One Hundred Arms Grasping In The Dark

She/her | Blog for rambling

[formlessnight]

I feel like a lot of people in the Deltarune fandom don’t fully get Asgore. But im mostly talking about the people expecting some form of cathartic “crash out” from him in chapter 4.

I like Asgore as a character, but what i like about him is his blatant flaws. Toriel at the end of Undertale pacifist is right about Asgore in the sense that he’s prone to falling into stagnation easily, often not very good when it comes to being proactive. Its why he waits for humans to fall down in Undertale and waits at the edge of barrier instead of seeking them out or even crossing the barrier as soon as he had one soul, Its even why in genocide he doesn’t take the other souls to stop you, its why Toriel is right that he didn’t want another human to come, that he couldn’t handle the idea of being free from the Underground.

Its clear he cant really handle change, and while he can be a good guy, he’s not completely morally bankrupt or anything, he has a good heart, he’s also kinda a bad leader when it comes to anything but Morale. In Undertale (and in Deltarune) the people around him ultimately suffer from his stubbornness whether he intends it or not.

The same is true of his situation in Deltarune, he’s become stagnant and stuck in the past because he cant move forward at all. Not all, but honestly most of his current situation is self caused, he’s stuck in his own way. I think the prophecy panel reflects this “the flower man trapped in asylum”. While Asylum is often associated with a mental hospital, more broadly it means a place safety. In that sense Asgore is trapped in the safety of stagnation, the reliability of the past he wont move forward from.

Its probably why his relationship with Toriel fell apart, its why he doesn’t seem to have a relationship with Kris (since that itself would require adapting to his new situation), its why he cant get back on his feet at all.

And him harassing Toriel is some rough shit, I hate watching that, i want him to improve, i believe he can, but his improvement is all self-involved. Nobody has really done this to him, theres nobody to crash out at. He just needs to see that its time to move forward, that it has been for a long time.

And again Asgore has redeeming qualities, this isn’t Asgore slander, but to really appreciate Asgore as a character is to appreciate his flaws, not ignore them.

[formlessnight]

I’ve not seen anyone else talk about the idea that the voice in the code which messed with Kingers attempts to reset Caine and caused him to delete Caine instead might’ve been Scratch.

Not only is the other identified as $ or an S as its username but it seemingly tries to refer to Kinger by his real name, something Scratch would know. It would also make sense for Scratch to want to delete Caine, since Caine messed with his plans for the other AI and the entire program in general seemingly.

Obviously Scratch abstracted but based on the context in which Kinger brings up Scratch as the first abstraction in episode 7, it seems like something was unique about it. He brings it up in the response to Caine saying that if he did more to the humans minds than add temporary modifiers that it “wouldn’t end well”.

Maybe Caine DID try on Scratch, and more than just abstracting regularly, he got trapped in the code itself, or became a part of it, or something similar. At the very least maybe he didn’t have the access himself to delete Caine, so needed to trick Kinger.

The personality of other voice in the code is quite malicious, obvious on it trying to get Caine deleted. Maybe some part of Scratch was always like this, maybe through abstraction itself or Caine messing with his mind he went more crazy.

Maybe if Scratch did abstract physically but can still access the code somewhat, he wants out of the basement where Caine banishes the abstractions, and knows by deleting him he’ll be free from there at least.

Idk, that was just my first thought watching through the episode.

[formlessnight]

Maybe the real reason Caine didn’t want NPC’s to exist outside their allotted adventures was because he was afraid if they got too sapient and existed too long they could potentially overpower him and even usurp/absorb him the way he did to the blue AI in his origins.

I mean, as the “Able” npc in episode 7 asks for a raise from Caine, Caine even says “oh you’re getting too smart, time to delete” hmmmmmmmm

This is my first digital circus post on here but i feel like im onto somethin

[formlessnight]

The only two types of deltarune theory that exist are ones which make sense if you forget that Deltarune is meant to be a satisfying and compelling narrative, and ones which are narratively satisfying if you forget all established characterisation and setup.

Almost every bad theory I see about the Knight is the first kind, almost every bad theory I see about Ralsei is the second kind. Thank you.

[formlessnight]

if the Deltarune community has shown anything its that if Undertale released slowly in chapters Sans is Ness is the exact type of insane theory that would be seriously discussed in a not insignificant part of the theory community.

[formlessnight]

I’ve touched on it before a little, but im really not a fan of the idea that the Knight is Dess but soulless. And its just become so invasive, i see it everywhere.

Mostly I just think its kinda boring and basic. The reason Flowey worked as a compelling villain was that despite being soulless he wasn’t some empty monster who was cruel and selfish because “thats what being soulless does”

He couldn’t feel but it was clear he still could care, maybe not on a fully. emotional level but he could still try in spite of that. I think what we see in the cut Alarm clock dialogue shows that pretty well.

On top of that he didn’t become the way he did just because he was soulless, he tells us about the first loop where he was just scared and confused at what was happening and how empty he felt. But being soulless on top of being in an endless no-consequence time loop situation, plus the trauma of having just lost his best friend to a brutal death before quickly dying a brutal death himself (both of which clearly effected him since a lot of his motivation in the game is based on thinking Frisk is Chara)

I mean he literally ends the first loop taking his own life, he doesn’t know at that point that would reset him. We don’t even know how long he spent looping no consequence before doing anything bad. Before becoming who we see.

Flowey was a really interesting and compelling character who I love, not the least of which is because of the way his character challenges the idea of being soulless as something which makes you an instantly cruel and uncaring irredeemable monster, something a lot of media does.

So i find the notion that Dess as the knight must be soulless kinda sucks ass, the specific way its parroted is used as basically a stand in for compelling motivation. The Knight is doing all that bad stuff because being soulless makes you a chaotic selfish monster who does not care about anything or anyone.

Its not just boring it throws out everything Undertale says through Flowey.

Dess isn’t in a time-loop- i guess she could be, but that would be complete speculation at this point- so it just doesnt make nearly as much sense as it did for Flowey as a character.

This is in the same vein as people acting like Kris and the Knight’s goal is to start the Roaring. Its not, i’ve made a post about this but if they wanted to they could do it whenever they wanted, anytime, starting the roaring is easy, it takes like 3 or 4 fountains and the Knight is clearly capable of making them quickly.

Is it so impossible to imagine, that Toby “has never written a pure evil character even once” Fox might intend for the Knights goal to be more than just some evil scheme? The game even tries to get you to think about it in chapter 4 when Gerson gets Susie to consider why she might think the Knight does what they do. Its clearly done in a pointed way.

Idk I’m just frustrated, I want the Knight to be a interesting and complex character. I get that we don’t have a lot to go off right now for their goal so its easy to resort to assuming its just something basic and evil. But I would personally not love that, i want a character.

[formlessnight]

I do wonder why Kris cant do magic in Deltarune, it doesn’t really make sense.

Time and time again i see it, “Monsters can do magic, humans cant” but people ignore two things when they parrot that from Undertale.

For one, monsters CANT do magic in Deltarune, its pretty clear at this point that magic doesn’t exist for monsters like it did in Undertale. Monsters aren’t spellcasters here, not in the lightworld, there no healing magic or rude busters for Susie, no ice magic for Noelle, not a single instance of magic cast or mentioned. It exists only in the darkworld, a place formed of imagination, so magic can be real.

And for two, as revealed officially in the Undertale anniversary stream, Humans can do magic. The only reason Undertale humans couldn’t was because they lost the ability forming the barrier, a thing that really doesn’t seem to have happened in Deltarune.

So there isn’t really any good reason why its the case that Kris cant do magic, in the Darkworld, human or monster shouldn’t really matter since the magic comes from the nature of Darkworlds not the species you are. Nor should Kris being human limit them in this world to begin with.

I have actually seen some good theories as to why, but I still feel like it should be more discussed. The way Human magic was explained to us in the tenth anniversary stream feels almost deliberately placed to draw attention to that inconstancy in Deltarune, especially since it was Gerson who said it.

Really, i just want more people speculating about this, it feels so interesting to think about. Especially in context of Kris’ room in chapter 2, where we see they searched up “how to do magic” at some point, maybe recently? Maybe not?

Again, just feels like our attention is being directed towards Kris’s inability to cast magic in Darkworlds.

[formlessnight]

I want there to be a scene- maybe after Susie learns the truth about what Kris is doing and also that another force has been partly controlling them as they became friends- in which Kris rips the soul out in front of Susie and says something to Susie we never get to hear or know. Something shared just between them, similar to Ralsei to Kris during the cutaway scenes. Or something like how Noelle in the spamton sweepstakes describes a previous encounter between Kris and Susie where Kris says something that unnerved her but Noelle couldn’t hear it.

This isn’t a theory, just something I crave personally. I think any amens or explanation Kris makes to Susie should start with that, the ability to say something just as themself, just to her.

And i mean, while its not meant as a theory, i’ve pointed out how many of Kris’ most important conversations seem to happen away from our/others ability to hear them. Wouldn’t be unexpected for it to happen again here, so i have hope. But in the end I’m just a sucker for narrative moments too personal and intimate to be shared with the audience.

[formlessnight]

Im not personally for the whole “entering a dark world without a soul turns you into something like the Knight” theory going around.

But one thing I do kinda find fun about it is that it implies Dess is soulless, and “child disappears from community suddenly leaving them to mourn only to return as a strange soulless creature causing havoc and chaos” is pretty much beat for beat what happened to Asriel in Undertale.

That is a part of why I don’t think it would be the case, but you could easily make the argument for it being proof for it instead. I dunno.

[formlessnight]

I have seen a bunch of people under the impression that the Knight and Kris (and Carol and whoever else i guess) are working with the goal of trying to end the world and trying to start the roaring.

But like, they aren’t though, obviously.

This doesn’t even need to be a lengthy theory, if they wanted to start the roaring they could do it whenever, seems like making enough fountains does the trick. There is no reason if they wanted to, that Kris or the Knight couldn’t just make a fuck ton at once, anyone can make one, whenever, its shown to be absurdly easy.

There is no fountain limit, no reason the knight would only be making 1 single fountain everyday. They made 3 in chapter 4 alone. In the span of 1 afternoon. They were shown to be able to channel them through multiple of their blades at once to make the big one.

I know the knight making the Titan in chapter 4 is also absurd if they dont want to cause the roaring, but its difficult to say, its possible the Knight was aware that the group could beat the Titan, that the soul could be used to seal it away.

The motivations of Kris and the Knight are obviously vague at the moment. But it just makes no sense that they want the end of the world, why even bother with all the other shit they are doing? The world of deltarune is genuinely one of the easiest to destroy of any fictional world, you just stab the ground a couple of times and the world is done. Berdly almost does it by accident. Berdly.

Do i know why the Knight and Kris do what they do? Fuck no, no clue. Could make some guesses but we don’t have a lot to go off. But it cannot be their current acting goal. It would be too stupid.

[formlessnight]

I think its strange more people don’t talk about the beggining moments of chapter 4.

Kris and Susie standing at the fountain is fairly usual, but the cutting to Kris waking up is extremely odd for Deltarune. If you consider the player that is.

For one, that kind of narrative jump is absent outside of the time spent between chapters.

Second, that we don’t actually see the Dark fountain getting sealed away at all, it implies that Kris did it themself, with the Soul sure, but without our presence. Which has interesting implications for the nature of those powers.

Ive mentioned elsewhere that i think it factors into my theory that the Light powers belong to Kris originally. But even if you don’t think that, it shows Kris can utilise them even without us actually present to control them.

Its just a very odd moment, obviously chapter 4 is full of those, but considering its the first fountain we don’t see sealed, it should stick out more.

[formlessnight]

Theres something to the fact that Toby was hesitant to put save points in the light world for chapter 4 initially, only relenting when playtesters said the light world section needed them.

Plus the way they seem so faded in the light world, still not really there. It makes it seem like Toby originally wanted them only in the darkworld for some diegetic reason, theres an implication there that they only exist in the dark.

But paired with that idea, the text at the first save point “at times you see it flickering. The light only you can see. By second nature you reach out and…” which implies Kris may have seen the save points before is especially interesting. As though despite being the intro to the darkworlds in the game, it isn’t their first time in one.

[formlessnight]

I think an interesting and unexplored aspect of Ralsei’s attitude towards the role of darkners as serving and generally being less important than lightners is that it doesn’t seem to be backed up by the Prophecy itself.

The prophecy at every turn puts focus on the dark as well as light, the idea that both worlds are important, are in need of saving, and it presents none of the idea of darkners being less real or significant as lightners, in fact it makes no clear distinction between who is what in that regard. Even in Ralseis version of the prophecy, he ends it with “Only then will the world be saved” where the actual prohecy we see ends “Only then will the worlds be saved” worlds plural. Light and Dark both.

It makes me wonder where Ralsei got this image of Darkners from, why he is so obsessed and conflicted over them as being only made to serve and being less real? Is it something he came up with himself? Based on what he knows of Darkner origins as objects in the lightworld? No other darkner we’ve seen is afraid to have feelings or thinks that their feelings don’t matter. Often quite the opposite.

Who did this to you Ralsei? I will make them pay.

Though it does also make me think of the story Ralsei will start telling to the Jackenstien pumpkin in the overworld, where he describes the prince in his story as having “scarcely known anyone else” scarcely, not never, which implies Ralsei has met someone before.

Gaster maybe? We know he was experimenting with darkness based on entry 17, and the way Ralsei views darkners and their existance is quite cold and detached, the way a scientist might explain it, especially since Ralsei when explaining Darkners to Susie in chapter 3 even describes it somewhat like Gaster does in entry 17.

Who knows, not me, if you have ideas please share. Or if I’m forgetting another explanation elsewhere in the game.

[formlessnight]

People in the deltarune fandom i think take for granted the idea that they will “get their vessel back”

Often even in the context of hating on Kris, which i will not stand for >:(

But i seriously don’t see that happening, certainly not exactly in the way people seem to expect.

Im sure the vessel might come back in some form, but for the players use? I don’t really think so.

For one, the SOUL. Personally i think the soul is originally Kris’, and weather or not you fully believe that, in undeniable that the SOUL is entangled with Kris beyond simple possession.

The biggest piece of evidence for this is the fact that in Noelles house, in both the normal and weird route, when Kris hits and damages the soul, they are the one that feels it after, it effects their health points, despite being to the soul and not their body. They stagger after taking the soul back even, and in Noelle’s weirdroute dialogue it even seems to be detrimental to their health to go too long without the soul.

I think combined with other evidence, like Kris’s red eyes (seen even outside the context of Kris having the soul inside them), the first save slot having Kris’ name on it before we save over it, and a bunch more seems to indicate the soul is Kris’.

But weather or not you think this means the SOUL is in fact Kris’ soul, i think it shows that they are connected way too deeply to simply stick the soul in a new vessel and call it a day.

I think about during the Susie vs Lancer fight where the Soul seems to fly in from off-screen and even go back when a round of battle is done, like its physically drawn back to Kris.

Also i think thematically it wouldn’t work that well, i do think deltarune will subvert the original notion of “nobody can chose who they are in this world” but i expect it to be at the end if anywhere, and by that point why even give us the vessel back?

Im not trying it say it definitely wont happen, but i do think the idea of just getting plucked out of Kris and put in a new vessel with no repercussions or downsides would be ridiculous.

Plus this is kinda an extension from my other theories that the Soul is Kris’s and so are the light abilities associated with it, i’ve mentioned those elsewhere though.

If you have thoughts let me know.

[cloudyspade]

I feel like a lot of people think about the vessel returning but don't really think about what that might add to the story aside from being some kind of self-insert. A lot of interpretations I've seen involve replacing Kris' spot in the Fun Gang entirely, which feels kinda icky and scummy on their friends' part cause they are clearly suffering and for them to just abandon them over the vessel? Literally a shadow of themself? That's crazy. Also, I feel like a lot of people genuinely believe the vessel is us, but the game differentiates our name that we put in and the vessel's so I wouldn't even call the vessel a stand-in for us. Especially since it seems to have a bunch of ties to Kris. And Kris clearly seems to need their SOUL in order to function properly, so I would assume prolonged periods without their SOUL would kill them so just putting it into the vessel when the game clearly states that everyone has a SOUL and that it is the culmination of your being and ALSO the mysterious person on the phone saying that Kris can't enter dark worlds without a SOUL makes it seem like it's a lot more fatal than we realize.

Honestly, I feel like good practice regarding Deltarune is not taking everything at face value. This game has an ongoing narrative that exists outside of us. Yes, we created a vessel, but then the vessel was discarded. Why? The vessel seems to have some kind of significance to Kris specifically, but I don't really see many people look at that. Also, there's the fact that it's only when you create a chapter 1 save file where you get the opportunity to create it. Any other chapter and that sequence gets skipped entirely and gets default values aside from our name that we put in. If the vessel was meant to be used by us, this would be more important, wouldn't you think? We're missing a lot of information right now, so I think it's good not to marry any kind of ideas you might have under the assumption that anything could happen.

[formlessnight]

So true and perfectly put. How many ideas people seem set on about how Deltarune will turn out are destroyed by “what would that add narratively”.

Maybe not the same, but its how i feel a little about the idea that Susie isnt the girl from the prophecy, because… what would that add narratively? After chapter 4 where she already turns against the outcome of the prophecy, despite being initally comforted by the idea of being “the girl” i feel like thats the big betrayal of the prophecy. The reason she fights against it. What would doing it again add that that moment didn’t?

[formlessnight]

People in the deltarune fandom i think take for granted the idea that they will “get their vessel back”

Often even in the context of hating on Kris, which i will not stand for >:(

But i seriously don’t see that happening, certainly not exactly in the way people seem to expect.

Im sure the vessel might come back in some form, but for the players use? I don’t really think so.

For one, the SOUL. Personally i think the soul is originally Kris’, and whether or not you fully believe that, it’s undeniable that the SOUL is entangled with Kris beyond simple possession.

The biggest piece of evidence for this is the fact that in Noelles house, in both the normal and weird route, when Kris hits and damages the soul, they are the one that feels it after, it effects their health points, despite being to the soul and not their body. They stagger after taking the soul back even, and in Noelle’s weirdroute dialogue it even seems to be detrimental to their health to go too long without the soul.

I think combined with other evidence, like Kris’s red eyes (seen even outside the context of Kris having the soul inside them), the first save slot having Kris’ name on it before we save over it, and a bunch more seems to indicate the soul is Kris’.

But whether or not you think this means the SOUL is in fact Kris’ soul, i think it shows that they are connected way too deeply to simply stick the soul in a new vessel and call it a day.

I think about during the Susie vs Lancer fight where the Soul seems to fly in from off-screen and even go back when a round of battle is done, like its physically drawn back to Kris.

Also i think thematically it wouldn’t work that well, i do think deltarune will subvert the original notion of “nobody can chose who they are in this world” but i expect it to be at the end if anywhere, and by that point why even give us the vessel back?

Im not trying it say it definitely wont happen, but i do think the idea of just getting plucked out of Kris and put in a new vessel with no repercussions or downsides would be ridiculous.

Plus this is kinda an extension from my other theories that the Soul is Kris’s and so are the light abilities associated with it, i’ve mentioned those elsewhere though.

If you have thoughts let me know.

[formlessnight]

I don’t feel like i’ve seen much discussion about the princess ribbon in Deltarune. Which is honestly fair, because it might be one of the most inscrutable things in chapter 4, and thats saying a lot.

The only character it properly fits is Kris, which is a distinction made for basically no other item, the game goes out of its way to make it clear that no other character can wear it properly aside from Kris. A character who, while non-binary, almost feels like the least likely contender for its intended wearer out of the party members.

Ralsei implies at multiple points that Susie is in some ways expected to wear the ribbons despite her refusal, possibly by the prophecy itself. And while some have the idea that Susie isn’t the “girl” from the prophecy, the other main candidate- Noelle- cant wear the princess ribbon fully either. She can wear the ribbon part, but like with the others, the gloves don’t fit.

With trans Ralsei theory (based) it could even be argued by some that Ralsei fits the role of Princess, and is certainly the only one of the group to be called by a royal title. But the gloves don’t fit either.

It almost seems that they might ONLY fit a human. Kris is the only one in town, even if you’re someone who thinks that the Vessel is supposed to be the hero rather than Kris (don’t personally agree but thats neither here nor there) it makes somehow even less sense than it already does.

So whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy. Make no mistake, i think its awesome that a more feminine item is set out specifically for Kris, non-binary moment of all time, but the theory part of my mind is driven crazy by it.

It has to mean something. Deltarune is a game which often makes commentary on and even creates interesting subversions of RPG tropes and archetypes. The role of Princess is certainly an archetype of sorts, but Noelle feels more like the subversion of the damsel in distress trope, “the princess in need of rescuing” is something she subverts and struggles against in chapter 2. So its hard to know what association Kris has with it exactly.

Its a secret item you have to go out of your way for, and Its in the room with the Tail of Hell prophecy. Even wilder, what the hell does it have to do with the tail of hell prophecy? Anything? We don’t even really know anything about that prophecy to begin with.

I dunno, through Asgore and Toriel Kris can be somewhat associated with royalty and even considered… the nonbinary equivalent of Prince or Princess, Princex? (Someone let me know)

While the two aren’t directly royalty in Deltarune Toriels darkworld form does have a crown and based on the prophecy picture in chapter 4 so will Asgore, so its still there.

This has been kinda a whole lot of nothing, but its driving me nuts actually, please someone come up with a meaning for the Princess ribbon and let me know your thoughts.

[formlessnight]

No one will see this, which is good, because its mostly a half thought-out ramble.

People dont even treat headcannons as headcannons these days, theres no awareness of the line between a subjective interpretation of a text and the intended message or even real events of a text. People dont want to add to a story or consider how elements they add might interact interestingly with the base story in ways they personally find interesting, they want it to be true and want the plausible deniability that it already is.

Wild, crazy, its not even death of the author, its death of the text. Whats the point of engaging with a new story if you decide it already says and has all the things you already want and never engage with the parts where it doesn’t. Just feels like it devalues stories to me idk.

Maybe it ain’t that serious, but its personally frustrating to meeeee.

If anyone disagrees i would be interested to hear. That is if someone finds this post out in the void.

I wanna be clear i love headcannons, but i prefer to engage with them while being aware that it wont align exactly with the text because it isn’t part of it, but it doesn’t make the headcannon less valuable either. Both can exist in harmony if you let it.