyone that Ed was mature enough for a relationship, despite the fact that Ed was involved in shit far more traumatizing than just sex as a kid. They just wouldn't have a working point of reference for them so would fall back on their knowledge of American pedos instead.
I do think them finding out Roy was an insanely young colonel would be funny though. My interpretation of him is he looks like an aged-out KPop idol - and even tends to act all flighty like one - but then he reveals that he's actually a state sanctioned mass murderer and mastermind who successfully pulled a coup de tat in a military dictatorship. That shit is hilarious. Imagine Wang Yibo overthrowing the People's Republic of China.
#I’ve spent too long just admiring the animation in those 2 gifs #THE SHADOWS #like when he whips around #light moves with him and the first spot is back to dark #this might seem ‘well duh’ to most but these details are important for quality and realism #and then there’s the gradual change in his expression in the 1st gif #his eyes darken and crinkle and his mouth becomes more tense #very subtle but effective #on another note #what do you think Brohood!Ed would want to tell FMA03!Ed about guns
I remember in one of my writings talking about how the Ed in brotherhood couldn’t bear to use a gun but I never put that fact alongside FMA Ed’s experience with guns I figure this version of Ed is so done with the worldand he’ll stop at nothing to return to Amestris to find Al even if it means possibly killing someone I would never have noticed these tiny details damn but…I focus on different things I guess
#In this scene #in fact in this entire film #we no longer know Edward as the boy he was two years ago #My friend complained to me about how Edward was acting OOC in the film #But I explained to her that if I were to be taken away from my remaining family friends and workplace I would surely change too #I like to think of Roy as a permenant foreshadow during 03 and CoS #He is an adult that represents what Edward could become if he makes the wrong or right decisions #In the series Roy is a soldier with PTSD and is overbearing of the brothers #Edward was becoming more desensitised and over bearing of Alphonse throughout 03 to the point of attacking the child Wrath on pure suspic…#In the film Roy is alone and depressed and utterly filled with remorse and regret #Edward is dwindling towards that path himself #But being the Icarus hearted kind he is he still fights to get back what was lost #Unlike Roy Edward is not afraid of dying in order to achieve that #And just like the young Roy Edward in CoS is now not afraid to kill to archive that
#Of course I believe Ed did not sink as deep as Roy because well#Roy killed hundreds of people in the war#But both have PTSD and are haunted by their pasts and mistakes#Roy tries to redeem himself by doing something good#including offering a way for 2 orphaned brothers to find a way to get their bodies#and working to become fuhrer and rebuild the country#and never have to do something he doesn’t want to again#As for Ed and Al#their circumstances get worse and worse#AND THEY CHANGE AS A RESULT#that’s an awesome thing about FMA 2003#In time Ed is forced to make compromises on his ideals because if he doesn’t Al dies#And whether it is because he feels their entire situation is his fault#Or because he’s the big bro and thus should take responsibility#he ultimately spares Al some pretty significant horrors#LIKE KILLING SLOTH FOR INSTANCE#THAT KIND OF THING AFFECTS YOU#FOREVER#And CoS shows Ed’s depression and sadness wonderfully#In fact#If he had been all happy and adventerous it would have been comical and unrealistic
I'm feeling spicy, time to list everything I think BH outclassed 03 on. And by that, prepare yourself for the most backhanded, hyper specific or wildly vague, and strings-attached compliments you've heard in your fucking life. But actually, the reason I'm doing this is because I think 03 is better than BH in every way that matters. The majority of common points people give BH over 03 typically come down to attempts to make subjective taste sound objective since a lot of shit is really just a difference in priorities and/or genre rather than an objective flaw in the other show.
And, to be clear, 03 is the better show. It has a really strong thematic core and just says a lot of shit that I rarely see other stuff have the gall to say. 03 tackles heavy topics and tackles them well. It left me with a lot to think about, even years after my first viewing. It's a political piece of art that remains relevant 20 years after the fact. On some levels, it was designed to do this. 03 is a character drama that deconstructs a lot of the elements that make up the shonen genre, and it also very clearly had something to say. 03 has very few weak points and has some of the strongest moments I've seen from any piece of media that I've interacted with. I think a lot of its bad reputation comes from people failing to engage with the show on its own terms. I can only speculate on what's going through other people's heads, but expecting it to act as supplementary material for BH is a fundamentally wrong assumption to make about the show. These two shows are trying to accomplish very different things, so judging 03 on its ability to be BH is a boldfaced stupid lens to view the show through.
BH, however, is still a well-made show. Like, I'm more than happy to shit on it, but BH is by no means a bad anime. It's just not as ambitious as people claim it to be. And if it really is one of the best things Shonun has to offer, then that says pretty mediocre things about the genre imo. It's far from a bad show. I think it accomplishes the role of "fun action series" really well, but it also has gaping flaws the moment you decide to engage with the work critically. That's not necessarily an issue that I'll take with its fanbase. The show's got a lot of elements that make it good for cultivating one. Stuff like large casts, likeable characters, emphasizing its worldbuilding, prioritizing action over character work, etc. are all traits that are great for cultivating fandom, and they're all traits that BH has that 03 revokes. But yeah, BH does fall apart once you look at it critically. My biggest issues with it come down to the fact that the show baits you into thinking that it's deeper than it actually is. So, I'll take the bait and look for the deeper stuff and then find nothing, which is where my negative perception of the show comes from, which isn't helped by how common it is for people to take the bait without really looking.
So, yeah, in short, I have a mountain of good things to say about 03. It's an incredible piece of art with so much shit to look into. In my opinion, you're doing the show a disservice to watch it and not put serious analytical thought into what you're consuming. Meanwhile I have a lot of mixed opinions about BH. It's a great show to watch, it's just a terrible show to consume critically. This isn't even me calling people who prefer BH dumb or anything. The show's are just so fundamentally different from one-another that your preference truly does just come down to a mix of personal tastes and how you prefer to interact with media, especially if you're a more casual viewer of either/both shows. The part that makes me angry is how disrespected 03 is in the majority of FMA circles.
The animation and sound design of Roy's snap is really fucking good in BH.
While 03 may have an overall better art direction and visuals than BH, I do really like how juicy the BH animators and sound designers made Roy's fire attack. The fire itself is just so fucking juicy and satisfying. The BH team did a really good job at making that attack iconic. There's no "but actually" here. The BH team just fucking nailed this one aspect.
In general, BH has better special effects than 03. This is absolutely a difference in available technology at the time each show was animated. And while I do have respect for special effects animation; it's often the difference between animations looking really stiff vs getting across their intended atmospheres, especially in the realm of video games. Using a human body as an analogy, the special effects are more like the hair than the skin, fat, muscle, nerves, or bones. Both important but somewhat expendable.
BH's alchemy is much more logically consistent than 03's.
So, there are a lot of reasons for this difference. The two main ones are the BH and 03 can barely if even be considered the same genre of anime. BH is a fun fights-heavy action series with some intrigue plot, while 03 is a really critical deconstruction the genre BH embraces that's more of a character drama with a heavily knit thematic core than anything else.
And their commitments to their genres translate to each show's relationship with alchemy. In 03, Alchemy's rules are much more metaphoric than literal. Equivalent Exchange is the shit because it's representative of the philosophy that Edward clings to; that life is fundamentally fair, that there is some universal justification for everything that happens. And 03 is about tearing that belief into itty bitty pieces. In fact, we learn that Equivalent Exchange isn't even true. Everything about Alchemy in 03 is bound by the magic's metaphorical meaning. Thus, when it comes to fights, characters really just need to be able to loosely justify how their alchemy functions for the audience to go "oh ok." And, in 03, alchemy is fundamentally powered by taking the life force of something and using that energy to do something else. So, you get stuff like the ability to extract alchemical energy from plants in order to amplify your alchemy much later, Edward being able to turn his automail into a gun, Dante's alchemic dragon thing, Scar's arm being the Philosopher's Stone, etc. The point is that you're sort of meant to accept that "yeah thats a thing that can happen." In other words, the fights exist purely for spectacle and the logic behind them is low priority at best. So, the way 03 frames it's combat is that it has to establish rules that exist within their own space and work with those rules. So, it can't circumvent stuff like "Roy can't use his gloves if they're wet" because there's no reason to and giving a talk about how H2O has Oxygen in it would have been horribly distracting in the one scene where Roy does get fucking soaked. Especially since him being crafty in a fight is sold by him just using Havoc's matches + Armstrongs rocks to make frag bombs. Tldr, the way 03 is structured allows if not flat out encourages characters to bullshit during fights. I think the fast and loose usage of alchemy's principles in the earlier parts of the show also make the later parts of the show, where those principals turn out to be false, feel more believable.
Meanwhile, BH's alchemy is operating on a much more literal framework, so the writing has more room and necessity for creative and engaging combat sequences. In a way, the fights in BH are puzzles and alchemy is the tools the characters are given to solve those puzzles, so the fights become engaging because you want to see how the characters solve the puzzles. It's very gamey. That said, I do have to say that I dislike how the homunculi are fit into this system. Their lose condition is having their stones exhausted, which just translates into "they have more HP." Which is very bullshit. The homunculi in BH die when the story tells them to, at least, that's how their lose condition makes it feel.
Both shows heavily rely on the usage of gimmicks to make their fights interesting. For example, Roy uses exclusively fire, which he creates by snapping. Like, I really like how Roy's combat gimmick gets explored in this fight specifically.
I like how Ed ducks into a crowd in an attempt to dissuade him, and Roy's like "you think I care about collateral damage lmao." I like how Ed thinks he won the fight by slicing Roy's glove, but then Roy just ruins his day by revealing that he has two hands and therefore another glove. I really like how Roy's not taking this very seriously and Ed only wins because of Roy getting a flashback. This fight is just an excellent display of character for both of them and I love it.
Anyways, there are a lot of other character gimmicks. Honestly, 03 is so much better with its character gimmicks during fights than BH is. Like, I could list a ton of cool moments where the character gimmicks get played with. And part of how it does this is that every character plays by their own rules. No character will ever break their own rules, but the universal rules governing what is and isn't acceptable for a fight isn't very consistent. This does fit into 03s themes about how there is no universal truth. But yeah, that's how 03 structures its fights and why characters will sometimes just blatantly ignore the laws of alchemy.
Anyways, in BH, the rules are much less person-by-person and are more like "Alchemists can do XYZ," "Homunculi can do ABC," "Alkahestrists can do UWV," "Chimeras can do RST," etc. So, everyone has similar rules that they have to play by. Which also makes it so much more jarring when someone blatantly breaks those rules. Like, when Edward gets impaled and uses alchemy to not die, it's super jarring because that breaks the laws of human frailty and it doesn't really make sense. It's even worse when Edward fucks with Pride's Stone. Compare that to some of the blatant bullshitting in 03, like where Edward uses concrete to turn his broken automail into a gun. He shouldn't be able to decide when the shots are fired and where's the ammo coming from? But part of the reason it isn't jarring is because him turning his automail into a gun isn't a big deal or even particularly important to the scene he does that in. Or take bullshitting that is more relevant, like Alphonse performing a successful human transmutation. At this point, it's been clearly established that Alchemy's laws aren't true. So, Alphonse breaking them doesn't break audience suspense. Instead, the fundamental logic behind it actually working is tied to the story's central themes.
But yeah, BH's alchemy is a bit more logically consistent than 03's, but there's a very good reason for 03's alchemy to have some logical inconsistencies, which results in BH being much worse at breaking its own rules than 03 is.
A lot of the characters are just easier to get behind and digest in BH.
The entire point of 03 is that these characters are nazis and morally grey as fuck. Meanwhile, the characters in BH are primarily meant to be fun characters that you could comfortably fantasize about being or being friends with. The characters in BH are much simpler than in 03 and the show tends to gloss over their war crimes. Even when it addresses them, there's a billion asterisks and variations of "they're still the good guys." Compared to 03, where everyone is just messy and fucked up.
For example, BH Roy is easier to root for than 03 Roy, but that's because BH Roy is a fundamentally different type of character than 03 Roy. BH Roy is firmly a protagonist while with 03 Roy, he's much more antagonistic and complex. He doesn't solidly fit into the categorization of protagonist or antagonist because he's a bit of both.
And to be clear, I'm not calling the characters in BH simplistic in a derogatory way. A major benefit to simplicity is that you know who to root for and don't have to do a ton of heavy thinking to enjoy the story. That said, I don't think this style of character is necessarily appropriate for a story where the majority of the protagonists committed racial genocide and serve in the military for a fascist dictatorship. BH's characterization would've been a lot better if the story wasn't also trying to cover ridiculously heavy topics.
I've been using Roy as my go-to example since he's the only character to be one of my favorites in both shows, but I think the character who benefits the most from this point is Izumi. In BH, she's iconic. She's a slapstick oriented character who's just a joy to have on screen. In 03, her character writing gives me a lot of mixed messages. She's still very slap stick, but it's just weird in 03 since a lot of similar stuff gets unpacked, but Izumi being outright physically abusive to the Elrics at times just isn't. She's also much softer in 03; most characters are. And I'm mostly just left confused on how to feel about her. She has some great scenes, especially with Wrath, but the character feels a bit disjointed. In BH, she really benefits from being a nonparticipant in Ishval. The writing doesn't have to worry about her being sympathetic in spite of her committing genocide, so she gets to be divorced from the massive fuck up that was that section of the story.
BH has a larger cast than 03. Also, a lot of BH exclusive characters are more likeable than the 03 exclusive characters.
There's a lot of things to unpack here.
So, first thing that's kinda an obvious point is that BH prioritizes making its characters easily likeable to the detriment of its larger themes, 03 makes its characters likeable in service of those themes. So, it's a lot easier to get behind BH Mustang than 03 Mustang because Mustang's warcrimes just aren't that important in BH while they're the most important part of the character in 03. A lot of a character's likeability in BH hinges on the audience's ability to simply ignore the Ishval subplot, which was already a poorly handled subplot. While in 03, their likeability is intentionally contrasted with their war crimes to make a point. That's the primary reason why the characters in BH are more likeable than in 03.
And this also extends to the casts that are either version exclusive or unrecognizable between the two. Kimbly is a perfect example. In BH, he's designed primarily as a fun and bombastic antagonist who blows shit up because it's fun. They also made him extremely fashionable. Meanwhile, in 03 he's genuinely fucked up and views the lives of people as little more than tools to use to further his own goals, which is made interesting by Kimbly not being a top dog (like most villains running with that mindset are). He's at the bottom of the food chain and yet he still thrives under that mindset. BH Kimbly is the more fun character, but that's because BH Kimbly and 03 Kimbly are fundamentally different types of antagonist.
A lot of this comes down to tone. 03 is a much more somber show than BH. Unlike BH, it takes the premise of "child soldier works for a fascist government that partook in genocide a few years back because he wants to fix a mistake that made him and his brother permanently disabled" as a sign that the story is meant to be dark and a little fucked up. Meanwhile, BH tends to gloss over the fucked up shit in favor of selling the power-fantasy aspect of the story. This just results in BH's characters being a lot more fun. The surface level shit is the only thing that really matters to them when looking at BH since the deeper shit is simply shit and not really worth calling attention to.
The cast sizes also exist to further both show's individual goals. BH being about action and badass people being badass benefits from a larger cast because you get to see more flavors of badassery. It lets fights cycle between different styles of combat, which helps keep things interesting. 03 is a character drama. This benefits from having a smaller cast because it allows the show to spend more time unpacking a handful of characters.
There are a lot more badass female characters in BH compared to 03
I'll give BH a "you did the bare minimum" award for being an action show with female characters who are not just eye candy. That doesn't make the show revolutionary. It just says bad things about the genre that this isn't considered the bare minimum. But yeah, in both shows, most of the female characters are subordinate to their male peers. Hawkeye is defined as Roy's henchman. Winry is defined as Ed's love interest/childhood friend, Izumi is defined as Ed's mentor. In some aspects, this is fine. Like, the main characters are Edward and Alphonse, they don't need to draw attention away from them in favor of their own bullshit. But how badass a character is doesn't exactly translate into whether they're feminist.
Like, again, the reason you see more badass female characters in BH than 03 is the same reason you see more badass characters in BH than 03; BH is an action show, 03 is a character drama with some amount of action on the side. They're both guilty of employing sexist tropes. BH tends mix those tropes with badassery, while 03 tends to mix those tropes with character nuance. Doesn't change the existence of the tropes. It's sort of just something that you gotta accept about either show. That doesn't mean that its female characters don't have good moments in either show. Just that they're working from a sexist baseline. Neither show is particularly feminist, but they're also far from the worst offenders out there.
There are a few characters where I prefer their BH incarnations over their 03 versions.
The reason someone might prefer one version's character over another is a bit more nuanced than just which character was written better. The vast majority of overlapping characters fulfill different narrative niches in each story. For example, comparing 03 Lust and BH Lust has always felt disingenuous to me because while it's true that 03 Lust is the more compelling character, a major reason for that fact is that BH Lust was never designed with being compelling in mind. A more apt comparison would be 03 Lust to BH Greed, as those two characters do share the same niche of being an antagonist that makes the audience question the nature of the homunculi and eventually splits off from them. I'd also say that BH Lust and 03 Greed fulfill similar narrative niches as being a minor antagonist that establishes exactly what the main villains are all about and who's death is used as a tool by the authors to reveal exactly what the protagonist slaying them is all about. That's why BH Lust's death and 03 Greed's Deaths are both pointed to as highlighting points in their respective series. They both execute on their niches quite well.
This also accounts for the primary reason why someone may like a character in one show but dislike them in another. BH Mustang fulfills the niche of a secondary protagonist. In 03, he fulfills the role of a pseudo-antagonist / morally ambiguous major character. I happen to really like both versions of Mustang, but it's for very different reasons. In BH, I just think he's funny and has a lot of good banter. That's more or less exactly what he's meant to accomplish there. You're supposed to go "haha funny" and/or "haha awesome" with this guy. BH Mustang falls apart when you critically analyze him because the Ishval plot was mishandled, but his surface level traits are so good that I can just be like "I saw nothing." Meanwhile, 03 Mustang is a character who you sort of have to engage with critically to get the most out of. He's a complicated character and his relationship with the audience isn't a static variable. And there's merit to both approaches of character writing. There's as much value to a character where it's not worth overanalyzing them as there is to a character who doesn't really come into their own until you pull out the tweezers.
So, in case anyone's curious, which characters do I prefer their BH incarnations to over their 03 incarnations? Well, I prefer Barry the Chopper and Izumi Curtis in BH vs their 03 counterparts. Like I said, there's a lot more nuance than "this character was written better in one anime than the other" when regarding personal preferences. So, the reason I prefer BH Izumi over 03 Izumi is that I thought BH Izumi was funny and cool while I just got a lot of mixed messages about 03 Izumi. So, in this case, I think BH Izumi fulfilled her narrative purpose really well, while I have much more mixed opinions on 03 Izumi. As for Barry, it's a similar case where I thought he was really funny in BH, while I think he fell short as a more serious antagonist in 03. In Izumi's case, the failings I have for her in 03 are that I don't think her treatment of the Elrics is put under the same scrutiny that every other character is given. Like, in BH, her being physically violent towards them is played off for comedy. It's the same case in 03, but it doesn't work as well in this context because 03 is the show that turned the short jokes into an important metaphor, so it's really weird that Izumi's slapstick wasn't given the same treatment. And I found that really off-putting. Meanwhile, my main issue with BH Izumi is that the stuff around her failed human transmutation was extremely underexplored, which doesn't stick out as much as the slapstick issue in 03 because Izumi is ultimately a minor character in BH while she takes the mantle of a more major character in 03. Though, personal bias is a huge factor in why I prefer BH Izumi over 03 Izumi, since her specific plot about being unable to bear children just happens to be so alien to my personal life, as someone who's both never had a failed pregnancy, has zero interest in bearing children, and would happily make a magic "goodbye pussy" circle. It's not that this type of conflict can't still be compelling to someone like me, but it's going to require more narrative work than a conflict that I can more closely relate to. Hence, why it's personal bias. Meanwhile, in the case of Barry the Chopper, my preference towards BH's version is a fair bit less subjectively biased. He just fits really awkwardly into the role 03 tries to assign him. The issue is that he jumps back and forth between trying to be fucked up and scary to being a comedic antagonist, which just undermines both aspects of him.
Like, the antagonist for this scene, should end up looking completely alien to the version of Barry the Chopper seen in BH, but that version of Barry is played relatively similar to BH Barry in Lab 5, resulting in the 03 Barry being inconsistent.
And for every character where I prefer their BH version, there are plenty more characters where I prefer their 03 versions. And a lot of that will come down to personal preference.
Armstrong's a great example of a character who on a surface level isn't that far off between 03 and BH, but he just works so much better in 03 than in BH because of the different character niches he fulfills in both shows. In 03, he's a minor character, while in BH, he's a major character. So, in 03, he's not particularly developed. He's mainly a funny guy who has a few shots where he's sad over Ishbal, and then he ends up supporting Mustang in overthrowing the government, which he mostly does in a comedic fashion. That's a pretty apt description for both his 03 and BH incarnations, but I only take issue with his performance in BH. The reason for this is that he's a more important character in BH, so I expect the show to disclose more information about him, which doesn't happen. Like, in BH, I want to know more about how his refusal to fight in Ishval affected him, his relationships, his status, etc. But BH only addresses that through off-handed scenes where Olivier calls him a pussy, which don't really go anywhere. Meanwhile, in 03, first of all, Armstrong did kill people in Ishbal, so the massive question of "how did his time in Ishbal affect him" can be supplemented by other characters confronting similar questions. Thus, the minor amounts of information we are given about Armstrong alongside information we see from other characters who were soldiers in Ishbal like Marcoh and Mustang are more than enough to get across the general picture. Secondly, we actually do get hints at how Armstrong's goofier attitude and kinder disposition impact his career. Mainly during the raid in Dublith where Envy disguised as Bradly says "this is why you never get a promotion." As a minor character in 03, he's allowed to have the nuances of his character be heavily carried by implication. But I can't really give a major character like BH Armstrong that same affordance, especially when those hints are barely given. It doesn't help that Armstrong's backstory in BH very heavily leaned into the story's insistence that the soldiers didn't mean it when they slaughtered Ishval.
Edward is more of a Badass in BH than 03
Ngl, I'm cheating a little with this point because it's like "I agree with this point but I also couldn't give less of a shit about it." Which, that response is, at least, 85% personal preference coming into the equation. I'm not going to say that badass characters never resonate with me, but it's really uncommon because the badass character has to be someone I personally can somewhat relate to, which is a rare flavor of character in popular media. My own experiences with the two characters are that I find BH Edward to be kinda boring as a character while 03 Edward is the most interesting character in the show (as he should be given everything I said about what 03 is trying to accomplish). But it's a lot of the same stuff my general thesis has been; BH Ed is more badass than 03 Ed because BH Ed was written to be a badass while 03 Ed was written to be a compelling character.
The actual reason I wanted to bring up this point is because it's a common enough point I've seen people make when comparing the two shows and I find this point rather bothersome. Maybe that's because I take issue with consistently seeing a rather mediocre character being placed on a pedestal over one of the best protagonists I've ever seen. But it's also more the explanations that bug me than anything. Like, I cannot take anyone seriously who uses calling a character "whiny" as a critique. Maybe it's because you're looking for an action hero who can shrug off shit that would normally be traumatizing, in which case, you're in the wrong genre. Maybe you take some issue with characters being emotional in a vulnerable sort of way. 03 features a lot of characters displaying emotions in a dysfunctional sort of way. Characters are allowed to hurt in a way that doesn't fuel anything other than more hurt. Characters will repress their feelings and that will bite them in the ass. Characters are allowed to be depressed, not in a "waiting for the heroic do shit speech" sort of way but in the genuine "existing is painful, no energy, depression" kinda way.
And this is the point that rubs me the wrong way about the majority of complaints thrown at 03 Ed. It's not that wallowing in your own misery makes for good entertainment, but it's an important part of 03's themes and its point. I can also, just, relate more to this unproductive sense of pain. I have depression, that is what depression looks and feels like. It's unproductive, it's painful, it can't be fixed by someone just walking up to you and giving a dramatic speech. And that's why the way 03 expresses hurt resonates with me in a way that BH's just doesn't. It's low octane, and that's the point. That's what makes it good.
BH's Ending is a lot more Straight-Forwards than 03's Ending
I think that's the best way I can put it without saying something I flat out disagree with. BH, in general, is much more straight-forwards than 03, and the endings of both show embody that. BH is, ultimately, a fun show where the heroes have to take a bunch of twists and turns to come out victorious. Meanwhile, 03 is an extremely messy show about characters being put in fucked up situations and no one coming out of it unscathed. It's about decisions that will haunt you for the rest of your life. It's about situations where the right answer is the one you least want to accept. It's a show about how the people will create doctrines to shield themselves from the truth. And it's a show about human selfishness. The endings of both shows are exactly how their shows should have ended. BH was never going to have a bad ending and 03 was never going to have a completely satisfactory ending. If 03 had a happy ending, the show would've been worse off for it.
So, yeah, BH's ending is a lot more straight-forward. It's a happy ending where everyone gets what they want more or less. Narrative knots are tied. All that shit. I personally thought the ending was nothing special. Like, it's another happy ending. I can't fault people for enjoying it for that, but it's not the type of thing that's going to stand out in my brain.
Meanwhile, 03's ending does a lot of nontraditional things. There's arguably multiple major plot twists that come out of nowhere and are more of a "fuck you" to the audience than anything else. The protagonists end the series arguably off worse than where they started. Wrath and Gluttony are still alive and haven't had their arcs concluded in any satisfying way. There's no guarantee that the setting or the characters in it will continue to be okay after the series ends. And that's okay. The ending of 03 is very messy because it's meant to be messy because the point that the show is making is that the world is neither straightforward nor fair, which is why you gotta keep doing the best you can to improve it. That's why the ending is uplifting. Even though Edward's in arguably the worst position he's been in throughout the series, having literally lost everything, he hasn't given up, so you, the viewer, shouldn't give up either. Life doesn't end until it ends, so you should live.
And yeah, the ways that 03's and BH's ending function are fundamentally different. I can totally see why one ending would pass someone by. Like I already said, I didn't feel anything watching BH's ending but 03's ending felt very significant to me, and I could totally understand the inverse being true for some people.
Conclusion
People give BH too much credit and shit too much on 03. Like, 03 is just the better show. It's just that 03 isn't designed to be a comfortable watch in the same way BH is. You're meant to leave BH feeling good, you're meant to leave 03 with a lot to think about. If 03 makes you uncomfortable, that's a feature, not a bug. Many of the fan advertised strengths and weaknesses of each show is really just differences in genre.
And while I've repeatedly conveyed that 03 is the better show, that's not because BH is bad; 03 is just really fucking good. It's like comparing Elden Ring to Dark Souls 1; sure they're made by the same developers and have a lot of surface level similarities, but they're so fundamentally different experiences that viewing them through the same lens isn't fair to either. There are a lot of things that BH does well, and there are a lot of things that 03 does well. But it's not fair to say "BH does X thing better than 03 therefore it's better" (or the occasions where the inverse claim is made) because both shows are trying to paint very different pictures, to the point where I don't consider them to be parts of the same genre. There may be similar components, but the way those components are used is very different from one-another. Comparing the two shows makes for interesting analysis, but it's bad for the purposes of actually criticizing either show.
Forge Events RoyEd Cosmic Week Day 1 & Day 2 combined; My Sun / My Moon.
Not entirely happy with it, but if I keep poking at it, I'd never finish it at this rate. Initially, I wanted to go for Sun/Moon deity AU, but I couldn't figure out fitting clothing. Hence, Ed ended up wearing some fuckme boots (heavily based on Demonia Cult Wrath 310), and Roy just has.. well, that. It is what it is.
Closeup of Ed's face. He's kinda pissed cause he got places to be, but Roy keeps clinging to him, I guess.
i'm sure you get lots of asks but i'm new to the fanfic/tumblr fandom scene. when you say horrific topics like incest and noncon should exist, do you mean they should exist because it happens irl but it shouldn't be romanticized? because if so i agree. i think we should experience reading and/or writing such things. movies and shows have portrayed such acts for years. but i think the problem lies through the fetishization and romanticization of it.
no. I mean romanticize whatever you want. my stance has always been “write whatever you want, however you want.”
not to mention that you can’t always tell if something romanticizes bad things. two people can read the same fic, one can say “this romanticizes non-con”, the other can say, “no, this doesn’t romanticize anything.” it’s all about each person’s interpretation. it’s all subjective.
that said, if someone wants to romanticize bad things in fiction, then go ahead. it’s their rights and their freedom to create whatever they want, however they want. no censorship means nothing is censored, doesn’t matter how it was written/created.
and if these taboo fantasies are someone’s fetish, then as long as they’re not harming anyone in real life, what turns them on is literally none of your business.
incest and cnc kinks have always been one of the most popular kinks, and most people who are into them can separate fiction from reality.
(and if some of them can’t, their inability to separate fiction, kinks and fantasies from reality is not other people’s problem or responsibility.)
fanfiction is not an act of activism. someone’s kink and what they do in bed with their consenting partner is not an act of activism.
kill the moral cop in your head. fanfiction and kinks don’t have to be “morally correct”. it can be whatever turns a person on, however turns a person on, and as long as no one in real life is harmed, what they do and how they do it is no one’s business.
you don’t have to be comfortable with it. you don’t have to like it. you don’t have to understand it. you just have to mind your own business and not shame or harass others over fiction and fantasies. because otherwise it’ll just make you a bully who wants to find a “morally correct” excuse to shame and harass innocent people.
Hi!! I’m someone that’s new to the fma fandom (only got into it about a month ago) and I’m just curious.. Why is royed such a big ship???? I’m so confused how people can see a child, and an adult that’s his commanding officer and think it’s okay to ship them???
I think it's okay to ship whatever you want. I don't believe writing fictional "problematic" content is indicative of morality. Royed shippers can do whatever they want forever because it's all pretend.
I mean, Mustang is a character that we're supposed to sympathize with and root for, and he committed war crimes. Does that mean Arakawa and anyone who likes Mustang as a character condones and commits genocide? No, that's stupid. So, do people who ship Royed condone and commit pedophilia? No, that's equally stupid.
But to answer your question of what people see in this ship: it's the tension. The mutual irritation coupled with begrudging respect. The way they understand each other. The way they trust each other with their lives but will NEVER admit the fact out loud. It makes for an interesting and layered dynamic that is very easy to build a ship out of. I don't ship it myself because the adult/minor aspect isn't my jam, but I understand the appeal outside of that.
Not to bust in on someone else’s post but hiiii royed shipper here. This is all very accurate and good but I would like to also add: the guilt complexes. Roy and Ed are both defined, narratively, by their past mistakes via alchemy. From their first interaction in the manga, they are explicitly shown to be more similar then they are different through the text and paneling. They butt heads, but to the average person they are both terrifying state alchemists who wield a lot of power. We get this very lovely panel where Ed and Roy are literally set out from the rest of the crowd, literally placed separately and away from average people with some text along the lines “they aren’t quite human.” In the manga, this is our introduction to their dynamic. They fight, they both aren’t quite human. Roy and Ed both are working to fix their past mistakes and they are using and bouncing off of eachother to do so. There’s this utter blatant you scratch my back I scratch yours to their early dynamic that really compels me. Roy understands Ed from the minute he meets Ed, but Ed doesn’t really understand Roy until the end of the series. They clash because they are both too similar, have different methodology and Ed again doesn’t really understand Roy’s whole Deal™️ for a long time. Only for them to finally come together in full understanding in the finale of both mangahood and 03.
I find their relationship to be a really fun twist on the mentor/mentee shounen trope, and easily one of the most compelling dynamics in FMA. But I actually didn’t come out of FMA as a royed shipper.
Unfortunately, I found that the vast majority of the fandom sees Roy and Ed as having a father/son kind of relationship, and this is 90% of what platonic royed fics are about. Frankly, I feel like parental!Roy flattens so much of their more interesting elements as a dynamic and removes a very important thing both mangahood and 03 establish by the end of their runs: Roy and Ed are equals. If not in actual societal status, then how they view each other. Ed has grown up enough and understands the world enough that he can look Roy in the eye. Parental Roy kind of… reverses that in my mind, as well as I think introducing a kind of tenderness that we understandably want Roy to have towards kid Ed but really doesn’t match his canonical approach to mentoring Ed.
So I looked on the other side of the fence and found that, in my opinion, royed shippers were engaging in the royed dynamic in much more nuanced, layered ways then parental, platonic royed enjoyers were.
(NO hate to parental Roy, it’s just not my thing)
Also. The majority of royed shippers are interested in near the end of canon to post canon settings where Ed is an adult. Some aren’t and I truly do not care what people do with fictional barbie dolls (fantasy and play is not incriminating and never should be) but it’s a bit of a misrepresentation to flatten all royed shippers and all royed content/fic/art as underage when that’s just statistically not very true. Especially Royed in 2025.
I completely understand why people aren’t into royed, it’s absolutely not the vibe for everyone. But that’s the textual evidence that really drives that ship IMO and my personal experience of getting into it. (Also. COS. COS is so fucking royed coded it’s crazy)
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