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@fullmetalirin
I feel like comparing how 03 and BH tackle the concept of genocide and how they both handle their themes around the topic. I’m going to avoid commentary on how both shows handle race specifically because I’m frankly not qualified to talk about it, but I do have quite a bit to say about how writing and themes. Analysis under the read more.
Weiterlesen
I hadn't thought of Dante through that thematic lens, but it makes a lot of sense.
Not what I’m writing my current meta on but wow. I’m disgusted enough to make a post about this panel.
Because fighting back after the peace negotiations were rejected and the alchemists were sent in to annihilate your entire race is so immoral.
No but really because some poor sap is inevitably going to be willfully blind to this, so let me reiterate in italicized sentences.
Bradley just rejected the peace negotiations initiated by Ishvalans a few panels before this.
The state military is using alchemists in order to kill everyone, not just combatants, in Ishval.
They have proposed going after the state military, not civilians.
Yet they are still demonized for wanting to do so. Why is resistance treated like a petty vendetta here?
Um…wow.
This is an example of an author trying to make a profound point about how “we’re all just humans who are driven by the same vices”, and in the process portraying violent resistance against a campaign of genocide – and an understandable hatred of the genocidal military – as patently wrong.
In other words: fuck this shit.
Yep see it’s scenes like this that I think of when ppl try to say that fma is the best manga and brotherhood is the best anime esp. when it comes to mature topics like this. Anything that says that the oppressed are just as bad as the oppressor if they want to fight back is blatantly immoral. The mangaka wanted to show shades of grey saying that both sides had their issues when it came to this storyline but because of the way she wrote it it doesn’t work. Sure there was a “big bad” behind the scenes pulling the strings in Amestris but any soldier had the right to refuse continue in the massacre as evidenced by Armstrong who after seeing the absolute carnage decided not to participate (which his sister constantly brings up as him bringing shame to their family’s honor) yet Hawkeye and Mustang chose to stay and participate.
Yet it’s obviously written that we’re supposed to have sympathy for these two even tho they participated in the slaughter of innocent lives. Yet Scar, who after seeing all of his people massacred and then waking up with his brother’s arm attached to him implying that his only family sacrificed himself to save his life, decided to use alchemy, the weapon used against his people, to kill state alchemists, not civilians, but actual army officers is narratively supposed to be in the wrong because ~killing is bad~ ummm excuse me???? Where were the shades of grey so generously given to Roy and Riza who actively destroyed an entire race because they were “following orders”???? Yeah the whole Ishvalan story line esp. how it ends is really trash but what pisses me off is how fandom holds Mustang and Hawkeye up in blind adulation while acting like Scar is the epitome of evil for accidentally killing Winry’s parents in a haze of pain and PTSD and freeing Nina from her suffering after her father mutated her (which is obviously the worst tragedy in the story…not the actual genocide of course).
while searching for fma 03 posts on Twitter I saw someone claim fma 03s female characters are worse than fmabs bc it puts them thru so much pain and trauma w no recovery but like, that's just not true?
Rose stands out as pushing the envelope a bit and fair enough, but even then she moves forward and survives and gets a happy ending. Izumi dying off-screen is not great but that's more emblematic of COS production problems than misogyny. Lust and Sloth come to tragic ends, but so do the male Homunculi, and Lust dies in the process of fighting to reclaim her autonomy, not as a helpless victim. Winry, sheska, riza, Noa all get happy endings. Nina is perhaps the closest to just flat out fridging but that came from the manga.
I just don't think it's true that every female character is subjected to nothing but trauma with no hope of salvation, but also, fma 03 is just as relentless towards its male characters? Where exsctly are the male characters not touched by pain and suffering in this series - Fuery? Havoc? it's just a bizarre take all around
#unpopular opinion but 2003 has better fem rep OBVIOUSLY ITS NOT A FEMINIST PEACE OF MEDIA but better than bh where the only way fem#characters are relevant to is through them suffering so men can have heroic moment (via @fma-slothposting)
Re: Nina, I think it's also worth pointing out that Nina was much more developed in 2003. In the manga she shows up just to immediately die, in 2003 she gets an additional episode of normal life and the Elrics live with her for months. It's still a fridging, but she no longer exists just to be a tragic victim. The characters and audience have actual investment in her.
What is it? You did say you wanted to see my real face, didn’t you?
My only criticism of this scene is that I feel it only makes sense if Ed had seen a picture of Hoenheim’s son beforehand that allowed him to recognize this face. While you can definitely see the relation after Envy explains it, in the moment he just looks like some guy, which makes Ed having such a strong immediate reaction seem strange. Maybe such a setup scene was planned, but got cut?
A picture Ed saw is a picture Envy could also have seen (and seen him seeing, given just how much Ed was being stalked which he's figured out somewhat by this point), so while it'd at least be clearer to the viewer what just happened, it creates the problem that Ed is now reacting like this to something even more likely to be faked to just mess with him.
I think the best way it works is if Ed is just having that bad of a reaction from Envy suddenly looking like a human to remind Ed that they were all made from humans and fundamentally just are weird humans (but it's still so fakeable given it's the shapeshifting one doing it), or if the show had done better at establishing Hoenheim's phenotype was extremely unusual in the context of FMA due to most of them getting turned into philosopher stone slurry, so Ed could just go "oh fuck, the only other people who look like that are my dad, my brother, and my reflection". But they don't look nearly distinctive enough, and also Hoenheim was body hopping and with it being a major plot point that Dante has jumped between very different looking bodies, which makes it more like Envy is making up a face that looks kind of like the three of them because he just wants Ed to realize his "real face" is their brother, and Ed's reaction is really just down to him already being in the middle of a meltdown and even in that case, it should look way more like them.
It's a mess on a lot of levels, even if the concept's really cool as a story beat.
Actually, maybe the way it really should've worked is if the anime had realized they needed to show past-Hoenheim looking really different in time for the ending. Ed could find the last surviving records of that guy, realize it's his dad's original body and original sins, then Envy turns into someone who doesn't look like Ed or Al but does look like that old picture, which would also be a visual reminder of the people Hoenheim wiped out - from how weird anime Envy acts, I think it's even plausible that Hoenheim's original son wasn't his from after becoming demigods but could've died in the first slurrying either by accident or because Hoenheim sacrificed him when the initial deaths weren't enough to finish the reaction. Then when Envy's nomming on souls, he's eating people annihilated and turned into raw material in the same way his original died, and he deals with this by being the one who insists the hardest he's not the original or human at all, and freaking out at the realization you're beating up the last echo of the original victims who also got fucked over by your shitty dad is certainly a worthy thing to add to the trauma pile that is the final episodes.
[Image: Tumblr reply reading “huh?? what sexy content did the original anime cut out?”]
It genuinely boggles my mind how every FMAB fan seems to have perfectly erased Lust’s death from their memory.
hughes: *is part of a military imperialistic government and has actually taken lives of thousands ppl of color*
fans: he's so nice and pure!!!! he's perfect!!!! <3
scar: *is a victim of genocide, his brother died protecting him, has likely lost his entire family to the massacre, thus decides to kill all those participant in the genocide of his people*
fans: he's a meanie who kills war criminals :/// scar needs to "redeem" himself and forgive the racists and murderers bc violence is bad :////
when do we get to discuss how als determination to study alchemy and equivalency to get his brother back at the end of 03 is just. The cycle starting again. The snake eating its tail. There is nothing new under the sun. This story will repeat and repeat and repeat and there is nothing we can do to stop it
And the fact that everyone just… lets him. Izumi can’t say no to him, the rockbells let him run off in search for clues about his brother, exactly the same as they’ve done before.
It’s exactly what Ed meant when he said there is no war that we don’t all play a part in. All of them are pushing that boulder back up the hill again and again.
Its exactly what Envy meant when they introduced “the new Sloth” to Greed. Just like the ouroborus, they’re all destined to repeat and repeat because that is the nature of those who create a homunculus.
In 03, the boys don’t get to grow up and live past the events they fought through, they are stuck in their mistakes and the circularity of their decisions, facilitated by those who have made those decisions before them.
(Just like Liore, finding one false idol after another after another. Like Scar, who lost a brother and sought to take a brother. Like Dante and Hohenheim, repeating life ad infinitum together.)
Adding onto this, I think this is *exactly* why Edward chooses to go back to Earth at the end of CoS instead of staying in Amestris. His whole life has been a vicious cycle. He saw the cycle in Al, and it was fueled by his and specifically Edward’s past actions and dreams. Now that Al knew he was alive, and Ed knew Al was alive, the fight could stop and they could both just *stop.*
Of course, the power of alchemy and bending rules largely aided in Ed’s cycle. At least on the other side of the gate, he couldn’t be tempted to reach farther than his own limitations anymore. But he can’t just stop either.
So instead of extending beyond himself for personal dreams and goals, he’s set on playing a positive role in the world. Like he says to Al, they can’t keep living their lives like their dreams are the only things that matter. Everyone plays a part.
Edward finally, finally understood all is one and one is all. I can only hope things will go right for them this time.
You did this to her [killed Dante] didn’t you?
Greed: Blame me if you want. I really don’t care.
Ed: How could you? She was helpless!
Tell me Edward Elric how could you go so far to protect your little brother?
And what does that have to do with anything?!
Feelings can be hard to explain.
oh my god i get it. this little exchange always confused me too. so greed knows that dante isn’t actually dead, and has just set him up to die. and she set him up so he’d be killed specifically by edward when ed comes in and sees dante’s dead body. greed knows this. but he doesn’t plead innocence or rat dante out because he still has complicated feelings towards her. he still loves her. and he’s willing to die for her to protect her. holy shit. “feelings can be hard to describe” followed by that frown, knowing he’s about to be killed and accepting it. i think he’s also just giving up here. his friends just gave themselves up for him, the person he still loves wants him dead and he knows fighting her would be fruitless, so he just. lets this happen. he fights edward knowing the outcome. wow.
“how could you sacrifice your own needs so recklessly for the benefit of someone else?” because love. even when its messy and complicated.
can’t stop thinking about how ed’s relationship to his creation is the biggest showcase of his deadly sin. how sloth (the homunculus) brings out ed’s own sloth.
episode 13 is the first time they run into each other. there’s a clear shot of ed staring at her and at that point the gears are already turning.
then, a few episodes later, she shows up once again, and al makes a comment about “hearing mom’s voice” and it cuts to ed looking like THIS.
ed’s a smart kid. he’s already starting to put two and two together at this point. and yet it still takes dozens of episodes for the reveal to happen. and in between, we had a scene where al begins talking to ed about the possibility of their creation becoming a homonculus. and what does ed do? he cuts him off and changes the subject.
so, if ed’s had a suspicion about who sloth really was, why does he shut out al’s mention of it? why does he shut down when she reveals herself as a homunculus?
because even if ed knows the truth deep down, he doesn’t accept it. he can’t accept it until he has to, until he’s forced to hear sloth ask him why he didn’t make her right. and then, he freezes.
and how ironic is it. not only did ed’s sloth lead him to bottle up / ignore the hints about sloth herself, but when he finally does see her, he’s catatonic.
rewatching fullmetal alchemist after you know that selim is pride is the funniest thing in the fucking world
He goes to SCHOOL. “he’s the top of his class and got the best grade on his assignment” yeah I bet he did. I bet this prideful bitch wouldn’t be able handle getting anything less than it.
They got kimblee out of jail because they were hard on hands that’s SO funny because pride is RIGHT THERE!!!!!! But they can’t use him bc you know why? He’s too busy doing his ENGLISH HOMEWORK
EXACTLY!!!!!!! Pride is ready at any moment to slaughter an entire family but first he has to eat his 4.99 chicken fingers that his mommy got him off the kids menu!!!!!!!!
Alright now no one tell anyone
I do have to wonder why Pride does this…? There’s no reason why he has to interact with larger society and go through all the motions of being a good law-abiding child. The Bradleys could easily just say he’s homeschooled or going to some private school no they can’t tell you the name, who’s gonna call them on it?
I strongly suspect the Doylist answer is that the author hadn’t fully decided on Selim being Pride during the early arcs, but if we want to posit Watsonian explanations, I think the only one that makes sense is that Pride actively enjoys playacting at being a human child. Which… does not make sense with the rest of his characterization, unfortunately.
"bRothErHoOd hAs bEtTer aNiMAtiOn--"
Shut the fuck up, 2003 gave Edward BICEPS and DEFINED MUSCLES all in dramatic lighting. Show some respect.
2003 also understands how to use lighting instead of making everything discordantly oversaturated.
I watched one video comparing fma 2003 and brotherhood and it had many things I had issues with, but since you're a Scar enthusiast I want to ask what do you think of "FMA 2003 Scar and Greed die before they have any proper development, while in brotherhood Scar changes sides and sees the error of his ways" ?
to be perfectly honest, at this point in twenty fucking twenty-one, if you still think Scar was fundamentally wrong and needed “development” because he was being mean to the genocidal racists, you should probably sit in a few high school literature classes before you continue trying to analyze media in public.
Scar got plenty of development in 03 and ended his arc at an appropriate, climactic point. I feel like the only way someone can think otherwise is indeed if they think that they only way to “develop” a character like him is to strip him of the extremism that made him interesting in the first place.
Greed didn't need development either, for the record. BH's cast gets way too bloated; I appreciate 03!Greed's willingness to serve his role and exit the stage on a reasonable timescale.
#see: this is why i don’t fully buy into the ‘rape as plot device’ argument #this wasn’t about making edward angst #it was about MAKING HIM UNDERSTAND just what these soldiers were putting the liorans through #it was taking this privileged little boy and saying: you don’t understand our pain #and the rape part is only implied #and not at all sexualized #this is yet another time that edward is put in his place by scar #and has his neat black-and-white morality challenged by the messiness of reality (via amarielah)
Look, if 2003 Scar met fmab Scar, he would be APALLED at the shit Mustang gets in the end.
03 Scar: So, what punishment does the "Hero of Ishval" receive in this world? Surely, it will be well deserved.
Fmab Scar: Roy Mustang, "Hero of Ishval" aka a legit war criminal and aid in our peoples genocide? Oh he got off SCOTT FREE. They didn't even charge him with war crimes. :)
03 Scar: .....but....he still will have to live without his eyesight, thus his alchemy will be useless....right?
Fmab Scar: Funny story, he got his eyesight returned to him using a Philosopher stone made of ISHVALAN LIVES, thus gaining more alchemy knowledge for free. He doesn't even need his gloves now or a circle. :) :)
03 Scar: it can't get worse. How is this possible?
Fmab Scar: after I killed the Füher responsible for our genocide, guess what.....Mustang becomes the new Füher of Amestris. Ah, don't worry though, he put me in charge of rebuilding Ishval with an Ishvalan soilder in his no longer corrupt facist military! :) :) :)
03 Scar:
Scar in 2003: I died after creating a philosopher's stone to save Alphonse Elric, Edward Elric's younger brother. They remind me of me and my older brother--and I couldn't let them sit there and die. I can never forgive the Amestrian military, but I was wrong to try and harm them. Now, I die satisfied with my work.
Scar in fmab: *long drag of a cigarette* I shoulda smacked the FUCK outta people I chose to forgive.
Thanks @crocordile cause you're absolutley right. Lemme revise my statement.
Scar in 2003: I died after creating a philosopher's stone to save Alphonse Elric, Edward Elric's younger brother. They remind me of me and my older brother--and I couldn't let them sit there and die. I can never forgive the Amestrian military for the horrible crimes they comitted against my people, but I want to stop them from doing it ever again. I'll give my life to save the people of Liore, and send a message to them. I lost my life, but I made peace with myself and my brother.
Basically, fmab Scar was cheated oughtta his revenge and the Amestrian Military got off WAY too easily.
His last words in 03 are literally saying his vengeance will never die and he will never rest until his enemies are destroyed. His plan was always to destroy the Amestrian military; saving Alphonse was an unplanned opportunity. Don't really understand how people can miss that.
some more disorganized thoughts from my fma 03 rewatch:
the arc in dublith is…really sloppy. which i knew, but still. there’s no connection between wrath and greed, and the two arcs clash instead of complementing one another. they spend too much time on yock island, which isn’t a very good location, and i found the whole thing kind of boring and haphazard.
i wanted more greed. he’s such a memorable character and left such a huge impression that i’m always surprised by how little screen time he actually has.
i actually prefer how far 03 takes the oppression of the ishbalans. like, oh, look, it’s your buddies havoc and fuery! they’re uhhhhh packing traumatized genocide survivors onto a train and sending them to “designated camps.” those funny soldier characters you’ve been enjoying are instruments of a horrible fascist society, what did you expect? in brotherhood, the atrocities of the soldiers are pretty much all in the past. roy and riza did Bad Things, but that’s over now and they’re ready to atone for their sins. 03′s like, these guys are still in the military, so why shouldn’t they still be doing this stuff? sure, roy’s not shooting doctors and burning people alive, but he’s not exactly making life easier for the ishbalan survivors.
scar is so much better in 03 than brotherhood. he’s an actual character right up until the end.
there’s way way way more insight into a) ishbalan society and b) the mindset and trauma of ishbalan survivors than br/otherhood ever provided.
them explaining that ishbal actually does have its own historical version of alchemy that’s only fallen out of favor relatively recently, pointing out that a) just because a society isn’t industrialized doesn’t mean it’s simpler than yours and b) religions and societies aren’t stagnant monoliths….chef kiss.
The Dublith arc was even sloppier in Brotherhood, I’d argue. Greed just happens to be hanging out in the same neighborhood as Izumi for no reason. 03 creates a connection by tying Dante to Izumi, and also foreshadows Greed in the previous arc.
they really made edward elric say he “didn’t see color” in fmab while in 03 he said “i was scared of scar the first time i saw him, only because of his red eyes and brown skin. but then i learned i didn’t know anything about ishbalans except what my country told me, so i realized we all have to go out there and learn for ourselves” and people still out here defending brohood
