Greenskinz Rule!

[fistofgork]

Don't suppose you've read Dynasty of Monsters? Just finished it and I have to day it's an amazing book. Showing Death in a great light, with Order being absolutely awful in it. Such a good read.

i have, yeah, it was real nice to read about the forces of death actually winning, i quite enjoyed it.

[fistofgork]

I’m super interested in Alarielle, but don’t know much about her personality in AoS. I only really know her major plot points. I know in the End Times she merged with Ariel and Lileath and in AoS she died but was reborn more “warlike”, but what else? Does her character come across the same as her Fantasy self? Does she even remember her daughter, or Tyrion, or Finubar? From what I’ve heard she’s more like Ariel now, especially if she's going to be paired with Kurnoth/Orion and not Tyrion.

To begin with I should note we've mostly only gotten a very macro view of Alarielle. Not very much a personal one. That being said, from what we've managed to glean, she does seem more connected to her Isha/Ariel self than the old Alarielle in behaviour at current. Again, however, this is mediated through the fact that we've only really gotten a look at her in the midst, usually, of leading battles, whereas Alarielle from Fantasy has several novels-worth of scenes where she is just relaxing or not literally in the middle of a melee.

Kurnoth is weird because whenever Alarielle is written about in person she seems to act as if she doesn't even know she ever had a consort called Kurnoth, so how much he meant to her is hard to say.

On the front of Tyrion's interactions with her these are sorta hamstrung by the fact that, until Tyrion has a miniature, he's basically a ghost. Like he's technically in existence, but he always has some reason why he can never be interacting with anyone, so its not like they can write scenes of him and Alarielle chatting or sharing opinions.

Eldyra, sadly, largely seems forgotten, that much I can say.

I think when approaching AoS approach Alarielle, all the characters in it, more as new characters, appreciate them on their own merits and such. I like Fantasy's Alarielle/Tyrion a lot as well, but AoS Alarielle doesn't cheapen what the Fantasy pair had.

[cursed-40k-thoughts]

Another thing i wanted to add, I'm not really surprised that dawnbringer crusades are a thing. AOS has always been about Order's struggle to reclaim the mortal realms from the forces of Chaos, so it was kind of inevitable that something like that would come about

AoS is about all of the different grand alliances vying for control of objectives and territory, with chaos serving as a consistent nemesis between them.

To say the focal point is Order struggling against Chaos ignores half the setting. Death, for example, is a massively important (and popular) alliance that is opposed to Order and Chaos and Destruction.

[fistofgork]

thank you for saying this, truly. it gets really annoying people literally just saying AoS is just about Order and Chaos. what the hell are us Death and Destruction players meant to be then?

[cronnissar-deactivated20241106]

This!

Like 40k, people latch onto the human faction, presume it's the protagonist faction and that the game has to revolve around them.

I dunno if it's a lack of imagination (you could literally be anyone in a fantasy setting) or some kind of subtle supremacist thing (ew!), but looking at a multi-perspective setting like AoS and saying it's about one faction's struggle is both narrow minded and exclusionary.

What about Grand Order Destruction and Death players? What if two friends play each of those against one another? Are they playing the game wrong?

The answer is of course they're not.

All factions are valid!

To believe otherwise gets you nothing but a game where everyone plays the same thing vs the same thing.

I call that being boring AF.

[fistofgork]

yeah i feel the same way. i also just don’t really understand looking at a game with a multitude of players investing in it and just deciding ‘nah, only some players should be catered for, the rest should just accept they don’t matter,’ as a position. it just seems utterly callous to me.

i want everyone to have fun with their factions. everyone.

[fistofgork]

i just seriously hope this era of the beast brings with it some actual major victories for destruction. kinda getting tired about all this talk of the era of the beast we’re getting but its just constantly about how order is going out their, kicking ass, taking land and such. would like the forces of destruction to do some stuff too if this is their era.

would be nice for kragnos to actually do anything to deserve his reputation, rather than just quitting the field of the first and only major battle he’s ever been in.

[cursed-40k-thoughts]

Another thing i wanted to add, I'm not really surprised that dawnbringer crusades are a thing. AOS has always been about Order's struggle to reclaim the mortal realms from the forces of Chaos, so it was kind of inevitable that something like that would come about

AoS is about all of the different grand alliances vying for control of objectives and territory, with chaos serving as a consistent nemesis between them.

To say the focal point is Order struggling against Chaos ignores half the setting. Death, for example, is a massively important (and popular) alliance that is opposed to Order and Chaos and Destruction.

[fistofgork]

thank you for saying this, truly. it gets really annoying people literally just saying AoS is just about Order and Chaos. what the hell are us Death and Destruction players meant to be then?

[fistofgork]

I’m not sure how much you keep up with the TW:W scene but if you have what are your thoughts on Kislev and Khrone so far?

Also are you more inclined towards Ogres or Chaos Dwarfs coming as the first DLC race?

I keep up! Looking forwards to seeing Cathay too. I don't mind either Khorne or Kislev armies. I will admit I find the sleighs a bit funny looking, but I think overall the armies are fine.

As for which race I'd personally rather see: Ogres, I feel with Chaos already providing 4 of the 6 armies at launch having Chaos Dwarves there as well is too much, so I'd prefer Ogres, personally.

[fistofgork]

Thoughts on the new Kruel Boyz?

They are high quality miniatures and I like that Destruction is being varied more and getting more forces.

They are not my favourite type of Orruks, but that is because I *like* the big, armoured, variant. In Fantasy I my favourite Orcs were Black Orcs and in AoS my favourite Orruks are Ironjawz. But, they're good miniatures and I have no problems with them. Just not an army I would collect personally, I will stick with Ironjaws and Moonclan Grots.

The only thing, honestly, I find odd about them is I feel it is a bit strange that the 'Kragnos as patron,' army is all about stealth and cunning, when Kragnos is the polar opposite, he's just all 'charge forwards all the time, hit everything bluntly, no sneak, nothing but forward charging,' I wonder if they seriously intended to connect the two groups always or if Kruleboyz were designed before Kragnos and they decided to make the connection just for relevance.

[banshee-king]

Good point about Kragnos and the Kruleboyz. I also find it weird who Sigmar chose to combat this threat. Yndrasta is meant to be a beast/monster hunter. The Vindictors phalanx unit would also be good against large monsters or cavalry.

I get that Kragnos fits that, but the Kruleboyz? Their entire army is made up of infantry, with 2 boss characters on a larger mount. They're supposedly a stealth faction! Sigmar immediately countering the Nighthaunt with the Sacrosanct Chamber was a little unfair for the Death alliance, but at least it was thematic.

The new Stormcast feel confused, they have a static phalanx unit, a mobile chariot, Annihilators (a forth variant of Paladins?), a bodyguard unit, the Knight-Judicator (reskinned Knight-Venator), a Knight-Arcanum (because Lord-Arcanum and Evocators weren’t enough?), a literal second Knight-Vexillor, and a strategist leader (what do Lord-Celestants do?).

It’s a bit of everything, a bit redundant in parts, a bit random for them to be the rivals of the Kruleboyz. I don’t dislike the models, I think they look alright, but I wish they had a more cohesive theme. Like if GW is running out of ideas for Stormcast units they shouldn’t have updated them again.

[fistofgork]

I will admit that with the build up which consisted of an emphasis on hunting beats and monsters, GW is even referring to 3rd edition as the ‘era of the Beasts’ I did expect the Destruction force we get to be more orientated around, well, beasts and monsters.

We’ll have to see if maybe successive waves of the Kruleboyz contain more. But, for now, I found that surprising personally, yes. 

[fistofgork]

Have you seen the new stuff with Kruleboyz? What do think of them?

I think the Kruleboyz are high quality miniatures, GW continues to show that they know how to make 'em, and I like the crossbow-variants particularly.

As I said in the other ask they are not my preferred flavour of Greenskinz, but that's just down to personal taste, to each their own, and I'm not going to deny they are well put together.

As I said in the other ask the only thing I'm perplexed by is making them revere Kragnos when he is the polar opposite of cunning or sneaking. Seems like a strange combination to me. But, perhaps that's the point.

[fistofgork]

Thoughts on the new Kruel Boyz?

They are high quality miniatures and I like that Destruction is being varied more and getting more forces.

They are not my favourite type of Orruks, but that is because I *like* the big, armoured, variant. In Fantasy I my favourite Orcs were Black Orcs and in AoS my favourite Orruks are Ironjawz. But, they're good miniatures and I have no problems with them. Just not an army I would collect personally, I will stick with Ironjaws and Moonclan Grots.

The only thing, honestly, I find odd about them is I feel it is a bit strange that the 'Kragnos as patron,' army is all about stealth and cunning, when Kragnos is the polar opposite, he's just all 'charge forwards all the time, hit everything bluntly, no sneak, nothing but forward charging,' I wonder if they seriously intended to connect the two groups always or if Kruleboyz were designed before Kragnos and they decided to make the connection just for relevance.

[kinrypu]

[kinrypu]

[fistofgork]

The End of Enlightenment - Thoughts

I finally finished this after handing in my latest chapter and having a bit of a breathing room. 

So, like, at the outset my general opinion was that the book was okay. It certainly isn’t amazing, to me, or one of my favourites, but it was fine. 

Strong Points:

I enjoy the world building it does on Lumineth and Ossiarch Bonereapers, although this is mostly limited only to the first few chapters. However, a peek into the monastic life of the Alarith was fun and I enjoyed the details concerning it.

I liked that the book went out of its way to make formation and manoeuvre important. I don’t mean that the author did some masterful, realistic, depiction of warfare, because this is a fantasy setting where I don’t expect that from an author (they are authors not military historians) but the book made sure to pay a lot of service to the idea that the use of formation and positioning were critical in battle. As both the Lumineth and Ossiarchs are armies which depend heavily on discipline and formation that was nice to see.

I feel the Lumineth and Ossiarch are good choice for foils. I enjoyed that we got that to an extent.

I enjoyed the central conflict of the main character, Stonemage Y’gethin, focusing on his being caught between his feelings of longing and guilt over his dead sister (he blames himself for it and wishes to restore her) and the balanced, very Craftworld Path-ish even, need for centering himself that the Aelementari system demands. 

Weak Points:

One large, structural, weakness for me to the story is that the main ‘plot’ feels utterly disconnected. The overarching importance to the conflict is meant to be that our main character, Stonemage Y’gethin, must stul Akridos, a Liege-Kavalos of the Stalliarch Lords who seeks to slay the Light of Eltharion but...like...the Light of Eltharion never even appears. We never even see it. It feels so absolutely absent from the story that it feels like the main plot point never has pressing urgency. It almost, honestly, feels to me like the story had the ‘save the Light of Eltharion’ angle shoe-horned into it AFTER it had been written and it weakens the plot by making it feel as if the main plot point never arrives.

The characters outside of the main character and villain are rather underwhelming. Alithis, the leader of the Stoneguard, is also fun and memorable, but outside her and the two principle actors the rest of the cast feels more to be defined by stock roles (the cocky captain, the scheming vizier, the old seneschal) than any real depth. Not a huge problem in a BL book since, to be totally fair, that’s really standard stock for them.

Neutral Points:

The inclusion of a ‘romance aspect’ between Alithis and the cocky cavalry captain was just a bit groan inducing to me. It feels really cliché but, when it comes to pairings, I think things are really subjective. I mean I like Tyrion/Alarielle and that’s about as cliché as you can get. That’s why I wouldn’t hold this against the story, just want to point it out.

The story feels very fast actually. Page count is fine but, when I actually think about what happens in it, there isn’t that much. This really isn’t inherently bad, it does lend the story a punchiness but, at the same time, since one of my main disappointments was feeling that few of the characters got a chance to establish themselves, maybe they could have done with a bit more time.

It’s an okay story and I’d sort of say it was moderately entertaining. Had some very nice high points and I do like that its the second Lumineth novel we’ve had already. Keen to see more.

Anyway, next up, in a bizarre reverse order, I will now read the first Lumineth novel!

[fistofgork]

Kragnos loses already?

Hoping I’m wrong but they have stated that Kragnos’ fight in Broken Realms is focused on Excelsis (we’ve known for some time Gordrak intends it as his next target) and now we’ve seen a map from the upcoming edition of AoS where the commentators specified Excelsis’ presence on the map so...

Kragnos is going to lose in his first fight? Hope not but it will be a real pity if right after Be’lakor Kragnos loses too and Broken Realms literally was just Order winning.

We’ll see.

[fistofgork]

Broken Realms

So with the confirmation on today’s Warhammer Community article that Kragnos is the final Broken Realms book I am going to say that I consider Be’lakor a disappointment then most likely.

I doubt Kragnos is going to deliver a major win for any non-Order faction so, yeah, it will be very disappointing to me if this series comes and goes without just giving one of the non-Order factions their own climatic victory.

We’ll see what happens in Kragnos but I don’t think the end will focus on a Death, Destruction or Chaos victory personally. We’ll see.

[fistofgork]

Broken Realms - Be’lakor

Yeah so this one I have serious mixed feelings. Whilst with Teclis I had one quibble but overall found it good this one has one worrying development to me in the style, not the content. The content is still mostly good, but this one has a more serious issue I hope does not become a pattern. To avoid spoilers I will continue after the line.

Keep reading

[monarchcelebi]

While I see what you mean, I don’t entirely agree. The way I read the climax was that Vindicarum, while not completely erased from the map, is in utter ruins from the siege. While I personally wish that Be’lakor did completely stomp like morathi and teclis did, I think that overall this is a good sign for narrative progression. 

Because you’re right, chaos (like xenos) in 40k can never really pull a victory of much worth. I would like chaos to get more victories in 40k as well as AoS, but for me this is a good step forward. Abaddon, when compared to Be’lakor in this book, is a joke. Here be’lakor gets shit done and makes things harder for everyone, especially Archaon. 

Maybe its a subjective thing, but when I look at broken realms and the 40k equivalent psychic awakening, broken realms utterly slaps the shit out of PA. Stuff actually happens here, stuff that matters. Personally I like BR: Morathi more because, well, I love DoK. 

This turned into rambles, I apologize. 

[fistofgork]

No need to apologize, I understand what you mean.

To begin with just: I agree that it is still a VAST improvement over how any of the 40k campaigns are written. I did say so myself as well, and stand by that. Even for my critiques Broken Realm: Be’Lakor is still a better written ‘defeat’ than 40k ever manages for Chaos. As you say, and I also said, comparing even Abaddon’s treatment in the lore in Fall of Cadia, the only Campaign book to ever even somewhat let him win, it is clear that AoS doesn’t feel the need to, at every turn, suck off one faction over the others.

From Be’Lakor’s manipulation of the Slann, his casual slaying of Lord-Celestant Volker, his defeat of Gardus, his creation of the Cursed Skies, his wiping out of the Sigmarite Brotherhood it is, in simple terms, just a fact that AoS isn’t afraid to make a Chaos character ‘badass’, whilst by comparison in 40k the lore of almost any non-Loyalist Space Marine is often just a parade of them losing.

It is an improvement over 40k, by far, but it still felt the need to make it that the moment we had a non-Order character headlining they couldn’t just straight out win.

That is a problem for me. Not because of this single incident, if this ends up being an outlier, for example, it won’t even bother me. What is a problem for me is that this is the FIRST Broken Realms book not focusing on an Order character and also, worryingly, the FIRST Broken Realms book which feels the need to have its headlining character defeated in the end. My concern is just that this becomes a trend. If, by the end of Broken Realms, we have that only Order headlining characters ever get to just win out-and-out that will be really disappointing to me.

We’ll have to wait and see if that happens, and I hope it will not, but that is my primary concern here.

With regards to this particular Broken Realms book my main critique of the book itself is that I feel the defeat was unnecessary. The destruction of Vindicarum serves no explicit part in Be’Lakor’s greater plan (the Cursed Skies) it just creates a centre point for him to lose to Order too.

I don’t see why it had to be included. Why couldn’t the climax instead have been Be’Lakor’s destruction of the Sigmarite Brotherhood and the creation of the Cursed Skies? Then we’d have kept the only substantial plot points of the book and also avoided having Be’Lakor just lose at the end.

Either way; ultimately to me it remains to be seen what happens. If we do still in Broken Realms get multiple instances of headlining Destruction, Death and Chaos characters winning then I won’t mind this incident with Be’Lakor. However, I cannot suppress that because the very first time a non-Order character headlined they lost, and prior to that two separate headlining Order characters didn’t, that I am worried.

[fistofgork]

Broken Realms - Be’lakor

Yeah so this one I have serious mixed feelings. Whilst with Teclis I had one quibble but overall found it good this one has one worrying development to me in the style, not the content. The content is still mostly good, but this one has a more serious issue I hope does not become a pattern. To avoid spoilers I will continue after the line.

Keep reading

[banshee-king]

All good points. I suppose it’s better than a “everyone technically won” scenario where the end is vague and inconclusive. However GW does have a problem with 1) knowing who their target audience is, 2) giving said audience what they want, and 3) marketing the story to the correct audience.

Eldar are the classic example of this. A story/campaign will be advertised as being heavily Eldar centric, which would only appeal to Eldar fans, and then the plot is written for people who hate Eldar, but those people wouldn’t buy a story about Eldar protagonists, so who’s the audience meant to be?

I do have more hope that a Destruction themed Broken realms will be better though. Not sure about Death or Chaos, but for some reason I just get the feeling that Godrakk will be treated more like Morathi than Belakor. Perhaps because he and Morathi aren’t “main” villains, so they get to have fun on the side but GW is too scared to let the big villains win? Not sure, hopefully characters like Nagash and Archaon get a win.

[fistofgork]

I would prefer ‘everyone won’ to ‘the first time a non-Order character is starring they have to lose,’

I just dislike how blatant this is. We had two straight books starring Order characters and GW never felt a need to not have them just outright win, but now the moment we’ve moved on to a non-Order character they do?

I do hope this doesn’t become a pattern. I’ll be watching the remaining Broken Realms books closely, I sincerely hope we get some Chaos, Death and Destruction focused ones where they win. It is only fair.

Yes, I agree with your overall assessment of their problem with the audience. Aeldari are definitely one of the biggest examples of it, for sure, with Xenos in general in 40k being good examples. 

Another example is Black Library, to celebrate Broken Realms Be’lakor, is selling this compilation of stories about Be’lakor set in Fantasy and 40k. I know all those stories. Be’lakor loses in every single one. How is that marketing for the character?

There’s a reason so few people grow attached to, for example, Xenos characters in the lore. It is very hard to grow to care about a literary character when all they seem to do is exist to lose endlessly and fail everything. The characters have nothing appealing about them because they become just obvious vessels for Space Marine fans to project their superiority on to.

Anyway this is not the place for my 40k bitterness.

I do seriously hope that in the remaining Broken Realms books we get to see ones starring Chaos, Death and Destruction characters where they just win. I sincerely hope so. 

[fistofgork]

Broken Realms - Be’lakor

Yeah so this one I have serious mixed feelings. Whilst with Teclis I had one quibble but overall found it good this one has one worrying development to me in the style, not the content. The content is still mostly good, but this one has a more serious issue I hope does not become a pattern. To avoid spoilers I will continue after the line.

So the overall content is still nice in that Be’lakor is still given WAY more room to do damage, show-off and succeed than in 40k campaign supplements. To use a simple near-peer of his: compared to the absolute rubbish treatment Abaddon gets in both Fall of Cadia and Vigilus Burns, Be’lakor here is depicted as an actual legitimate threat.

To highlight some successes:

He successfully manages to blind the Slann to his actions by destroying an ancient artefact in such a way they don’t realize it was him.

He manages to trick the Seraphon into destroying a Silver Tower which helps power him up and move his scheme along without them realizing it was him.

He is able to secure an alliance with Olynder and manage to attack right into her capital.

He wipes out an entire Stormhost, completely, they cannot reforge even, the Sigmarite Brotherhood and they are gone for good.

He destroys a lot of cities.

He is clearly depicted as vastly more powerful than his closest rival in the book, Gardus Steelsoul, is when they fight one-on-one.

He manages to create his own ‘ruin-storm’ phenomenon which is spreading over Chamon, and implied to spread to the other realms too. This storm prevents Azyr from sending reinforcements or communicating with Stormcast beneath it and also prevents them from returning to Azyr when they die, instead their souls are dragged into the storm or captured by anyone nearby who can.

As you can see this is all good. He kicks a lot of ass. I honestly think the book should have just ended with his creation of the ruin-storm and showing off its effects when he wipes out the Sigmarite Brotherhood.

But, sadly, it doesn’t. Which is my issue.

The first two issues set up brilliantly Be’lakor’s manipulations and strength. He achieves a major goal and dispatches some expendable foes doing it. Fine. That’s great. Similar to Morathi.

But, then, the book includes a third and final act which just exists so the climax of the book about Be’lakor is Be’lakor getting his ass kicked. 

I think that sucks.

I think if you just excised the entire third act it would be fine. A good book about Be’lakor named Be’lakor. 

All the third act does is mean that his successes end up, to a reader, with a bitter taste because the ending is him running away with his tail tucked between his legs after failing to destroy the Vindicarum. It just exists to give Stormcast and Order a ‘rah-rah’ moment in Be’lakor’s own books. And it is the climax.

What I don’t like about this is that it is pretty telling that of the three Broken Realms books so far the first two both were about Order Characters and had their Characters just end with a victory. Our first non-Order one, starring a Chaos character also, ends with the Chaos character loosing.

This is, to me, a very bad look. It is always a bad idea to make the starring character the loser because people who like Be’lakor would like to read the Be’lakor book about Be’lakor without it having to actually end up, at the end, to be about Gardus Steelsoul.

I seriously hope this does not become a trend and that Broken Realms is going to have books starring Death, Destruction and Chaos characters where the book ends with them winning too. I seriously hope so.