Karen and Frank: a deep dive into their relationship
Daredevil season 2 edition (part 1)
Okay so…the time has finally come. I’ve been wanting to analyse their dynamic ever since i got into the fandom but in order to do that, i had to thoroughly watch anything these two are involved in together and be able to build my own vision and thoughts around them.
i didnt take any kind of notes as i’m approaching to do this (i probably should have), i’m more of making things up as i go. of one thing i’m sure of and it is that I wanna divide these metas into sections, so i will go season by season where karen and frank appear together and/or are mentioned. i also wanna preface by saying i don’t know how long these metas are gonna take because i procrastinate a lot lol. I plan on finishing them hopefully before brand new day comes out as i think that might add some potentially new analysis material
with further ado let’s being with the birth of kastle. where it all began: daredevil season 2 (also buckle up cause it's gonna be long)
let's start from the beginning, shall we?
Episode 1 of Daredevil season 2 aka the better show of daredevil that there is
to be fair, there isnt much "kastle" to discuss. it's frank's introduction, so naturally we're supposed to see him through the lenses of big bad crazy guy who just shot up a hospital so i'll just say what i found amusing about this scene.
first of all its the fact that at some point we see frank through karen's perspective and i like how he's in the dim light, it's obviously not to reveal his face completely yet, but i also like to think its that way to show that his figure is still a mystery for karen as well. what i also like about the scene is the fact that karen reacts immediately to the danger and escapes successfully (later of course we will find out that it was never frank's intention to kill her)
Now onto Episode 2.
This is where the magic start to happen. First thing that got me is when while Karen is trying to collect data to put Grotto in witness protection program he tells her
which she then promptly replies with "i'm terrified" but the truth is, she doesnt look the part. now, shock can come in many different ways, but i do believe her interest in what happened and why it happened, sorta took over the fear. indeed when moments later, agent mahoney hints at having a lead about who the mysterious killing machine man is, karen is immediately in game.
I do find also interesting the way agent Mahoney describes him:
The comparison why DD's ways of turning things around is immediately poignant. This guy might be a vigilante, but his methods? Completely different from the hero of the city. It draws an immediate rift between the two and how common people see them even though then Mahoney adds how the view on how he operates is split, even between the cops.
From a later scene, we learn that Frank's targets are not random. They're very thought out and precise. He actively seeks the people that he want to kill and doesnt stop until they're dead.
Karen learns there that the identity of the killer is still an open investigation and that they're using a code name for his case, which of course, is none other than the Punisher.
And that's when Karen's investigation actually starts. She tells Foggy that she could have been one of the people who died and despite Foggy reassuring her, she sorta of things some kind of sick karma is getting in her way, like a punishment indeed (and we know exactly why she feels that way. she has dipped directly in being blamed for somebody's death, her brother at that. and she killed Wesley the immediate chance she took. I think it's important to note that just like Frank doesnt hesitate killing criminals, she didnt hesitate killing Wesley).
Karen then goes to Matt's house for comfort and tells him how she doesnt really like being used for target pratice which is some foreshadowing in a way, to her being used as a bait much later on.
The two proceed to talk about the punisher situation and how they need to move in order to protect Grotto from him. Matt asks Karen "do you think he's crazy?" to which she replies no, but she also thinks that enabling Daredevil's actions is what brought on the surface other men like him. Of course Matt's irked by the comparison. He's not like the guy, he wouldnt kill a soul even if he tried. But of course, Karen doesnt know that, cause at this point in the story, she doesnt even know DD and Matt are the same person (there's also an interesting underground message about gun control i feel like but it's not the topic of this text).
Then Karen says:
And Matt of course going along his own morals asks Karen if she thinks that the Punisher could be a good person. She has no (a bit reluctantly imo) and remarks that it could be anyone to which Matt isnt visibly pleased, at all. It's a slow but steady beginning to a rift between the two that's gonna be much bigger later.
Reyes without Karen and Foggy knowing, tries to use Grotto as bait for Frank to show up but he's got them all figured out, gets stopped by Daredevil from killing Grotto.
Episode 3
Little overview of the episode: Grotto is upset the police used him as a bait (without anyone kwowing) and doesnt want to collaborate with Karen and Foggy anymore so Karen is still trying to figure out a way to get out this messy situation. Meanwhile, Frank keeps Daredevil tied up on a roof as we learn a little bit more about his motives and why he operates the way he does. We learn that of course, his views are in starch contrast to Matt's.
Karen doesn't want Nelson & Murdock to lose the case and asks Reyes's right hand for the Punisher files, without specifying what she needs them for. She's however, very determined to get those files and she succeeds. Frank manages to kill Grotto despite DD's pleads to stop.
It's night and we're back in Karen's office. She's examining the files, which contain a bunch of very gruesome deaths. The last thing she gets out of the envelope, is an x-ray of his skull (which is an iconic scene if you ask me) and she notices there's a small hole on the left side of his skull.
Episode 4
The scene where Matt says "You never said you had a brother" "You never asked" sort of struck to me at the time of first watching it, cause it felt to me like it was natural for her to open up to Frank about anedoctes from her childhood for example (which we will see later on).
During Grotto's funeral, Karen says she never liked the idea of him dying alone, which made me think about the scene where she talks about loneliness with Frank in TP s1. Karen is a compassionate human and that compassion shines through even when the person they're talking about isnt a good person at all.
And then we're back talking about the x-ray. Here Karen has an intuition. Frank was obviously shot by someone and maybe he's not the worst that's out there. Maybe Reyes is covering something worse. Since the beginning Karen has pretty much never believed for Frank to be the worst thing that has happened to NY and encourages Matt and Foggy to find him instead.
"Punisher's a lunatic" "But you care anyway?" and much of her response to me felt like reporter!karen was speaking. She's curious, she is certain there's more to him to uncover and adds on to say that humans are complicated species (which could be a self reflect).
And she's absolutely right! Then Matt calls her compassionate (something we agree on), compares her to a saint and Karen remarks once again "I'm no saint" which might still allude at what happened with her brother and Wesley. That guilt never stops following her around, just like the thought of having responsability in his family's death never stops haunting Frank.
Karen goes on her little side quest and finds George Buck to know more about the x-ray. She learns that no one came to visit him at the hospital only the "suits" as the man calls them. And this is how Karen discovers his home address (brilliant work gotta say).
She enters in Frank's home and starts digging around for proofs. We see her in Lisa's room and that's the moment she realizes that this guy, this huge menace NY is facing had a family and was a father, as well as learning he was a marine.
I think it's also interesting to point out that Frank's not emotionless. Aside from suffering PTSD from his family being killed, he had a dog he was affectionate to and it's what causes him to give up and confess to Finn where's the money so the dog wont get hurt. It's a small thing but it's worth noting that he's not at all detatched from caring about something.
After help him escape from Finn, there's another important conversation between Frank and DD where Frank says how he was never scared while he was fighting in the marine, it was the return home that was, the fear of dying on the plane and the first time she reunited with his family after coming back. You can see it simply from his eyes how much love he had for them, especially in the way he talks about his daughter. We're in front of a deeply traumatized man, whose losses shaped what he is today, just like Karen's losses. Their biggest difference I think is, that Frank doesn't feel any guilt for what he does: he believes whoever he killed deserved it while Karen is still actively trying to find out if there's some kind of punishment reserved for her for what she did.
Frank does, however, feel guilt for not reading Lisa her favorite book cause he was tired, which ended up being the last night he could have ever had the chance to do that.
Karen learns through the news at Josie's that Frank was found by the police (but we know it was actually DD) and gets upset that Frank's being described as a "cold-blooded psychopath" because she knows Reyes is gonna use that to her advantage, to the point that even Matt jokes about her disappointment. She also says that's in moment like those that she remembers how precious life can be. And i think thats something else she has in common with with Frank. Despite everything they've been through they both want to live. Sure, Frank might struggle here and there to find a reason to, but ultimately he has a job to finish that he most definitely does not want to die for. The more accurate question would be if he's found something to live for. but we'll get to that someday.
Episode 5
Almost exactly where we left off, Karen's still upset the press is painting Frank as a "deranged lunatic". She now knows there's more to the story, its not an intuition anymore, she has actual proof and so does Matt, even if he can't tell.
While talking to Matt and Foggy, Karen ends up slipping up about Frank having a family so she's forced to confess she broke into his house, which isnt obviously met with enthusiasm from the two lawyers.
Foggy especially isnt too keen on digging the situation deeper than it already is, but you can tell from her face, Karen's not gonna stop there.
She indeed goes to the Bulletin to talk to Mr Ellison about the inaccuracies about Frank's articles. Karen points out he's a war hero and that he had a family, that died arount the same time in was in the hospital after being shot in the head. She manages to convince Mr Ellison to roam through the Bulletin's archive to find more material in exchange of the Bulletin having the exclusive of what she finds.
And she does.
Episode 6
We begin with Karen correcting public defender Roth about the inaccurate things about the time Frank shot up the hospital. Karen also learns through him that Frank is awake at the hospital and that there's a possibility he could get the death penalty which none of the trio is thrilled about.
And it's actually Matt who suggests to deal with Frank's case to get him a plea deal, which for Karen only means one thing: saving Frank's life. Even since the beginning and without knowing him deep down, that's always been one of her priorities. She even dismisses Foggy's remarks about Frank trying to shoot her.
After convincing Foggy, the 3 go to the hospital. I found funny that Matt and Karen walk in there holding hands and let go as soon as they enter the room, almost symbolizing a rift between them is about to form.
After Matt introduces himself and essentially explains they're there to help him we finally get their first eye contact!
She's so eager to talk to him she crosses the red tape and shows him the picture of his family she found in his house. And finally we get to their first real interaction. You can tell Frank is absolutely surprised by Karen's approach and Matt actually has to hold her back while Frank keeps asking over and over why she was in his house.
Those lingering stares really hit
And that interaction is important cause it's what pushes Frank to actually accept Matt and Foggy as his defendants. Karen Page is the spark that makes it happen.
Another very funny thing
While Matt goes with Elektra, Karen and Foggy stay at the hospital to look for his charges and things that could help them with the case, which means we're finally at one their most iconic scenes. I swear it hit like crack the first time i saw it.
Foggy is talking to Frank but he's not even listening. His eyes are completely fixated on Karen from the moment she entered the room.
"I'm guilty, I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to her. " chills you guys, history was made.
Frank then asks to talk to her alone, which Foggy doesnt approve of, but Karen doesnt seem to mind. At all.
Frank goes straight to the point. He wants to know what Karen knows about his family. Karen reads him the police report that was made the day his family was killed and Frank says it's all bullshit, but unfortunately it's what Reyes is working with.
Then Karen asks Frank what she remembers about that day, so that she can help him figure things out. It's through this dialogue that Frank reveals to Karen his own guilt about not being able to help his family; "My job was to keep them safe and I didnt."
Karen feels a bit uneasy and offers to come back [when he feels better i suppose] to which Frank pleads her to stay. And she does.
Frank tells Karen that she was never in danger that night at the hospital when he was targeting Grotto. He never intended to kill her and he wanted her to know what (he also takes pride in the fact that he's a skilled shooter i guess?). He only kills people who deserve it. Plus, Karen didnt actually know about the awful things Grotto had done.
Impatient, Karen asks why Frank asked her to stay and he replies that he's afraid his memories will go away. The conversation then shifts to the time Karen broke into his house. He asks her some precise questions, like the position of the plates and if the piano is still there, reminiscing about how Frank jr would hide cookies in the bench which allows Karen herself to tap into a childhood memory of hers as well, which helps him smile a little bit. "I guess we need to get away sometimes". They certainly both tend to run away from their problems in a way or another.
Then they talk about the kids' bedrooms and all the toys that belonged to his kids, Karen is almost on the verge of tears. Once again, her compassion shows. And I think what's also so beautiful about this scene is how heartwarmed Karen gets hearing him express his human side. He's not talking as a killing machine right now. He's talking as a dad and as a human being and Karen sees that. She always did.
She then hands him the family picture she snuck from his house and Frank thanks her for helping him remember (joyful memories might i add, Karen is a positive stance in the mess that his head is in that moment) which also prompts him to let her ask him any question she wants.
Foggy comes back and tells them the death penalty is off the table, however he would have to face 1 life sentence and parole in 25 years, without the possibilty of protective custody in jail, which would leave him in grave danger among all the other criminals (not that Frank seems to care).
Foggy tells Frank all he has to do when Reyes comes in is plead guilty and he will never have to deal with them again. Karen and Frank glance a look at each other and he confirms he will.
He doesn't.
Foggy is flabbergasted but Karen? Not so much. "Maybe he just wants the truth." Defending him till the end!
So now a trial is going to happen.
Episode 7
Foggy suggest to go for the insanity route which Karen is immediately against. She's not very convinced Frank's insane, probably not at all and she's also backed by Matt in that.
"If Castle's goes into general public, he's as good as dead."
They talk about convincing him to bring PTSD to the table and it's funny to me that Karen already know she has a shot at doing so cause he wants to talk to her alone, already had him wrapped around her finger.
Matt doesnt like the fact that Karen has to do all of this alone but she's resolute. Plus Frank doesn't scare her. She's the one who saw the good in him from the start.
And...we get to another of my favorite scenes in this season.
Karen goes to prison to talk to Frank. She explains how they're thinking to bring up a character witness to his trial and narrate everything he's been through, to show the court what kind of person he is. He's not happy about the PTSD suggestion. He considers it an insult for those who actually suffer from it, and remarks how it wasnt the battlefield that made his life go to shit. It was the after.
Karen is fed up with his bullshit (probably the only person on the planet who can deal with it) and warns him that if he doesn't cooperate with them his family will never see justice and he will rot in jail.
#gagged him so bad
he's so pleased seeing her attitude i swear to god
He doesnt budge on the PTSD but says the name of his ex colonel as the witness.
the boy is flirtinggggg
"I went over those one hundred times" "Sure, but you haven't done it with me."
I dont need to add commentary these speaks for themselves. I do wanna add that this is the scene where to me Karen gave him something new to look forward to. A purpose.
Karen goes then back to Foggy to summarize what Frank said and tells him to try to immedesimate himself in Frank to truly understand how he feels about the loss of his family.
"Your family isnt coming back and you watch them die in front of you." She's the one who always understood his pain better than anyone else.
Foggy gives Karen hope they can get a mistrial.
And finally we get to the trial.
Their mission is to prove that the autopsy report of Frank's family are faked. After the first part of the trial, Karen goes to Matt's apartment. The two share a conversation about the case. Matt asks if she's ever thought about going to law school. Karen doesnt seem to enthusiastic about it, says that often times the truth gets lost.
While they talking, Karen mentions that ever since dealing with Frank's case, she's being asking herself if there's a difference between saving lives and preventing lives from needed to be saved. Matt doesn't agree with her, stating that while deserving of a fair trial, Frank killed people. Karen rebutts saying that he killed bad people. She doesnt think he has the right to kill, but she understand the need to seek vengeance after what happened to his family.
"Vengeance is not justice, what he's doing is completely wrong." "Right or wrong you can't deny that it works."
Karen's moral compass kinda goes crazy here. On one hand, she doesnt condone the killing, on the other she does see it as effective. It does nothing but show the different povs of Karen and Matt, and how he's not pleased with her views.
The trial continues. The doctor admits the autopsy report were altered.
Episode 8
It's time for the character witness to speak for Frank. The colonel speaks highly of him and describes him as a "man who would gladly give his life to keep others safe." (Indeed Frank saved the colonel himself from certain death).
They then talk about the condition Frank is suffering due to the injury on his skull, which Frank is skeptical about but Karen urges him to keep listening.
After it concludes, a kid from the public jury yells out that Frank killed his father. Later Karen and Frank are talking in jail. He admits he did kill the kid's dad to which Karen replies that she can't judge him. And then again we know why she doesnt. Karen has a dark side in her, just like him.
I'm concluding the first part here. Why you may ask? Cause it doesn't let me upload any more pictures and I think actual images are more compelling than just narrating through it. If you managed to actually get to this point, I applaud you for being brave! I apologize in advance for any grammatical error or mispells, I don't have the time to proof read unfortunately but i hope it's at least entertaining and doesn't feel like a waste of time. See you very very soon with part 2! 🖤🩵
