Call me Flav. I delete posts becuz "I'm not the same weird person I was 5 days ago, I'm way weirder now". New followers scare me, thank you very much. I hate fandom hyperfixations but here we are
I think saying that Valentino is being woobified is not…the correct word. Vox, and the way a lot of the fandom downplays his villainy into something more palatable for them by making him a victim and then overemphasizing that victimhood while downplaying his antagonism, is being woobified. On the other hand what’s happening to Valentino is not that.
Both the show (and large parts of the fandom as a result) aren’t downplaying Valentino’s villainy and status as a rapist to make people feel sorry for him so that they’re more comfortable with liking his character. The way Valentino is presented as by the narrative is as this complete fucking moron with anger issues who has zero tact or impulse control; the audience is supposed to point and laugh at Val any time he is not directly (and I do mean ‘directly’) interacting with Angel Dust, which in turn lessens his negative impact without technically just straight up erasing it or pretending it doesn’t exist, and makes him more comfortable to handle and for people to like (or even to dismiss and to hate in some cases).
That phenomenon is not him being turned into a woobie though, that’s him being infantilized; it’s infantilization. No amount of adding layers and nuance to a character (especially if those layers are properly tackled) is going to lessen the impact of a villains’ negative influence on a narrative like making the audience laugh at them more often than they grow apprehensive of them will, and that’s exactly what the show did.
IE: Depict the idea that Valentino is a joke and (outside of his interactions with Angel) he’s practically harmless.
How I see it the show is simultaneously asking the audience ‘how bad could he really be, he’s such an idiot?’ and then showing us exactly how bad Valentino could be and expecting the us to just go back to laughing at him right afterwards now that the threat is not immediately in our faces anymore. EDIT: There’s also an implication - that parts of the fandom run with and the writers could maybe be actively showcasing - that Valentino is an undercover mastermind who’s actually smart, but the show itself doesn’t give enough hints at his “childishness” being an act he puts on for me to regard it as more than fans expanding upon the specs of Valentino’s character that they’ve been given to marry the two facets of his identity together and as more headcanon than canon.
With balance this doesn’t have to be an inherently bad thing, but I don’t feel that the show has that balance. Trying to soften the blow a depiction of a fictional rapist will likely have on an audience is not a horrible idea, but something about the way HH goes about it just doesn’t work for me and I cannot for the life of me directly articulate why. I feel the show just often misses the mark when it comes to deciding what about Val and the shit he does should be emphasized for comedic affect, what should be shown to the audience with relative neutrality, and when they should seriously emphasize him being a villain and a abuser/rapist.
From how I see it, Valentino needed more neutral scenes than he did comedic; for further understanding of my thought process his tantrum in “Radio Killed The Video Star” (s1ep2) is comedic (except for when he riles Vox up before the show goes right back to playing up Val’s anger for laughs), his inclusion and actions during the Vees’ meeting scene in s1ep2 is neutral (there’s subtle comedic elements to what he’s saying/doing but the audience isn’t meant to actively be laughing out loud or anything), and the scenes where he’s directly attacking angel (his meaner texts/voice messages to Angel, the dressing room scene in “Masquerade”, his appearances in “Poison”[♪], & when Val threatens then slaps Angel in “Welcom To Heaven”) are meant to showcase his menace without buffers. Less overtly comedic scenes would’ve just balanced him better I think, so there’s not this weird dichotomy of moments where Vox treats Valentino not like a non-threat but like a child having to be weighed against moments where Angel Dust is regarding Valentino like the Overlord is his personal boogieman who’s actually a threat to be taken seriously.
In general though, while some people do play up Valentino’s stupidity and incompetence in a bid to actively neutralize, undermine, or ignore his more violent tendencies for their own purposes (EDIT: sometimes for comedic value, sometimes to make him more palatable or more fun to play around with), the infantilization and further “dumbing down” of his character in fandom seems to mostly stem from an almost incessant need to make him as undesirable as possible even for a villain. It’s a phenomenon that I don’t really have a full explanation for, but for me it reads as a way to “diss” Valentino and the theoretical rapist that exists in many people’s heads that he represents. This isn’t a disavowing of that or anything either, it’s just something I’ve noticed that I don’t really have a name for but still find interesting.
I do think Valentino’s “dumbing down” in fandom has its drawbacks — making a character with such a medium level of influence like Valentino so stupid and impulsive he doesn’t even hide his crimes retroactively makes all the other characters around him seem uncharacteristically weaker for falling for him when he’s not even trying to hide how bad he is or how abusive he’d be, incompetent for not defeating him when he gets in their way even though some of these characters are both more powerful than him & not being manipulated by him, and uncaring since the characters he’s victimizing have someone who claims to care about them (or who’d at least have a vetted interest in the victim’s safety) that knows how bad Valentino is but just chooses not to do anything regardless as a result — but I’m pretty sure I understand where the desire comes from in general even if I personally don’t love it, so whatever.
Brought to you by me misconstruing the term “uwuify” with “woobify” so…..yeah. This post technically spawned from nothing but I did not want to put it to waste so here y’all go. This is kind of ordered wonky too, but fuck it.
Where I go way too deep into something that probably isn't that deep. It's long, it's long as hell.
Okay, so you'd think with how Adam talks he's just a typical misogynist, right?
This man worships pussy. So much so, he's named a whole ass angel, one of his best, Vagina. You'd say that he objectifies them and thinks of them as being lesser, but I don't think that's the whole story. In fact, I think he might be the original simp.
All of these exorcists so far have been women. All of them. He refers to them as ladies or bitches interchangeably, he sees them as being completely capable of absolutely decimating leagues of some of the most vile beings who have ever existed, and they have, to the point it was only after thousands of years that there's been a risk to this hierarchy.
He's a self-centered, egotistical, loud-mouthed, arrogant asshole, no doubt about it, but I'm beginning to suspect something now.
If Adam and Lilith were created from the same dust, if they were created as equals, I am more than willing to bet...
Lilith is also a self-centered, egotistical, arrogant asshole. But, she's likely far more intelligent, composed, and duplicitous.
Lilith was allowed to refuse Adam and leave of her own free will and garnered her own independence. A new wife was created for Adam, she was replaced. My guess, is she thought Adam wouldn't be able to live without her, to come back and find herself replaced entirely, she was enraged.
I believe both Adam and Lilith were both incredibly dominant individuals who fought over ideas, thoughts, and ultimately in the bedroom as well, if we take into account the creationist stories.
I'm willing to bet she likely manipulated Lucifer into twisting humanity against its original concept. What if Lucifer's intention truly was to just spark something within Eve, like independence and thought and creation, but it was Lilith's poison within the fruit that tainted her, then subsequently Adam, with sin.
Lilith thrived in hell, while Lucifer's dreams of creation were dashed. She didn't suffer as he did, instead the power of her voice grew with hell. Her voice grew so powerful that heaven found it to be a threat, her actions instigated the beginning of exterminations.
Charlie said that when she was a little girl, she didn't know Lucifer at all. I don't think this was because of Lucifer, he's seen here, picking her up, inviting her to share in his thoughts and dreams, showing her something wonderful. Something she could see within herself.
Charlie says that it's this moment that sparked her will to fight for her dreams. Which is strange, because at the very beginning of the story, Charlie says it was her mother's dream that was passed down to her.
Lilith took Charlie away. In this scene, Lucifer wasn't done showing Charlie his thoughts and dreams, he's still yearning to show his daughter these things at this point.
Lucifer loves his daughter. He loves Charlie so, so, so much. So why wasn't he allowed to build a relationship with his daughter for the longest time? He was waiting for the opportunity to get to know her, but with how much he adores her why didn't he do it sooner?
He didn't comment on 'It took you a while-' he just said he missed her smile.
They don't want to be pulled apart, again.
Now, we know Vivziepop has said that Lucifer and Lilith love each other, but Lilith 'wears the pants' in the relationship. We see all of the pictures all over the walls of a supposedly happy family.
I don't think the relationship was as loving as originally portrayed and Lilith is a woman who desires control above all else. She likely tried to mitigate what influence Lucifer had over their daughter when she thought his angelic thoughts and behaviors became more than what she approved of.
Lets take it back to Adam and Lute for a moment. Again, Adam is a loud mouthed idiot, he's a jerk. The moment he realizes there are demons in heaven, he's ready to go on the attack. It's only because of Lute that he didn't end up doing something absolutely idiotic.
I gotta say, Lute and Adam's relationship is an absolutely fascinating one. He's a disrespectful dick head in how he talks, but how he acts is a different story. He allows Lute to man-handle him. He does listen to her, even if he's a whiny bitch about it.
Look at him, this is the face of a man listening, a dumb one, but a dude listening all the same. He doesn't manhandle her back, he doesn't even pull away until she lets go of his collar. Of all the shit he complained about, between being grabbed and being told what to do, his biggest complaint is that she's telling him to shush.
We know that Adam is the one who suggested the exterminations to begin with, so Sera says, and this was because of the power that Lilith was amassing. To him, Lilith is a threat. Even when he was willing to move on, to go to another wife when Lilith didn't want him or want to submit to him (fair babe, he's a bit of an idiot), she came back with an angel and proceeded to manipulate his new wife Eve.
This is the supposed progenitor of man-kind, the original dick (hilariously enough), the reason civilization even exists at all. He and Eve had to fight for their lives after being tempted with the fruit. They had immortality, they had no ideas of shame, they were supposedly 'innocent' creatures before Lilith and Lucifer came along.
He and Eve had to fight tooth and nail to survive after being cast from Eden. I think it shows in how willing and ready he is to take lead and do what he believes needs to be done, now out of a need for entertainment rather than a need to defend or protect. But, he still stopped to listen to Lute's advice.
In the mythological story of Adam and Eve, Adam is the one who has to tell Eve that god said don't eat the fruit. Eve never heard god speak to her, so she was vulnerable to the snake's manipulations. She will now die because she ate it, and because she did not want Adam to take another wife, convinced him to eat it unknowingly. Funnily enough, Adam tried to explain to god that 'she lied to me and gave me the fruit' and in this actual mythology, Adam was punished for listening to his wife.
Even without mentioning Lilith in the original mythology, Eve didn't want Adam to take another wife, so when we consider it within the context of Hazbin Hotel, it may be likely that's how it went down. Eve knew of Lilith, knew that she could be replaced, and decided that she would take Adam with her.
I believe that Adam does and did rely on the women in his life to help him with direction. I think Adam knows he can be an idiot and is willing to listen, even if he doesn't agree with what he's hearing. He did listen to Charlie in the beginning, he just didn't believe in her, like everyone else and he, out of anyone there, probably had the most reason not to.
Cain and Abel were his and Eve's sons, his own child became the first murderer. Out of jealousy, the same kind of jealousy that no doubt has caused Lilith to act how she did.
Adam isn't going to have empathy for sinners. His family, his legacy, were filled with the original sinners. He probably had to kill his son Cain in hell during the first exterminations. What do you think he would have had to feel, if it came to be a fact that sinners could be redeemed? That maybe his son, could've been redeemed? Or any of his progeny for that matter? How did it feel when his sons, his progeny, weren't given the same mercy as the Hellborn that Lucifer managed to keep protected through some deal with the angels or god?
Not to mention that Charlie could've been his daughter. Charlie is the product of the people who completely and totally destroyed the paradise he'd been born into. She's the daughter who is protected and immune from the slaughter while all of his sons and daughters are judged and killed. I believe, even though he was a dickish prankster to Charlie, he was surprisingly patient and even somewhat amicable, willing to even ask her how her weekend was like he was just trying to get to know her.
Adam could just see all of the angels under his employ as being disposable. He doesn't have to name them, or think about them in any individual fashion. But, he knows Vaggie, recognized her instantly. Thought she was badass.
Lute's the one who saw her, tore her wings off, and walked away. I'm surprised they even let her live, because this just goes against everything they're doing. They're an army and they saw one of their own showing empathy to the enemy.
Look at this dumb ass. He's being a shit-head, a dick, a bastard. But, he admires Vaggie's ability to pull Charlie, congratulates her, this dude isn't even judging her for being a lesbian. I don't think it's because he objectifies women, this dude loves women, he just does. He respects fellow vagina lovers.
I don't think he respects liars in the slightest though. He's being underhanded, he's trying to be manipulative (he's not very good at it). I think he's brutally open and honest about everything and that's probably one of the reasons he's such a bastard anyways, because sometimes you just need to shut-up and he's not good at that.
I don't think he respects Sera for that either, he's more than willing to let others know what the hell he's doing, but under Sera's lead, he can't be open about it. I don't think it's his jam to act this way, it's why he sucks so bad at it and I think that's why Lilith is so antithetical to him. I also think that's why he's possibly even being manipulated.
It's kind of crazy that Adam is the only one who tries to come up with what allows someone to get into heaven. So here's his list:
1. Act Selfless: Maybe at one point he was! He had to have been, to be one of the progenitors of mankind, he would have had to work, sacrifice, and give to his wife and children for them all to survive. Eve would have had to do the same, no doubt. He may not seem selfless, due to his raunchy behavior, but he's served heaven since he's been there. He's served humanity in some kind of facet.
2. Don't Steal: Considering the only other humans are his spawn, he likely had to try and get them to not steal from one another for them all to have an equal opportunity of survival. He and Eve likely both knew they would need to work together to survive.
3. Stick it to the man: This, however, is interesting. Who is 'The Man' he speaks of? God? The only other people over him or were equal to him were women. He speaks like a rocker, and I think in this case he's using the term 'The Man' in a gender neutral way. I think he allowed some amount of Authority to Lilith when they were supposed to be seen as equals, it comes so naturally to him as a character when it comes to the other women he's been interacting with. I think she is the 'man' that he's been sticking it to- Pun somewhat intended.
((This third one may also simply be a tongue in cheek reference to when Alex Brightman played Dewey in School of Rock on Broadway! Thank you to the user who brought this to my attention!))
Adam is a bit of a hypocrite, isn't he? He likes to fuck, he's made that abundantly clear. Full of lust you could say. It was his original purpose after all, and he is judging Angel Dust for something he probably would've done himself at one point or has considered doing (maybe not the having sex with men part). Angel Dust does all of these things, Adam doesn't even deny it. He even looks nervous. He's angry, but doesn't deny that Angel has done those things. He doesn't explain it away or try to lie or move the goal posts, he's just asking what is an actually very valid question.
Why isn't Angel Dust there if he can do things equal to what Adam himself hasn't done? Serenity continues that line of thought. It isn't until Charlie is realizing no one knows what it takes to get into heaven.
Adam is more than willing to let Lute take the lead here, he's willing to give her the stage to clap back, he's giving her back-up antics. By all means, they could be pushing and fighting one another, there could easily be body language expressing something other than their general comfort around one another. They aren't fighting for a spotlight like you'd expect Adam to try and do considering his egotistical attitude.
Adam fucking sucks at keeping his mouth shut and he sucks at lying. He nearly blew the secret out of the bag once, this time, Sera is the only one who tries to stop him and to be honest? Lute looks a bit too thrilled at it. He knows he fucked up, but he doesn't think it's a big deal that anyone would know. For fucks sake, they've already condemned souls, his progeny, to suffer. What's the big deal if he kills them?
I have to re-iterate what's happening here. Charlie is proud she caused this chaos, that she caused these angels to fight amongst themselves, even if in this case it's a good thing. But, this is like history repeating itself to Adam, the reflection of his ex-wife, entering his domain, causing strife among his people, being happy about it.
And the venom he expresses when it comes to the 'liar' portion, god Alex Brightman destroyed when he got to this portion specifically. There is some vehement disgust in his tone when he says liar.
Adam isn't a good person now. But, I think he used to be a good person. By all means, Adam himself could've been the first murderer when his wife made her mistake. He, at one point in time, had to have been good enough to foster civilization itself with Eve. Both good and bad.
Adam's original purpose was to be fruitful and multiply. Ordained by god (or maybe just angels) himself, divine power directed and created him to fuck. He didn't chase his ex-wife down, he was given a new one, Lilith was allowed to leave. When he left things alone, when he tried to move on, his ex-wife and a scorned angel destroyed the paradise he was in with Eve. He had to struggle and toil, he had to feel shame in his own body. He had to find out his first born son was the first murderer. His second son killed. We don't know if this is going to be canon in the story, a lot has changed, and if Adam is the first soul who reached heaven, then what did happen to Abel? Was Abel considered a sinner? Or did Cain kill Abel after Adam had passed?
Either way, he had to witness his children kill, he had to watch his descendants behave in a range from saints and monsters. He's seen genocides, he's seen famine, war. Adam is desensitized to the plights of his descendants. Maybe he even saw it as a duty to cleanse the universe of their existence at one point, because they were his responsibility.
At the end of this episode, he is properly scolded by Sera and does seem ashamed of himself. He isn't huffy, he is reminded that he should be ashamed of acting that way.
I love Lute's enthusiasm, she's absolutely brutal when talking about Vaggie and with how she handled Vaggie. I think it's funny that Lute is so brutal she's even made Adam uncomfortable.
It's cute that he's made uncomfortable by the excitement and all he does is tell Lute, the premier hype woman over here, to chill. She's so proud of herself too, look at her.
He fully expects these exorcist bad bitches to go in there and fuck shit up. But, you know it's hilarious that he's throwing horns? This dude, this angel. First human soul in heaven, loving rock n' roll, the devil's music, and throwing motherfucking horns. It's poetic really. I think we can probably assume where things are going.
Now, this is the first point we've seen Adam being a real piece of shit to Lute. I don't think Adam likes it when people think he's too dumb to notice something, especially something so damn obvious. This is such a drastic moment of vitriolic, uncontrolled anger directed towards Lute.
Adam knows he isn't the brightest tool in the shed. He likely knows he's obtuse and misses shit. It's why he sucks at lying, he knows he's not smart. That is why I think he's afforded women opportunities to direct him without fighting back against their advice and their choices. I'm sure Lilith made it obvious how dumb she thinks Adam is. I'm wondering if this might be where their ground breaking fight might've come from. Who's to say he didn't allow Lilith to take the lead, or listen to her like he's done with Lute here and now? Perhaps to an even greater point? He listened to Eve and ate from the fruit of knowledge and he was punished for it. Being seen as so dumb he can't formulate a simple fact is a sore spot for him.
Adam is incredibly powerful. It took a bit out of him to exercise that power, probably because he's out of practice just like Lucifer said. At one point, he probably wasn't so sloppy and weak willed. He's gotten lazy. Sloth like.
I think it got real personal here. How viscerally and personally he attacked Charlie. No one but Charlie truly thought sinners could be redeemed, or that they were even worth it. Not even one of the original sinners. Maybe he never considered the possibility, maybe what happened really did make him see the world as black and white to cope with that happened to him, his wife, his children.
Charlie's desire to fight this idea would destroy the foundation for all of his coping through the years. He stopped seeing them as family, even though he's grandiose about his founding role in humanity. Does that itch the guilt that may lurk under the surface?
I don't think Adam thought much of Charlie at all. I don't think he had any intention of coming to kill her in the beginning, despite seeing her, despite who her parents were.
But, I think with the constant push, with how eager she was to disrupt the pre-conceived idea of order, it reminded Adam and reflected her parents so much, he was eager to kill her for revenge against them. I think this electrical interference on the mask is a direct reflection of sin. Namely, wrath, in this moment.
Now, this. THIS. Is something that made me want to write this whole fucking essay. Is Lucifer implying that he not only gave Eve the Fruit from the tree of knowledge, but FUCKED HER TOO? Homies, I'm sorry but holy shit. That is some hydrating tea. I'd be pretty pissed too, fucked over twice by women who were supposed to be literal soul mates, who you were made for, who were made for you?
I knew he would have a goatee, I could almost hear it. I gotta say, I'm a sucker for how he looks. I think he's hot. He is a bastard, but so are a lot of the hot dudes in this show. It's just a theme.
This exact series of lines prompted so many of the thoughts that I had about Adam and why he thinks or acts the way he does. At one point, Adam did have to work himself to the bone and learn to survive from scratch alongside Eve. He isn't entirely without cause to not think that he deserves some respect or recognition from his descendants.
But, that doesn't give him the right to act like god himself. It's... well... Blasphemous. Isn't it? One of the worst sins is to think yourself to be worthy of worship, as if you're a god.
This is the moment that gave me empathy for them both. You could probably see the kind of loving person Adam could have been at one point with how he looks at Lute, even as he's laying there, dying. He's not crying like a bitch, just looking at Lute softly. Lute screaming for him, screaming his name. They cared for each other deeply.
And this... and this.... and this.
WHAT DEAL DID YOU MAKE, LILITH?
Did you make it with Sera? Did you make it with Adam? Did you make it with Lute? Did you really just want a little 'vacay' away from the hell you helped create?
Left her husband, depressed and lonely. Left her daughter without any care or guidance. Maybe Alastor was sent in her place, perhaps? Seven years since he was seen after all, but why wouldn't he show up sooner if Lilith did care?
Did she make a deal with Lute and Adam? Did she let Adam smash it so she could stay in heaven? Did Lute let her stay in exchange for getting Adam out of a position of power? Or was it maybe Sera who commissioned Lilith with a deal?
Either way, I'm in full belief that it wasn't Adam's idea to move the extermination day up. I think he's a patsy, a scapegoat. I think Lute may have been manipulated, potentially, into manipulating Adam into this position. Was it even really Adam who came up with the idea to do the exterminations? Or was he the one who simply decided to fight originally because he was told heaven was at risk due to Lilith's rising power?
The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions. I think it could be any number of these.
Either way, Lute certainly does think she had authority over Lilith. Is it Lute just having hubris? Or is Lilith truly bound, just like Alastor, Husk, and Angel Dust?
Of course, now that we know a soul can be redeemed... and we certainly know that angels can fall. I don't think this will be the last we see of Adam.
I genuinely wanna know more about Vox's relationship to Angel. Him and Angel probably have the biggest ties to Valentino (Yes there's Velvette and I don't want to dismiss her but she's not with Val like how these two are) These are super small moments but I think it says quite a bit. Vox has probably seen Val treat Angel in both extremes: Domineering and just fucked up all around but also just completely fawning over him too (well more accurately love bombing) Regardless of how he treats Angel though, clearly Val's attention and focus is always gonna be on him. It'd make sense that he'd be irritated and jealous of Angel getting that attention, especially seeing those moments of lovebombing, like with Valentino giving Angel Fat Nuggets
He's probably used to Val practically ignoring him in favor of Angel. He's heard Val rant and rave about Angel so much he just checks his phone out of pure boredom hearing it again. Then he practically perks up and only focuses on the conversation when it sounds like Angel quit. Now in the song Poison, it's such an easy to miss moment but Vox practically goes on a face journey here:
It starts off with him and Val having a nice time, talking about...something. Then he notices Angel in the corner of his eye, his mood just seems to drop a little bit. He practically sighs in frustration. I can just see him sarcastically thinking "Oh great it's him." Valentino notices Angel too and Vox here almost looks resigned and irritated. He just knows whatever this moment they were having together is now over 'cause Val literally has his eyes set on Angel. This look he gives Valentino right before he leaves just kinda reads as "Seriously?!"
Like does he not like Angel or is he more frustrated at Val in this situation?
I don’t really subscribe to the idea that Valentino is more powerful than Vox - more outwardly aggressive sure, but those things aren’t synonymous.
It’s just— Vox is essentially all of capitalism banged into one competent mess of a man. In comparison Valentino only has dominion over a portion of what Vox does, and while I think all of the Vees feed off of one another, at the end of the day both Valentino and Velvette are still blanketed under Vox’s influence. They’re parts of his machine no matter that they have the most power within it over everyone but Vox himself.
I do think that from a certain “average sinner” perspective a lot of people would assume that Valentino is the main aggressor due to how publicly antagonistic he acts (because he usually is - and because Vox’s image can’t be too rough or else he won’t be able to gain the masses’ trust in order to manipulate them) but while Valentino physically domineers nearly every character we see or hear him come into contact with he’s only able to truly rile Vox up once, and it’s mentally. He also doesn’t dominate Vox when he sends him spiraling by dropping the news of Alastor being back the way he does, he only manipulates him. So Val is far from powerless in their dynamic but he’s not easily more powerful than Vox, he himself can barely pivot Vox’s priorities on his own without giving the overgrown tv outside incentive.
The Vees’ power dynamics and ingrained feedback loop is so interesting to me. I just wanna naw on it all day. Also want to point out that Valentino never dominates Velvette either; he does piss her off and he does pivot her slightly by proxy due to pivoting Vox, for one, but also by presumably forcing her to change up her show since he tore up her lead model just because he was in a mood.
I was watching reactions videos to the show again and fuck me, I completely forgot that not only Vox used Pentious to spy on the hotel, he also quite literally told him to kys when he was found out. Not before mocking him relentlessly for being found out.
Like, this man literally told a man that, he brought the "lowest earners of the month" just so Valentino could shoot them, he took advantage of the panic over the extermination for some bullshit product that didn't even exist then (and probably still don´t) and I have no fucking doubt in my mind that every single Vox product is made to fail at the first years just so you have to keep buying more of it.
I know that he is funny and ultimately he is more level headed than Valentino, but just by watching the show alone is very obvious that he IS a manipulative son of a bitch that will sell his own mother at the first chance he has.
I am just really glad that he found someone just as awful as him, just in a different way, in Valentino because truly that is a blessing for the rest of hell lol
What IF Vox and Valentino don't "fight all the time"?
The evidence we have from the show does suggest Valentino is "hot-headed" but there's no implication of him being mad AT Vox; it's always one "w**re" or another. On the contrary, Vox is shown to be an effectively placatory presence for Valentino — "waiting for a flat-faced prince to calm him down".
Where tf do people get the idea that they fight, when it's actually Valentino being the "pissbaby" he is, throwing temper tantrums because he's too proud to just dial up Vox and ask him to hear him yap? Yes, I understand the pre-canon interpretations but people should really flush those down a drain now that the canon is out. And if they still can't get over it, they should use "AU" in the tag. Mischaracterization kills characters, and makes viewers question their own interpretation just because previous fans cannot get over their obstinate hyperfixations.
The part where Valentino was throwing the drink at Vox and then flung his phone against the wall were probably the most that he did — and these pale in comparison to what he did to Angel. Valentino knows he can't treat Vox any less than another Overlord. Alternatively, Vox doesn't hesitate to physically drag down Valentino and raise his voice at him...TWICE. What's your reasoning that Vox doesn't have the upper hand in their relationship?
Most importantly, we must pay attention to the reasons for their lashing out. It's a climatic moment: Angel has found a place to which neither Val or Vox's powers extend, and Alastor is back — and they're both associated with the princess of all of Hell, Charlie Morningstar ! Valentino and Vox aren't fighting, at least not with EACH OTHER. They are mad because their authority is soon to be questioned and they don't like it.
So what do they do? Valentino does the unhealthy equivalent of opening up to your s/o; he's telling Vox why he's mad while emphasizing it with his actions cuz he's still a bad guy, obviously. Vox maintains his calm for the "image" of the Vees, but is upset that Valentino didn't inform him sooner and then proceeds to do what he just prevented Val from doing — ruining their image.
Apart from this, Vox and Val have proven themselves to be straight up comfortable and decent around each other. Vox treats Valentino like a gentleman and is supportive of his suggestions — for example, when he agrees to Val's advice that they should "get someone inside" Alastor, in itself a wildly stupid idea. On the other hand, Valentino listens to Vox and seems to genuinely want to spent more time with him without appearing too desperate.
Edit: Additionally, Valentino says "Oh, you know me too well" to Vox right after he allows Val to shoot down their lowest paid earners, which, together with Vox's sly grin, directly shows just how intimately they understand each other. And if mutual understanding isn't crucial in a typical healthy relationship, consider me resigned.
What I noticed here is people assume they're being fake to manipulate each other. While that is a probability, it's worth considering that Vox flashed a fake-er smile to the news audience than he did at Val: his promises to them were also hollow, while to Val they were more concrete.
Hence, we see them sing along and dance harmoniously in the finale. This is what the show's trying to achieve.
Because Val is implied to own the most souls between the Vees, I thought maybe Vox had approached him before he (Vox) had become an Overlord and when they As if Vox had trouble gaining enough power on his own for some reason and tried to partner up with someone who was already more established. His first choice was Alastor, but he wasn't interested in anything Vox could provide, so he was forced to find someone who would be more receptive of what he had to offer.
But would Val agree to this? I feel like he wouldn't consider someone less powerful than him (maybe Vox was just that hot). (Though of course there's also Velvette who somehow managed to impress both of them later on)
Maybe it would make more sense if they both were still working on it and pooled their resources together to get the position? (The Vees seem to operate as a singular entity (as if they're just one Overlord instead of 3), so this might not be out of the question. Though maybe I'm operating on incorrect assumptions about what being an Overlord means technically. But even if it's not just the souls, combining power and influence is just as good)
Or maybe they were already both Overlords in their own right and just joined forces to strengthen their positions? (Though this option feels a bit boring)
What I understand from the Vees is that they know one thing or two about working together and supporting one another. Even in the Overlords' meeting scene, we can see Zestial and Carmilla, Zestial and Alastor, Alastor and Rosie, Carmilla and her daughters — they have s strong relationship based on friendship, trust or even love, unique to every relationship.
The Vees do just that. Of course, they're still proud people - but birds of a feather flock together, and they'd rather turn their noses up at the other Overlords TOGETHER than be challenged to do that ALONE with less of a chance of proving themselves.
I think it is quite clear, however, that the Vees work independently. Albeit, it's more convenient for them to work together to mutually benefit one another than steal all the fame because that might not work in the long term. Alliances are a thing, why not take advantage of it? In the end, they don't have to feel indebted to one another or overshadowed by the other Overlords.
About who came to power first: definitely Vox did, as he arrived at least 20 years earlier than Val. I like to think he was quite established by the time Val was growing influential, and when he couldn't convince Alastor to team up, he sought for the next best thing, like on a "Fine I'll do it myself and you WILL regret ever rejecting me" sort of petty incentive.
And why not talk about how Pornography and Social Media necessitate the widespread use of technology? And while we're on it, why not talk about the potential of Alastor, if conditionally he signed up to the Vees, as being something of a spokesman for them? Vox has his hypnosis, but coupled with Alastor's voice, they could rake in more viewers - more fame, more money, more power!
The idea of the Vees might just be to present themselves as a unified single body, capable of so, so much more all together than the solitary Overlords.
I can’t hold this in anymore dude I’m actually going crazy…
I love love LOVE Vox, he’s so me, love him so much. But Valentino? I HATE HIM. I hate that guy I want him dead. I want him dead right now!!!! I actually cannot stand Staticmoth, yeah okay it is canon.
But not in my mind.
In my crazy yapped brain, Vox is NOT in love with Val, in my brain, Vox does all this stuff with Val for views.
BECAUSE THINK OF IT DUDE… What gets more views than a scandalous little romance, what gets more attention that two MEN kissing on live TV?
Probably a lot of things BUT STICK WITH ME HERE. STICK WITH ME HERE 🗣️🗣️🗣️‼️‼️‼️
I love Vox (and Velvette) and HATE Val..
Anyway that’s all, it’s 00:40 and my dog is BARKING at nothing, he’s such a crazy old guy!
I think more and more of hazbin Hotel fans should state their opinions and perspectives on the characters present within the show in the same fashion as you have. We can see that while you respect the canon characterization, you're not comfortable with it / it doesn't make sense to you. WHICH IS FINE.
Hating Valentino is obvious. Even his most dedicated fans hate him. Don't worry.
I can see how the hate extends to staticmoth, like shipping a character that's innocent in your eyes with the one who makes you want to rip your eyes off.
To be honest, we've just watched season 1 so there's potential character background to be achieved still in season 2. With the way Vivienne seems to treat Staticmoth, I think there's a lot of clout to be uncovered on Vox's end - UNTIL THAT I believe fans are free to assume whatever.
While I disagree that the Vees stream voxval moments live for gains... you might be onto something. That is an excellent alternative fanon interpretation that doesn't hurt anyone nor does it absolve Vox's crimes.
As a full-time voxval-got-my-brain fan, you got my support, pal. Go sleep. Have a nice day.
So in my “will-i-won’t-i” with Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss (where I procrastinate and don’t watch the shows and only absorb the content through TikTok, Tumblr and sometimes Twitter) I came across Staticmoth/ VoxVal.
I saw the scene with Angel and Valentino. His abuse and disgusting behavior. I have an idea on how this moth asshole behaves.
And I have seen some people think that their relationship would be toxic, that Vox and Val, if the predictions are correct and become (or are revealed to be) a couple, would beat the shit (physically, mentally and emotionally) out of each other on the regular, but I think the idea that him and Vox having a healthy relationship could be such a punch to the gut plot wise.
Because that would mean Valentino IS capable of understanding consent. He KNOWS what working with someone else means without disrespect. He FULLY knows what sex is supposed to be like.
But that’s is between equals. Vox? His equal. Fellow overlord.
Angel? His property. Why would he give a shit about his thing?
wouldn't it be uniquely awful if voxval turns out to be healthy. if he and vox cuddle, if they do aftercare, if they genuinely look out for each other. wouldn't it be especially painful for angel to see val being warm & happy & doting with vox immediately after forcing angel to work sixteen hours straight in the studio with no breaks. if we see more scenes like the end of poison, where angel is miserable and traumatized and then he looks out over the balcony and sees voxval tenderly holding hands. if we have to struggle with the painful reality that all too often, someone can be both a violent abuser and a caring boyfriend, and neither one negates the other
I am in love with the idea of Simon being a pessimist, apathetic, awkward, and everything but the soft sweet baby the fandom makes him out to be. I kinda feel the fandom made up Simon being this sweet non-conflicting baby mostly because he's yt and has a softer appearance than Josh. Like why must soft appearance mean soft person? To me, Simon seems gloomy, glum, and apathetic and probably insecure. But he's a good listener, empathetic at times, he's understanding, he's honest and loyal. That's the Simon that's intriguing rather than just soft baby who at worst is awkward.
In terms of Simon being seen as a sweet baby, nothing is wrong with seeing him as that hell I don’t mind it but it feels like there’s not much depth and or much beneath that sweetness and sadness. For example, one thing I love about North’s character is how she’s not just sad because she was basically a slave her entire existence, there’s anger, there’s sadness, there’s layers to her trauma. Yes, it’s never explained who or what Simon was running from or even his past but I feel it doesn’t do him justice to just portray sadness, I don’t mind anxiety at all but sadness or depression is more than just being sad.
To me, Simon would often have days on end in which he doesn’t move, doesn’t think, he just shuts down for days on end and will often neglect himself and his needs. To me, he would exhibit symptoms of having bipolar disorder, high highs and low lows, mania, hyperactivity, and more. I would like to see him perhaps be given more depth to his sadness, give me anger, show us an angry simon who’s hopeless and bitter because of his experiences. I do like to believe that Simon does try to be calm and does try to keep the peace but I still believe that Josh is the most peaceful or pacifist member of Jericho. I imagine all of them have their moments in which they simply snap, I don’t think Simon is any different. Like give me arguments between him and Markus, Simon has low self-worth and half the time doesn’t believe he deserves Markus, he deals with dark thoughts all time that he’s simply kept bottled up as he’s fearful of how people he cares about will react. If they’ll hate him, if they’ll treat him like he’s a monster.
Give me a Simon who is going through mania or even after his manic episode, he doesn’t believe he’s worth all the trouble that Markus and the group goes through for him. To me, Simon is someone who feels things deeply but he keeps it in due to fear and past experiences, he’s someone who rather hide his emotions, hide the pain, and put on a face of apathy than to truly open up. Another way I would contrast him and North, she’s willing to open up, she will reopen those wounds time and time again with the chance of being hurt whilst Simon rather hide his pain, those wounds, and suffer silently than to risk being hurt even more.
So yeah give Simon more depth please especially when you give him things like anxiety, depression, and overall just let Simon experience a wide variety of emotions and push him to his limits. Same with the others as well but especially Simon.
Hc that domestic android models are equipped with the same analytical taste feature that the RK models are, but instead of using it for crime scenes, they use it for cooking. It's especially useful for detecting certain allergens or gluten or dairy in food, in case someone has dietary restrictions due to illnesses or allergies.
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