Repository for Miscellania

[pcholkachai]

something rough and dirty

[figmentaria]

Writing this mostly for myself in hopes it'll help me move on for the time being: a quick, not terribly serious, and inconclusive look at all the Roaring Knight candidates and how none of them fully match up with what we currently know:

WHAT'S TRUE IN GENERAL:

NONE of the candidates currently have an understandable motive for the Knight's actions. NONE OF THEM. (Except for maybe Gaster and other members of the Mysterious Entity McGee club.) Trying to conclusively figure out WHY they're doing any of this is currently a wild goose chase.

The Knight is a shapeshifter, so their appearance is only so relevant. However, I wouldn't fully dismiss its default shape when it comes to clues. (Although, do we actually know that IS its default shape…? Let's say the shape it mostly frequently presents itself in.)

The fact the Knight supposedly created a Dark Fountain years ago throws a wrench in all but one of the less esoteric Knight options, which is why I'm going to largely ignore that for now and assume it'll be explained in a satisfying manner.

In a similar vein, the logistical issues aren't set in stone. I'm just working with what seem to be the facts after Chapter 5 (e.g. we'll assume for argument's sake that certain people would attract attention leaving the library before it's dark).

Time travel isn't on the table yet so I'm mostly going to ignore it here. Mostly. (Dimensional travel being possible is already here thanks to Sans Motherfucking Undertale).

The Knight is probably at least partially a Lightner. They can seemingly exist in the Light World and are capable of making fountains, which requires determination Darkners don't have. Still, who tf knows for certain?

So far it seems like it can't travel between Dark Worlds. The logistics here follow this assumption.

It kinda seems like they can maybe at least temporarily maintain their powers in the Light World while it's dark outside, rendering the point of their Light World capabilities moot for now.

Something ain't right with the Knight. With the odds of Kris' OG soul having gone missing going up with Chapter 5, there is in fact a non-zero chance the Knight has it, which has some implications but is also just speculation for now.

WHO OPENED WHICH FOUNTAIN:

The fountain from long ago: Unknown. Supposedly the Knight, but we have too little info to be certain.

The shelter, if it's not simply the same as above: Unknown.

Ch1: Unknown. Kris could have done it the night before, but someone else must have been involved to close the door behind them (unless that was random chance?! lol), and the music makes it seem like it was the Knight.

Ch2: The Knight.

Ch3: Kris.

Ch4: Knight-Susie-Knight. Whether the Knight opened these fountains is SLIGHTLY uncertain, but they ARE there so.

Ch5: Kris-Knight.

(We can also infer from Undertale and Entry Number 17 that Gaster has opened at least one Dark Fountain in one world or the other.)

THE CURRENT CANDIDATES:

Carol Holiday The mayor herself.

Pros:

The majority of the Knight's forms feature antlers, whether as a part of a helmet or otherwise.

From what we have seen and heard of her personality so far there's no obvious clash.

Cons:

Logistical issue in Chapter 4: how did she make it to the chruch before the Lancer Fan Club? Not insurmountable, but of note regardless.

Seems normal-ish.

Would she really endanger Noelle by having her caught up in a Dark World?

Chapter 5 made it sound like she's maybe NOT in cahoots with the Knight and thus also wouldn't be the Knight herself (not that Asgore would know if she was but still).

Notes: she's so obviously sus she almost has to be a red herring. At this point I wouldn't be that surprised to find out the real Knight Conspiracy was the friends we made along the way.

--

December Holiday The most popular candidate.

Pros:

Antlers.

Easily explains why the Dark Worlds created by the Knight are the way they are without Kris soul shenanigans etc.

We both know quite a bit and not that much about her, so we can slot in a matching personality no problem.

Her disappearance is obviously an important plot point.

If she opened the fountain that caused her disappearance, that would explain how the Cyber World fountain was supposedly created by the same person.

Cons:

Logistical issue in Chapter 2, where the Knight apparently left the Library before nightfall.

While she CAN be both the Knight and UNUSED, the fact she is very likely the latter is of some note.

She's not really missing if she's right there dawg.

If she's still a rational entity would she really not have contacted Noelle at some point? Would she trap her in a Dark World?

Notes: if she IS the Knight some kind of Masked Man shenanigans seem likely.

--

Rudy Holiday The new hotness

Pros:

Antlers.

A potential explanation for his mysterious illness, and as we all know there's something not quite right with the Knight.

No major logistical issues (unless Chapter 5 turns out to be one in which case this theory could be debunked in the first five minutes of Chapter 6.)

Says some weird shit.

Cons:

Would he really kidnap Asgore? I guess we don't know for certain it's for nefarious purposes but ???

Again, potentially putting Noelle in harm's way in Chapter 2??

A personal opinion, but I really don't like what this does to his relationship with Noelle and his character in general. Basically everything we know about him would be fake.

Notes: a perfectly understandable theory that's not for me.

--

Noelle Holiday, Vanilla Edition: Apparently this is a thing too.

Pros:

Antlers.

I'll be honest I haven't seen any non-time travel Noelle Knight theories, but I assume there are other pros to it too.

Cons:

Typically assumes time travel shenanigans.

Given Noelle's role in the story in general, especially on the Weird Route, this seems really out of nowhere.

--

Asriel Dreemurr We're heading towards crack territory now.

Pros:

Would also explain why the Knight's Dark Worlds are the way they are.

We don't truly KNOW he's at college, and with all the fucky stuff about Hometown, it's more than possible something's not right here either.

As Kris' brother has an obvious connection to them.

Cons:

Same logistical issues as Dess in Chapter 2.

Clashes with what we know of his personality. He ain't Flowey in this world.

It's hard to imagine him having a body type matching with the Knight's (yes again it's a shapeshifter but bffr).

Notes: I hope he's okay. :(

--

Papyrus With Chapter 5 went from a tired joke to a far-fetched but not entirely impossible option.

Pros:

Apart from the lack of antlers, the absolute best physical match to the Knight's most frequent form. Ain't no-one else got a waist that snatched, but I'm almost more concerned with the Knight's weirdly long arms and stigmata (since Papyrus certainly has the former and him never taking his gloves off comes up in the text of Undertale).

No logistical issues with any of the new fountains. If anything, his absence seems to match with the Knight's movements.

His obvious connection to Sans means his involvement with space-time shenanigans is more than possible.

He's a shockingly nuanced character with unexplored depths rather than the simple comic relief figure some people claim he is.

He almost has to appear in Deltarune for Undertale to make sense, and so the fact he hasn't made an appearance yet means there's something strange going on. That doesn't make him the Knight, but that WOULD be a reason for his absence so far.

Cons:

Him being new in town raises a lot of very good questions.

The Knight's actions hardly seem to match his personality in Undertale. Willingness to use violence to reach his goals but specifically never killing =/= casually killing Darkners.

A complete non-entity in the story so far, to the point where he's completely missable and not even named in optional dialogue.

Of all the common candidates, he's easily the most disconnected, to the point where it's really hard to see how the Dark Worlds created by the Knight could come from him.

Notes: If he's involved there's almost certainly some kinda Gaster Bullshit™️ at play. Also, I miss him. :(

--

Sans LMAO

Pros:

Ultimate troll move.

Cons:

Has a really good alibi for Chapter 4

Notes: No-one actually thinks this.

--

W.D. Gaster Here for completion's sake.

Pros:

Seems to have tremendous power over the world of Deltarune.

Shattered across time and space, he's everywhere at once and can presumably fulfil multiple roles simultaneously.

Stigmata ig.

Cons:

The Knight's behaviour is wildly different from his demeanour.

Would make the ending of Chapter 3 really weird.

He can't be EVERY mysterious entity.

Notes: IHMO he's much more likely to be the angel if he's another Mysterious Entity McGee besides himself.

--

Kris Knight (through their OG soul in the Vessel)

Pros:

Would explain why the Dark Worlds are the way they are and their resemblance to Kris.

Cons:

But why tho???

Chapter 2 logistical problem.

--

Weird Knight (a.k.a. time travelling Kriselle Knight) The new NEW hotness.

Pros:

Well, it's creative.

Cons:

Narrative dogwater.

--

FRIEND

Pros:

It's spooky and ominous.

Cons:

Rougly as much of a character than Papyrus Deltarune so far despite having actual appearances.

Notes: The new update makes FRIEND sound scarier AND less likely to be the Knight

--

The Knight is more than one (separate) person

Pros:

Can be used to solve logistical issues/other concerns with the above candidates.

Cons:

Turns into weird conspiracy stuff really quickly.

--

The Knight is literally a combination of more than one person (that's not Kris+Vessel Knight or Kriselle Knight) Same as above but more eerie.

Pros:

Can also solve every logistical etc. issue.

There's a wide variety of ways in which this could be the case.

Wouldn't be the first time something like this happens in a Toby Fox game.

Cons:

Hard to speculate on.

Notes: honestly? I'll be the opposite of surprised if the answer's something like this.

--

Darkner Knight Uh???

Pros:

Would explain why the Knight is so weird.

They could presumably move between Dark Worlds.

Cons:

How are they doing any of the rest of this? Even Ralsei, the most anomalous Darkner we know of, still can't enter the Light World (supposedly, anyway).

Notes: this'd be one way to turn our expectations upside down.

--

Knight Knight a.k.a. they are none of the above and are their own thing.

Pros:

Unbound by most constraints

Cons:

Toby you've got some 'splaining to do.

--

CONCLUSION: I've got nothing. If I had to guess, the Knight is an exception to at least one currently established rule, which makes trying to predict their identity by following said rules futile. Hopefully Ch 6 will either give us the answer or at the very least seriously narrow down the range of possibilities because WOW are there a lot of unanswerable questions both in regards to the Knight and in general at the moment.

[rainesaur]

????? WHY WOULD I SAY THAT LMAOOO

[figmentaria]

So, Chapter 4 of Deltarune heavily suggests Sans Deltarune IS Sans Undertale from before Undertale. The hows and whys are still a total mystery, but the question that bugs me the most is one that currently only leads to further questions.

What about Papyrus?

Evidence in favour of only Sans being from the Deltarune universe:

Sans appears to bleed while Papyrus doesn't.

Papyrus has (supposedly) never seen a human before the events of Undertale.

Papyrus doesn't (supposedly) recognise the sun.

If Sans ended up leaving his original brother behind, that would explain some of his desperation to return.

Evidence in favour of both Sans and Papyrus being from the Deltarune universe:

QC's/Snowdin Shopkeeper's comment about the brothers just showing up one day COULD just be about them suddenly moving to Snowdin, but either way it does suggest they came together from wherever it is they were before.

The "green grass" comment in the Q&A is intentionally ambiguous, but if it's not a cute reference to the Kickstarter trailer it suggests Papyrus is from somewhere other than the underground.

Less evidence and more a question, but if it really is just Sans hopping dimensions, what the hell happened to the original Sans Undertale? How did Sans Deltarune and Papyrus meet? How much does Papyrus know of what's going on (he clearly has some idea about his brother's secrets)? What would all this even mean?

I feel like Green Pippins even bringing this up, but: the non-unique enemies on the Sword Route seem to correspond to important characters in Undertale (and specifically Undertale due to the inclusion of flower enemies; the cats could be stand-ins for ghosts although that is admittedly a reach). There are, however, no skeletons to fight, which might indicate the skeletons weren't originally a part of Undertale's world.

Miscellaneous oddities:

Papyrus has a vague notion of what a toilet is despite toilets not existing in the underground (but the underground has some access to human media which could presumably mention toilets).

Papyrus is WEIRD. He breaks physics in a different but equally noticeable way as Sans does and exhibits other strange behaviour that can be dismissed as comic relief or just a part of his quirky personality but which could also point to something more. There's also the fact we know absolutely nothing about his past from before he arrived in Snowdin. However, it's impossible to prove this means anything without further evidence.

Sans has seemingly teleported in the Light World in Deltarune the same way he does in Undertale???

More a vibe than anything concrete, but Sans and Papyrus sure feel like they've known each other their entire lives.

Conclusion: I've got nothing. Hopefully we actually get to meet Papyrus in the next chapter of Deltarune and that'll gives us some clue as to what the hell is going on with these two, because right now I'm frankly baffled.

[just-some-random-anxious-bitch]

I've been Tabbymaxxing too much

I saw some banana chocolate chunk icecream in a shop and thought "that's the type my cousin Tabitha likes" and then went "wait-"

I forgot she wasn't fucking real

Help

[expmemento]

bro reddit Stella hate is actually so crazy, I know it's a fictional story but I legit don't want to meet those people in real life if that's their reaction to how someone who is traumatized and lacks a good support network deals with crisis situations

[a1are]

[tiriabyss]

There's no such thing as "too many Tabithas"

[figmentaria]

Btw people also tend to exaggerate how much Tabitha hates pushovers/passive behaviour.

[figmentaria]

Oft-repeated Tabbymaxxing advice: Be kind but stand your ground and push back as needed.

Me, who has starting from their very first playthrough easily befriended Tabitha simply by being friendly and calling/texting her whenever there's an option to do so: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(I almost feel like the "push back" advice is more likely to be detrimental to new players than not since how are you supposed to know when's a smart time to push back before you know how she ticks?)

[broken7721]

Best characters in the game.

[figmentaria]

Scarlet Hollow Final Chapters predictions except they're all incorrect (major ep 5 spoilers):

Tabitha putting us in the Omelas hole is entirely predicated on whether we fucked with her mac and cheese on day one.

Allying ourselves with Sybil goes amazingly well with no further catches or costs and with no-one else getting fucked over.

We can feed the boiled peanuts to Wayne and this makes Things?happen.

As a rebalance, the MC now has a gun.

Tabitha accidentally eats a pot brownie at Avery's baby shower.

Kaneeka voluntarily wears something that's not a 10/10 fit.

We welcome another member to the Dead Moms Club and no-one present calls us out for being hideous.

There's a safety inspection and the Scarlet Estate gets condemned before anything else can happen to the joint.

Going willingly into the hole turns out to be the happiest ending for everyone.

We confront the true source of all that is wrong with Scarlet Hollow: Dustin the dresser opossum.

[figmentaria]

Talked to my mum about Scarlet Hollow again (because apparently that is a thing I do) and when I told her you can try to skip town she was immediately like "but surely you wouldn't leave your cousin behind" and honestly she's so real for that

[blacktabbygames]

A traveling show? And you'd want me there, too?! Oh, could we go to towns along the beach? I've heard the Outer Banks are the most beautiful place in the world...

[a1are]

tabitha..... she's a pathetic miserable liar to everyone and to herself and I love her sm ughhhh... I'm gonna break this goddamn cycle of abuse or die trying 😔😔😔

[figmentaria]

Me as Tabitha Scarlet says 'fuck' for the 57th time in Episode 5: yeah no girl I feel ya

[figmentaria]

So what are the odds it turns out Frou-frou's behind everything?